Who Was Nimrod? Why Does It Matter?

June 30, 2012

Who is Nimrod? Why does it matter? What does he say about the first book ascribed to Moses, who supposedly lived at around 1500 BCE?

Well, the first thing is, we really don't have anything from the time people like to say Genesis was written, saying who he was. There was a story where he was connected with the tower of Babel, or where he went up against Abraham, but these stories came after Genesis, and well after when literalists and even most scholars say the first book was written.

Nimrod was spelled in hebrew as נמחד, or as transliterated nmrd (no vowels written, but they existed). Who was he? According to Genesis, he was a king of Assyria, and it seems the very first. Was he? Well... if this is what Genesis meant, then he is the equivelent oft the hellenistic Ninus.

Let's be clear though, it's obvious from the name, Ninus never existed. Ninus seems to me to be synonymous with Belus. Why? Because, Belus is the hellenized form of "bel/Belu" in Akkadian. Furthermore, Ninus is the hellenized form of Akkadian/Assyrian/Babylonian loan from Sumerian "nin". Bel and Nin meant the same thing, Lord, though in sumerian, it technically meant lady, it could be used for both males and females.

Indeed, some scholars have speculated that Nimrod is a reduced form of Ninmarad. Though never attested, there is an Enmarad, and in my own opinion, it seems that Ninmarad might just be an alternative form of Enmarad. Though never actually attested, its not a farfetched idea to suppose it did.

Who was Enmarad? It was a name for Marduk, and Ninurta, the three tended to get syncretized when it came to symbolism, what they were God of, etc... Also, in Niniveh, Also, Marduk was the founder of Babylon, according to the Enuma Elish story, which would explain where the idea of a God being the founder of Nineveh, or in Genesis' case, Assyria, came from.

According to Philo, it was the belief at the time that the Gods were simply deified ancestors that the Babylonians (and others) worshipped.

According to the Book of Micah, Nimrod was the first warrior (Ninurta being both a hunter and a warrior, and indeed, the first).

So Nimrod, as it seems, was a syncretized form of Ninurta and Marduk. The only problem is, the Marduk being found in this Nimrod figure, was something that didn't predate the NeoBabylonian period. Also, the name Nimrod seems to have undergone reductions phonologically, which suggests that the story found in Genesis has to be even after the NeoBabylonian era, which leaves us with the Neoassyrian era or later for Genesis.

Just something I thought of and put together.

June 30, 2012

He was the brother of Dipshit and Numbskull.

Sorry, couldn't help it.

June 30, 2012

He was the brother of Dipshit and Numbskull.

Sorry, couldn't help it.

This is sumposed to be super serial okayyy?

June 30, 2012

He was the brother of Dipshit and Numbskull.

Sorry, couldn't help it.

http://www.examiner.com/article/did-bugs-bunny-change-the-meaning-of-nimrod

Babylonian Dream, you have the most interesting posts. Thanks for sharing this.

June 30, 2012

You have done a great deal of research here, wow.

Cities of humans had so many gods for everything and nobody wanted to piss a one of them off for fear of lightning or blight. But it made travel aggravating because then you had to remember all the local gods, as not to offend anybody. So one creative genius said, hey how about all these gods are really one God? 'Effing brilliant! But monotheism didn't catch on too well and people were skeptical if God of Israel was fo' shizzel.

The other cultures had their mythology stories and gods, why not Israel too? Hey there was room for the gods of the ancient worlds, but Israel tweaked them a lil bit to appease the culture around them- the gods became giants, mighty men, or the fathers of tribes; they were not to be worshiped, but could still be celebrated in their own mythology stories.

So Cush begat Nimrod, and he was the first mighty man on earth, and the rest goes down in biblical history.

It could make sense, right? If history repeats itself: the Israelites did it first, then the Catholics tried it again with their Saints and the creation of Christian holidays to appease the pagan culture around them.

June 30, 2012

The Christians (some of them) have beaten this to death. http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/nimrod.html

As always, no definitive answers since it's Biblical bullshit.

June 30, 2012

You have done a great deal of research here, wow.

Cities of humans had so many gods for everything and nobody wanted to piss a one of them off for fear of lightning or blight. But it made travel aggravating because then you had to remember all the local gods, as not to offend anybody. So one creative genius said, hey how about all these gods are really one God? 'Effing brilliant! But monotheism didn't catch on too well and people were skeptical if God of Israel was fo' shizzel.

The other cultures had their mythology stories and gods, why not Israel too? Hey there was room for the gods of the ancient worlds, but Israel tweaked them a lil bit to appease the culture around them- the gods became giants, mighty men, or the fathers of tribes; they were not to be worshiped, but could still be celebrated in their own mythology stories.

So Cush begat Nimrod, and he was the first mighty man on earth, and the rest goes down in biblical history.

It could make sense, right? If history repeats itself: the Israelites did it first, then the Catholics tried it again with their Saints and the creation of Christian holidays to appease the pagan culture around them.

IMO, the biblical Cush being mentioned is identical to the Akkadian Kush, a God found in the Theogony of Dunnu. Also spelled Cush, depending on the scholar. Something I didn't put in the above.

Those aren't the only gods found in biblical geneologies. There's also Hadad, Lotan, and others. I guess when listing all those names, they just needed to repeat some, and add foreign nations and deities into the mix.

IMO, the "cities"/"nations" were ancestral gods of those cities.

There was something Philo of Alexandria said, which was reflective of at least one jew's belief of foreign gods. That they were ancestors people falsely believed to be Gods. So perhaps that's what in part what the Table of Nations conveyed? That belief? Not sure. Haven't really put my hypothesis there to the test.

As for the rise of monotheism. There was a suggestion somewhere that monotheism had its origins in the oversyncretizing of different deities, to the point where eventually they were all just part of Marduk. It's an interesting idea. I read it earlier on in my studies, and don't remember the book, and can't know for sure if it was accurate.

The Christians (some of them) have beaten this to death. http://www.christian...ary/nimrod.html

As always, no definitive answers since it's Biblical bullshit.

Yeah, but some did better analysis than others. That site overanalyzes, fabricates, and even says greek myths represent reality. I understand why, they just want to know real bad who this guy was. They don't have a clue. As for the jewish myths, they came later as well. The jewish, greek, and Islamic myths all came later with way too many variants of this oversyncretized character. Though its unclear whether it was supposed to be Nimrod or Asshur (whether Asshur the city or person is being referred to is unclear) that founded Nineveh in the Bible. If it's meaning Asshur as a person though, I'm wrong about it alluding to a mix of Ninurta and Marduk.

Though if I'm right, I'd just be proving another scholars point.

June 30, 2012

To you're point Trailblazer, it runs even deeper than that. The Akkadians borrowed from the Sumerians extensively, and the Canaanites the Egyptians. Though there really aren't any pre-Egyptian and pre-Sumerian records written down, the history shows that its safe to say that they probably borrowed from other cultures around them too. The web of intercultural exchange runs deep. It's like the word for wine, its been spreading since long before IndoEuropean was a language family, let alone writing came about.

July 1, 2012

The Bible is primarily Astro-Theology. Nimrod and Orion represent the same Constellation. Both are great hunters.

From the Jewish encyclopedia

July 1, 2012

The Bible is primarily Astro-Theology. Nimrod and Orion represent the same Constellation. Both are great hunters.

From the Jewish encyclopedia

I didn't know that about Nimrod, but the curious thing is, Marduk's constellation is Orion, and indeed his "bow" he hung in the heavens after he created the world, is "Orion's bow".

July 2, 2012

The Bible is primarily Astro-Theology. Nimrod and Orion represent the same Constellation. Both are great hunters.

From the Jewish encyclopedia

I didn't know that about Nimrod, but the curious thing is, Marduk's constellation is Orion, and indeed his "bow" he hung in the heavens after he created the world, is "Orion's bow".

The Bible story of Esther and Mardecai retell the Babylonian Myth of Ishtar and Marduk. Samson, like Heracles, was a Sun god. David and his sling were probably based on Orion as well. If all the Astro Theological stories were removed from the Bible, not much would be left.

July 3, 2012

Well just imagine this: You're one of the first of the homo sapiens to have complex conscious thoughts about self and how your self relates to your environment. This place you live is familiar, yet alien to you. You wonder why its all here and where it came from. And then your thoughts are interupted- HOLY EFFFFFF was that fire that just came out of the sky? Someone must have done that, someone who is very angry. And YIKES now the sky is throwing this wet stuff at you and blowing everything around WTF??? There must be these things called "gods" doing this and there must be a way to appease them so that this doesn't happen anymore because it's SCARY!

July 3, 2012

The Bible story of Esther and Mardecai retell the Babylonian Myth of Ishtar and Marduk.

Does it? Also, as much as the names Esther and Ishtar/athtar(t) look similar, they're different. Also, Ishtar wasn't the wife of Marduk, Zarpanit was, though Zarpanit was syncretized in with Ishtar, as most goddesses were eventually, in the Neobabylonian era. The names do seem connected though, not sure, Marduk and Mordecai.

Samson, like Heracles, was a Sun god.

The ancient hebrews didn't have a sun god, nor did the canaanites. They had a sun goddess. Samson was a typical hero, but as far as I can tell, Though perhaps they had a sun god due to babylonian influences, which in turn came from sumerian influences. They've actually shown that the original solar deity for the semitic tribes was female, and the lunar deity male.

David and his sling were probably based on Orion as well. If all the Astro Theological stories were removed from the Bible, not much would be left.

Want to know what's also interesting, David is actually modelled after Heracles. Just read the description of Goliath and look at ancient greek armor, you'll see why that story is clearly hellenistic. Also, David's connection to Heracles and Gilgamesh will be apparent if you read both stories. Gilgamesh too was equated with Heracles, though the only similarities I can see is both fighting terrifying monsters.

Well just imagine this: You're one of the first of the homo sapiens to have complex conscious thoughts about self and how your self relates to your environment. This place you live is familiar, yet alien to you. You wonder why its all here and where it came from. And then your thoughts are interupted- HOLY EFFFFFF was that fire that just came out of the sky? Someone must have done that, someone who is very angry. And YIKES now the sky is throwing this wet stuff at you and blowing everything around WTF??? There must be these things called "gods" doing this and there must be a way to appease them so that this doesn't happen anymore because it's SCARY!

Then a sociopath comes along and thinks, "this little belief system is useful..."

Then he says,"The Lord hath spaketh unto me atop the mountain. Bow before him, and I am his prophet. I shall lead you to his will if ye shall follow me, and ye will prosper!"

July 3, 2012

Some Links for Esther and Ishtar.

http://bethsholomjohnstown.org/Rabbi_Brandwein's_Page.html

The solution to this conundrum may be found in the Biblical Book of Esther and its holiday of Purim celebrated by Jewish people this year on Saturday night March 3rd. "Easter" is quite probably derived from Ishtar (or Astarte), the ancient Iranian goddess of fertility, symbolized by eggs and rabbits. Ishtar in turn, is remembered as Esther, the Jewish Queen of Persia. Since Queen Esther is actually named "Hadassah" (according to the Biblical text; Esther 2:7); a typical Hebrew name meaning "myrtle" or "myrrh", and the name of Mordecai (another non- Hebrew designation) her partner, is derived from Marduk (Persian), we must look elsewhere for the meanings of these strange appellations. Ancient Persians deified Marduk and Ishtar as consorts; the chief god and fertility goddess of the pagan, Persian, pantheon.

http://www.shj.org/purim.htm

On one level, the Purim story represents the annual struggle to end the harsh reign of winter. The original characters appear to have been Babylonian gods: Ishtar, the goddess of fertility; Marduk, the chief guardian of the heavens; and Haman, the underworld devil. Ishtar and Haman, life and death, vie with each other for supremacy. Ishtar triumphs; spring returns; and life is renewed.

http://www.vbm-torah.org/purim/pur-es.htm

We are immediately introduced to our two heroes - Mordechai and Esther. It is critical to note that both of these names are not only Persian (and not Hebrew) - they are both pagan names related to various gods of the pantheon! The Esther-Ishtar-Astarte connection is well-documented (besides the fact that the Megillah explicitly gives her "real" name - Hadassah); our heroine is named for the goddess of fertility. The Gemara (BT Menahot 65) gives Mordechai a more "Jewish" name - Petah'ya - and, again, the Mordechai-Marduk (god of creation in many mythologies throughout the Near East) connection has been extensively written up.

Samson and Heracles.

http://encyclobooks.com/Bible-Myths-and-their-Parallels-in-Other-Religions/CHAPTER-VIII-SAMSON-EXPLOITS.htm

That this story is a copy of the legends related of Hercules, or that they have both been copied from similar legends existing among some other nations, is too evident to be disputed. Many churchmen have noticed the similarity between the history of Samson and that of Hercules. In Chambers's Encyclopædia, under "Samson," we read as follows:

"It has been matter of most contradictory speculations, how far his existence is to be taken as a reality, or, in other words, what substratum of historical truth there may be in this supposed circle of popular legends, artistically rounded off, in the four chapters of Judges which treat of him. . . .

"The miraculous deeds he performed have taxed the ingenuity of many commentators, and the text has been twisted and turned in all directions, to explain, rationally, his slaying those prodigious numbers single-handed; his carrying the gates of Gaza, in one night, a distance of about fifty miles, & c., &c."

That this is simply a Solar myth, no one will doubt, we believe, who will take the trouble to investigate it.

Prof. Goldziher, who has made "Comparative Mythology" a special study, says of this story:

"The most complete and rounded-off Solar myth extant in Hebrew, is that of Shimshôn (Samson), a cycle of mythical conceptions fully comparable with the Greek myth of Hercules."

July 3, 2012

This is sumposed to be super serial okayyy?

You can forget trying

to be serious here.

It's far too easy

to quip and then sneer.

We race to the bottom

not climb to the top

It's hard to build up

It's easier to drop.

July 4, 2012

The Bible is primarily Astro-Theology. Nimrod and Orion represent the same Constellation. Both are great hunters.

From the Jewish encyclopedia

I didn't know that about Nimrod, but the curious thing is, Marduk's constellation is Orion, and indeed his "bow" he hung in the heavens after he created the world, is "Orion's bow".

The Bible story of Esther and Mardecai retell the Babylonian Myth of Ishtar and Marduk. Samson, like Heracles, was a Sun god. David and his sling were probably based on Orion as well. If all the Astro Theological stories were removed from the Bible, not much would be left.

Hmmmm similar to abraham and sarah vs the hindu brahmin and saraswati

July 4, 2012

The Bible is primarily Astro-Theology. Nimrod and Orion represent the same Constellation. Both are great hunters.

From the Jewish encyclopedia

I didn't know that about Nimrod, but the curious thing is, Marduk's constellation is Orion, and indeed his "bow" he hung in the heavens after he created the world, is "Orion's bow".

The Bible story of Esther and Mardecai retell the Babylonian Myth of Ishtar and Marduk. Samson, like Heracles, was a Sun god. David and his sling were probably based on Orion as well. If all the Astro Theological stories were removed from the Bible, not much would be left.

Hmmmm similar to abraham and sarah vs the hindu brahmin and saraswati

http://www.hermetics.org/Abraham2.html

How much can I trust this?

July 4, 2012

The Bible is primarily Astro-Theology. Nimrod and Orion represent the same Constellation. Both are great hunters.

From the Jewish encyclopedia

I didn't know that about Nimrod, but the curious thing is, Marduk's constellation is Orion, and indeed his "bow" he hung in the heavens after he created the world, is "Orion's bow".

The Bible story of Esther and Mardecai retell the Babylonian Myth of Ishtar and Marduk. Samson, like Heracles, was a Sun god. David and his sling were probably based on Orion as well. If all the Astro Theological stories were removed from the Bible, not much would be left.

Hmmmm similar to abraham and sarah vs the hindu brahmin and saraswati

http://www.hermetics.org/Abraham2.html

How much can I trust this?

It is certainly possible, and even probable, that there is a connection between Brahma and Abraham. The OT writers borrowed from just about everyone. Doing a quick Google, there are many books and websites that make the same comparison.

July 5, 2012

Some Links for Esther and Ishtar.

http://bethsholomjoh...#39;s_Page.html

The solution to this conundrum may be found in the Biblical Book of Esther and its holiday of Purim celebrated by Jewish people this year on Saturday night March 3rd. "Easter" is quite probably derived from Ishtar (or Astarte), the ancient Iranian goddess of fertility, symbolized by eggs and rabbits. Ishtar in turn, is remembered as Esther, the Jewish Queen of Persia. Since Queen Esther is actually named "Hadassah" (according to the Biblical text; Esther 2:7); a typical Hebrew name meaning "myrtle" or "myrrh", and the name of Mordecai (another non- Hebrew designation) her partner, is derived from Marduk (Persian), we must look elsewhere for the meanings of these strange appellations. Ancient Persians deified Marduk and Ishtar as consorts; the chief god and fertility goddess of the pagan, Persian, pantheon.

http://www.shj.org/purim.htm

Since the article presents these claims without evidence, I'm inclined to reject such claims at face value. I love how the one says we don't have a clue where the term easter came from. Well, I'll take a stab at this:

Origin:

before 900; Middle English ester, Old English ēastre; cognate with German Ostern; orig. name of a goddess and her festival; akin to east

See, the problem is, the origin of the english term hasn't been a mystery at all. The similarity to "esther" is a chance coincidence well known.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/easter?jss=0

I have a feeling that that humanist rabbi got his source from Zeitgeist, which is more often than not wrong. Because from the Old English word, you get the Anglosaxon word, which is even less like Esther:

An Anglo-Saxon goddess named Eostre may have had hares as attendants. If so, the hares may have held her lights, since Eostre was the goddess of Dawn, like Eos (Greek) and Aurora (Latin). The month of April was, among the Anglo-Saxons, called Eostur-monath, and during Eostur-monath, a festival was held to Eostre. This festival has, at least in name, been taken over by the Christian spring festival Easter. If Eostre did indeed have hares as companions, the association of Easter and Easter bunnies is an ancient one.

http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/easter/qt/EostreHare.htm

Not only that, but Eostre has been shown to be etymologically related to the word "east" (hence, easter", and was the goddess of dawn/the east). Why couldn't it still have come from Ishtar? Because Ishtar's name was originally athtar, the "th" being a velar alveolar plosive. Also, the Anglosaxon term has been shown to have evolved from the protoindoeuropean term heusos (yeah, not spelling it in all those special symbols).

The Oxford Introduction to ProtoIndoEuropean and the IndoEuropean World is my source on that. Unfortunately, I don't have anything online for you at this time.

The reason that Easter became the name of Jesus' deathday was the same reason Yule became the name of the day he was born, the christianization of northern europe. It was actually called Yule before it became christmas in England I do believe.

As for Esther being sourced from Ishtar, why should a shin become a samech and not another shin? Hebrew has the same sound, and so there really isn't a reason it should've been spelled the way it is if its source was Ishtar. Especially since the bible already has a form of Ishtar in it, ashtart (ashtoreth), spelled with a shin. It's a rule in linguistics that phonetic change isn't random, if one "s" becomes a "sh", they all will, with few exceptions (like with consonant clusters, but both Esther and Ishtar have "s/sh" preceding a consonant, and a very similar one at that).

On one level, the Purim story represents the annual struggle to end the harsh reign of winter. The original characters appear to have been Babylonian gods: Ishtar, the goddess of fertility; Marduk, the chief guardian of the heavens; and Haman, the underworld devil. Ishtar and Haman, life and death, vie with each other for supremacy. Ishtar triumphs; spring returns; and life is renewed.
http://www.vbm-torah...urim/pur-es.htm

Haman isn't babylonian. They didn't have a devil. Their underworld deities were Nergal and Ereshkigal/Allatu. The Bible sure mentions a Haman though. The Bible isn't evidence.

Also, Ishtar wasn't really a fertility goddess. She was the goddess of love and war. As for Marduk, her being his wife was only when Zarpanit was equated with her.

I'd love to know what myth they're referring to though with the cycle of the fertility of crops, because no such myth exists with Marduk being involved. Actually, the deities associated with the changing of seasons are Tammuz/Damuzid and Ningishzida, which can be found here:

http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=t.1.4.1.1&charenc=j#

Though Marduk is a god of farming, he is so in the same way that Ares was, and was like Ninurta and Ares in that he was also a god of war. Different altogether from Tammuz.

The problem is that these religious sources (be they humanist or whatever) don't source any scholarly material. They don't source anything at all! I've given you scholarly material. I do have more.

We are immediately introduced to our two heroes - Mordechai and Esther. It is critical to note that both of these names are not only Persian (and not Hebrew) - they are both pagan names related to various gods of the pantheon! The Esther-Ishtar-Astarte connection is well-documented (besides the fact that the Megillah explicitly gives her "real" name - Hadassah); our heroine is named for the goddess of fertility. The Gemara (BT Menahot 65) gives Mordechai a more "Jewish" name - Petah'ya - and, again, the Mordechai-Marduk (god of creation in many mythologies throughout the Near East) connection has been extensively written up.

Except Marduk wasn't really a god of creation in many mythologies of the Near East. He barely was in Babylon, and that was only because he became the head of the pantheon. But outside of Babylon, it was still Enki and Ninhursag, Asshur, etc... In fact, outside the Amorites, Babylonians and Assyrians, Marduk really didn't feature all that prominently.

There was actually a study though I read somewhere. I've got to fish it up, that debunks this theory. I'll try to find it for you.

Samson and Heracles.

http://encyclobooks....ON-EXPLOITS.htm

That this story is a copy of the legends related of Hercules, or that they have both been copied from similar legends existing among some other nations, is too evident to be disputed. Many churchmen have noticed the similarity between the history of Samson and that of Hercules. In Chambers's Encyclopædia, under "Samson," we read as follows:

"It has been matter of most contradictory speculations, how far his existence is to be taken as a reality, or, in other words, what substratum of historical truth there may be in this supposed circle of popular legends, artistically rounded off, in the four chapters of Judges which treat of him. . . .

"The miraculous deeds he performed have taxed the ingenuity of many commentators, and the text has been twisted and turned in all directions, to explain, rationally, his slaying those prodigious numbers single-handed; his carrying the gates of Gaza, in one night, a distance of about fifty miles, & c., &c."

That this is simply a Solar myth, no one will doubt, we believe, who will take the trouble to investigate it.

Prof. Goldziher, who has made "Comparative Mythology" a special study, says of this story:

"The most complete and rounded-off Solar myth extant in Hebrew, is that of Shimshôn (Samson), a cycle of mythical conceptions fully comparable with the Greek myth of Hercules."

Why not a Shapshu or a Shamshu? Still not sold that the character represents a solar deity.

July 5, 2012

Hmmmm similar to abraham and sarah vs the hindu brahmin and saraswati

Yes, don't you love how similar unrelated words can sound?

July 5, 2012

Hmmmm similar to abraham and sarah vs the hindu brahmin and saraswati

Yes, don't you love how similar unrelated words can sound?

but abrahambrahmin and their partners sarah/saraswati is a little more than a coincidence

July 5, 2012

Hmmmm similar to abraham and sarah vs the hindu brahmin and saraswati

Yes, don't you love how similar unrelated words can sound?

but abrahambrahmin and their partners sarah/saraswati is a little more than a coincidence

Really? Do you have evidence?

As far as I know, Abraham and Sarah have hebrew names and Brahma (brahmin is a priest not a god btw) and Saraswati are of hindi origin. Also, I fail to see any real connections between them in the mythos, maybe I've missed something?

Dingir and Tengri are very similar, did the turks borrow their word for god from the sumerians? Same thing is at work, but we know that Tengri came from tag- which is a different word and route, which went back to a time when the turks weren't present in western Asia, so no. Just an intriguing councidence.

July 5, 2012

The Jews, being held in captivity in Babylon for many years, adapted many of the Babylonian Myths to create their own history. We all know that the story of Noah comes from the Epic of Gilgamesh. Religious syncretism combines different Mythical elements to create something new. Just because the Gospels didn't copy every detail from earlier dying and resurrecting gods, doesn't mean that Jesus doesn't follow the same Mythic pattern. Since Samson never existed, he is a myth. Is there any other Mythic pattern that would better explain the exploits of Samson than a Solar Myth?

July 6, 2012

The Jews, being held in captivity in Babylon for many years, adapted many of the Babylonian Myths to create their own history. We all know that the story of Noah comes from the Epic of Gilgamesh. Religious syncretism combines different Mythical elements to create something new. Just because the Gospels didn't copy every detail from earlier dying and resurrecting gods, doesn't mean that Jesus doesn't follow the same Mythic pattern. Since Samson never existed, he is a myth. Is there any other Mythic pattern that would better explain the exploits of Samson than a Solar Myth?

Yes, a hero myth. I don't get what myths attributed to him are so "solar myth"specific that that's all you think it can possibly be.

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