Calvinism And Predestination

[Mike D]

For those current (or former) Calvinists and Predeterminists among us:

 

If you believed that the fate of all humans is predetermined by god, and there's nothing any of us could do to change it, what would be the purpose of any of us knowing this?

 

It seems to me that the only thing more cruel than creating a human for the sole purpose of torturing it forever, is for the creator to reveal this to that human beforehand. It's the most disgusting, twisted and despicable thing I can ever imagine.

 

Oh I guess i can think of one thing slightly more repugnant - that the creator is also lying to the "elect", just for the thrill of seeing their shocked faces when he tosses them into the eternal fire with everyone else.

 

How could you ever trust a being with such a cruel mind?

[Kaiser01]

The core of calvanist philosophy is original sin. Without original sin the entire thing shatters, which is why if you can disprove genesis and a literal garden of Eden then you have disproved calvanism.

 

The interesting thing about the calvanist doctrine is that it is the traditional church holding, it wasnt until dispensationalism arose in the 1830's that the calvanist system was actually over turned.

[Guest wester]

Calvinism = Nihilism

[Guest Valk0010]

Calvinism makes this word, become a place of where we are puppets and god is the puppet master, it also makes him into stalin.

[NeverAgainV]

The cult I was in for almost 2 decades was calvinist. At the time it made more sense because I couldn't believe in the arminian god who tells humans as he tosses them into hell "I loved you but you chose another way...so into hell you go!"

I couldn't accept the arminian god who would tell a human he LOVED that human, but toss 'em into hell. I thought if god loves me, & god is all powerful then god will save me. so...off to the calvinist god I went. *sigh*

Guess I had to live & learn because that abusive system just about sucked the life out of me. At the time what made sense to me ( & obviously I've changed) but the calvinist god "saves whom HE will..." so that seemed better than a god who didn't even have the power to "save" someone.

 

One thing I did notice is that the calvinist true believer^tm types are well.....how can I say.....just self righteous & not caring much about others because they are "elect" & "god did it all!"

so the main focus was on the pastor, his family & HIS ministry. charity was only mostly shown towards people IN the church. not much charity shown to people on the outside of the church. If there was charity used by the pastor

from the way I saw it, it was always for manipulation & ulterior motives...to get people to join the true church^tm, or to make a show of charity to "be seen of men". It was all so fucking phony looking back!

 

oh shit...it's all a bunch of nonsense if you ask me. When I was in the cult, I never allowed myself to think outside of that box of dogma. When I questioned, the answer was always "who art thou that repliest against god???" in other words, who did I think I was to question or hold god accountable? It was the "might makes right" defense....so I stopped questioning. for a while anyhow.

 

I have no doubt that those in my ex-church say that I never was one of god's children, that I never was an "elect", but a reprobate who showed my true colors over time. I was told that "they who have left are not of us, or they would not have left...". The buybull is just bullshit & the craziness that is promoted as buybull religion is whacko! Calvinists are the worst too because they are happy & content to sit & sit & listen to sermon after sermon, while other xians at least

are trying to LIVE the teachings of jeezus. Oh & the calvinists I knew were pretty well off...they lived high on the hog, materialist as anything...but they didn't think there was anything wrong with that because the pastor quoted

the verse that jeezus said, "the poor ye shall have with you always..". If you ask me plenty of them have turned a blind eye to suffering people, believing that "poor" people deserve to be "poor"...blah blah.

I just HATE it!

[Mudhoney]

As a former Calvinist, I can tell you what I thought about these things at the time but I'm not sure whether all Calvinists believe(d) this way. Others might have a different perspective. What I believed (and what was taught during sermons) was that every human being deserves hell but god was so incredibly generous as to just save a few. I was taught that the Jewish people (in the old testament) were a symbol of the elect who were to come; that god can choose whoever he wants to save and it's not for us to question because he's, well, you know, god. He could have picked any nation to make a people for himself but he chose Israel because he wanted to. To answer your question, only the "real" elect will actually believe Calvinist doctrine. Those who aren't elect will believe something else and won't think they're going to hell. My church taught that every other denomination and religion were going to hell. I want to stress that the Calvinists in my church felt like complete shit because this particular denomination teaches that there isn't one good thing human beings can do, that it's straight evil all the time.They treat their children harshly as well, as they believe that they're evil and that god commands harsh punishment. Looking back, I have a feeling that the preacher was completely full of himself and didn't think he was complete shit at all. Others in the congregation were completely brainwashed, the same as me. The Calvinists who might respond to this thread will most likely be completely brainwashed as well and believe their god is utterly holy and beyond reproach. They most likely believe that anything good they accomplish, no matter how small, is the work of the holy spirit. The denomination is one of the worst, imo. Their minds are enslaved. This in itself wouldn't bother me so much but it's the fact that their doctrines are so hard on children that upsets me. Xtianity is not a harmless religion.

[NeverAgainV]

As a former Calvinist, I can tell you what I thought about these things at the time but I'm not sure whether all Calvinists believe(d) this way. Others might have a different perspective. What I believed (and what was taught during sermons) was that every human being deserves hell but god was so incredibly generous as to just save a few. I was taught that the Jewish people (in the old testament) were a symbol of the elect who were to come; that god can choose whoever he wants to save and it's not for us to question because he's, well, you know, god. He could have picked any nation to make a people for himself but he chose Israel because he wanted to. To answer your question, only the "real" elect will actually believe Calvinist doctrine. Those who aren't elect will believe something else and won't think they're going to hell. My church taught that every other denomination and religion were going to hell. I want to stress that the Calvinists in my church felt like complete shit because this particular denomination teaches that there isn't one good thing human beings can do, that it's straight evil all the time.They treat their children harshly as well, as they believe that they're evil and that god commands harsh punishment. Looking back, I have a feeling that the preacher was completely full of himself and didn't think he was complete shit at all. Others in the congregation were completely brainwashed, the same as me. The Calvinists who might respond to this thread will most likely be completely brainwashed as well and believe their god is utterly holy and beyond reproach. They most likely believe that anything good they accomplish, no matter how small, is the work of the holy spirit. The denomination is one of the worst, imo. Their minds are enslaved. This in itself wouldn't bother me so much but it's the fact that their doctrines are so hard on children that upsets me. Xtianity is not a harmless religion.

Total Depravity is the worst doctrine. I left just about every sermon feeling beaten up & like shit....after all, I was inherently evil, sinful & incapable of being "good".

When I really did & was good, gawd got the credit, but of course all of my sins & downfalls were MY fault. Yes, it is a religion that really beats people up.

and my experience was like yours in that the same thing was taught...if a person believes calvinism, that is how it proves they are saved=elect. If they were those -other- brands of xianity...well, god's folks might be out there

amongst them, but they are certainly deceived & no evidence of being "elect".

 

I also hated how, at least in the calvinist cult I left, that doctrine was stressed more than anything. It wasn't even about good works, as "believing" was taught to be a "good work"...so the whole system was predicated on believing the truth^tm .

and of course only pastard's brand of xiantiy was really preaching the truth^tm. The doctrine & teachings were way more about the religious peculiarities of Paul....NOT about the good social teachings of jesus.

It became too exhausting & oppressive over time. You could see it on the faces of the people in the cult church...they were sour, dour, looking down their noses at others...after all, when you feel like a "worm"

it might make you feel better by putting others down, which is the example the pastard used very often. Naturally it was emulated by the flock to behave in the ways the pastard did. UGH

so glad to out of there......

 

You are right, that religion is NOT harmless...I feel bad for the kids still in it. Many have no personality, they are timid, scared...or angry. My kids were crucial in my escaping. I started freaking out when my daughter began asking about being "baptised"

& I thought....oh NO! not that! I did NOT want her to be in the prison of a religion that we had been sucked into...then I had to ask myself if I didn't want my kids in it...why was I still in it?? Integrity can be a rough road...

That was the slippery slope...the hard questions. Bottom line, I could not see my kids enduring the abuse that we did, no way!! and I don't understand how I allowed myself to get abused...but I drew the line when it came

to my kids.

[Mudhoney]

NeverAgainV, my daughter was the main reason I left xtianity. I started shaking the cobwebs out of my brain when I thought about raising her in that environment. The men in charge were pretty controlling and I starting wondering if I should run like hell. For example, there was always a man volunteering in the nursery (or choir, or band) so that women would not be solely in charge. And talk about total depravity, the "T" in the TULIP! My old pastor worked that one into the sermon almost every week. Also, I can relate when you said that the doctrine was stressed more than anything else. This was true in my church, too. If they were preaching about missionaries, they would say things like "they're going overseas to preach the gospel to the elect." To them, the purpose of vacation bile school was to target any elect children who might be there. The church looked at people as either elect and saved, elect and not yet converted, or destined for the pit. The elders encouraged witnessing but said that it wasn't necessary to keep pursuing people because the elect would "get" it. This was a not a backwoods church, either, with eccentric ideas. You probably wouldn't recognize the pastor's name but he's a big shot in the SBC and writes a ton of garbage/propaganda for them. I used to believe that mine was the true faith, and it just knocks me out when the xtians come here and tell us that they have the correct denomination. They ALL think that they're right! Every single one of them thinks the other one is shit.

[Leith]

This is how I used to explain it to myself:

 

God created time. So God is not bound by time, he is above it. So words like "predestination" make no sense anymore.

God already knows who goes to hell, but even they still have a chance to repent.

And of course: we are mere humans, we cannot understand it. But that is no reason to doubt the infinite wisdom of God!

 

Twisted logic, I know. But it worked for me at the time.

[NeverAgainV]

NeverAgainV, my daughter was the main reason I left xtianity. I started shaking the cobwebs out of my brain when I thought about raising her in that environment. The men in charge were pretty controlling and I starting wondering if I should run like hell. For example, there was always a man volunteering in the nursery (or choir, or band) so that women would not be solely in charge. And talk about total depravity, the "T" in the TULIP! My old pastor worked that one into the sermon almost every week. Also, I can relate when you said that the doctrine was stressed more than anything else. This was true in my church, too. If they were preaching about missionaries, they would say things like "they're going overseas to preach the gospel to the elect." To them, the purpose of vacation bile school was to target any elect children who might be there. The church looked at people as either elect and saved, elect and not yet converted, or destined for the pit. The elders encouraged witnessing but said that it wasn't necessary to keep pursuing people because the elect would "get" it. This was a not a backwoods church, either, with eccentric ideas. You probably wouldn't recognize the pastor's name but he's a big shot in the SBC and writes a ton of garbage/propaganda for them. I used to believe that mine was the true faith, and it just knocks me out when the xtians come here and tell us that they have the correct denomination. They ALL think that they're right! Every single one of them thinks the other one is shit.

oh yes TULIP....the bad memories!! my xpastard is a snake in that he tries to separate himself & his ministry from calvinism, but he tries to sugar coat it with, "I don't preach calvinism, but I preach the TRUTH^tm!!"

 

I can say in all fairness that I think calvinism is probably the closest to true^tm bible religion....which is just one reason why I reject the bible.

Ultimately true believers^tm end up roasting others in a human BBQ ala Jehan/John Calvin because they will not tolerate anyone who believes differently than they do.

The crazies of the Westboro Baptist church are what true believers^tm would look like....they are just trying to live out the "good book".

[LivingLife]

I agree that predestination is probably the most accurate. The reason I say this that in RL, the idea of free will is a myth. Our existence is pretty deterministic in retrospection, seeing what events led to any milestone decision in your life. Our choices in RL are pretty limited by circumstances outside of our control.

 

I am sure, we are not the first to see this. The concept of Calvinism and the absolute depravity is of course a step too far in the wrong direction. Humans are generally not that bad..

[Deva]

If you think you are completely evil and cannot do anything to change that fact, then why not act the part? This is a perverted doctrine. Even as a Christian, I was appalled and at the same time fascinated. I was fascinated that people could actually teach and believe such a perverted doctrine.

 

Of course it originates with the idea of original sin - in itself a lie.

[NeverAgainV]

I agree that predestination is probably the most accurate. The reason I say this that in RL, the idea of free will is a myth. Our existence is pretty deterministic in retrospection, seeing what events led to any milestone decision in your life. Our choices in RL are pretty limited by circumstances outside of our control.

 

I am sure, we are not the first to see this. The concept of Calvinism and the absolute depravity is of course a step too far in the wrong direction. Humans are generally not that bad..

I'll probably make myself look like a fool for asking this, but what is RL? Real life? just guessing??

[Mudhoney]

If you think you are completely evil and cannot do anything to change that fact, then why not act the part? This is a perverted doctrine. Even as a Christian, I was appalled and at the same time fascinated. I was fascinated that people could actually teach and believe such a perverted doctrine.

 

Of course it originates with the idea of original sin - in itself a lie.

 

For me, believing this mess was a consequence of being indoctrinated since birth. For older converts, I think it has to do with the issue of eternal security to some extent. If you are one of the "elect", then you no longer have to worry about losing your salvation. Calvinists cherry-pick from whatever part of the doctrine that makes them feel better; if they don't want to dwell on total depravity, they can numb themselves with eternal security. On a personal note, before deconversion I attended several different denominations trying to hold onto my xtianity. The charismatic churches seemed silly to me when people started speaking in tongues. I just wasn't used to it. I'm a reserved person in general and the loudness and strangeness was off-putting. I think people will gravitate toward whatever denomination they're most comfortable with or where their friends and family go. On another note, the pompous Calvinist writers and preachers try to sound "smart" and appeal to logic and reason when they really don't have a leg to stand on.

[LivingLife]

I'll probably make myself look like a fool for asking this, but what is RL? Real life? just guessing??

Correct

[Deva]

On another note, the pompous Calvinist writers and preachers try to sound "smart" and appeal to logic and reason when they really don't have a leg to stand on.

 

With what little experience I had with Calvinism I found this to be true. I went to some lectures given by RC Sproul in the 90s. He made it sound like the only reasonable Biblical interpretation. It seemed like it must be true, no matter how horrible it was. I am sure many people are trapped this way into thinking they have no other options but to believe this garbage.

 

I remember one questioner asked "why should we witness if everyone's eternal state is already set?"

Answer -"Because Jesus said so".

[NeverAgainV]

If you think you are completely evil and cannot do anything to change that fact, then why not act the part? This is a perverted doctrine. Even as a Christian, I was appalled and at the same time fascinated. I was fascinated that people could actually teach and believe such a perverted doctrine.

 

Of course it originates with the idea of original sin - in itself a lie.

 

For me, believing this mess was a consequence of being indoctrinated since birth. For older converts, I think it has to do with the issue of eternal security to some extent. If you are one of the "elect", then you no longer have to worry about losing your salvation. Calvinists cherry-pick from whatever part of the doctrine that makes them feel better; if they don't want to dwell on total depravity, they can numb themselves with eternal security. On a personal note, before deconversion I attended several different denominations trying to hold onto my xtianity. The charismatic churches seemed silly to me when people started speaking in tongues. I just wasn't used to it. I'm a reserved person in general and the loudness and strangeness was off-putting. I think people will gravitate toward whatever denomination they're most comfortable with or where their friends and family go. On another note, the pompous Calvinist writers and preachers try to sound "smart" and appeal to logic and reason when they really don't have a leg to stand on.

hey...did you go to the same church as i did?! You are right about the "eternal security" that is what it is about. Calvinists make themselves feel they have the "truth" & therefore can "know" that they have "eternal life". From my experience anyhow, I saw there was very little interest in the happenings of the Real World...not much charity was extended, especially to outside of the elect=church people. I never liked charismatic or penecostal...being raised a Catholic, that was just too over the top for me. the calvinist group I left taught that speaking in tounges & the gifts were now being used by the devil, so those types of churches were looked down on as being "deceived". The whole world was "deceived"....except "pasturd" and his brand of true churches^tm. It got soooo old.

 

And you are right, they do try to make it like those other brand of christians are emotion based...but they, the true church^tm calvinists are LOGIC based...but it's not. I finally realized over time that they do EXACTLY what they claim all of the rest of luke warm christendom does...they cherry pick their bible verses.

Xpasturd was always cutting other churches down, bitching how they don't preach the whole of "god's holy wurd"..yet when I read the bible myself I read thousands

of verses & chapters that pasturd NEVER mentioned on the 20 years I listened to his sermons!! what a fucking hypocrite!

 

Over time I realized these calvinist preachers are just guys who love to hear themselves preach...love the hear themselves talk & be the center of attention.

OK...that's a big generalization I know...but that was my experience anyhow.

[NeverAgainV]

On another note, the pompous Calvinist writers and preachers try to sound "smart" and appeal to logic and reason when they really don't have a leg to stand on.

 

With what little experience I had with Calvinism I found this to be true. I went to some lectures given by RC Sproul in the 90s. He made it sound like the only reasonable Biblical interpretation. It seemed like it must be true, no matter how horrible it was. I am sure many people are trapped this way into thinking they have no other options but to believe this garbage.

 

I remember one questioner asked "why should we witness if everyone's eternal state is already set?"

Answer -"Because Jesus said so".

That was to me another area of showing laziness & not caring for others was they often cut down the missionary type of xians. Xpasturd was very ANTI-evangelising for years...teaching that "why go over to china to convert the heathen, when the heathen are in our own backyards!!" he said that in a sermon about americans. Of course he's changed his position now & is doing "evangelizing" in china! what a jerk! Of course I'm sure he's forgotten all of the the harsh words towards xians who had missionaries. I never liked witnessing & I guess that is why I liked calvinism, we never had guilt put on us about that because it was taugth that gawd will "save whom he will"...so I appreciated that. I never witnessed when I was a Catholic either, it wasn't taught to go out door knocking or leaving tracts. But as much as I loathed witnessing I felt we did very little if what we had was so damned important...& if it was that important then we should have been trying to convert "souls".

 

anyhow it's all a bunch of controlling guilting bullshit. but it is interesting to see the dynamics. I still hope expasturd falls hard....he's such a self righteous jerk!

oh his latest sermon is "OBEYING the gospel"...."obey" is in sooooooo many of his sermons. I fucking HATE it!!!!! "obey god" is synonymous with obeying the "man a gawd" obeying the pasturd. UGH

[FeelHappy]

I used to listen to a bunch of RC Sproul and it made so much sense. Then the reality of it hit me one day, god can easily save mankind but instead sends the vast majority of them to hell. I'd imagine that say I'm god and I have 5 children, all of them are rebellious and I see all 5 drowning, now I can save all 5 and then all 5 will turn from their wicked ways and follow me, but instead I say to the first 4, sorry you were too bad and let them drown, but then I feel generous and save the 5th one......how the hell is this a loving god?

 

The arminianism way seemed much more tolerable, here god loves everyone but they reject him and choose to deny him so therefore he sends them to hell. My problem with arminianism is that the bible is clearly Calvinist (in my opinion), so while it sounds better its just not in line with scripture.

[Kaiser01]

I used to listen to a bunch of RC Sproul and it made so much sense. Then the reality of it hit me one day, god can easily save mankind but instead sends the vast majority of them to hell. I'd imagine that say I'm god and I have 5 children, all of them are rebellious and I see all 5 drowning, now I can save all 5 and then all 5 will turn from their wicked ways and follow me, but instead I say to the first 4, sorry you were too bad and let them drown, but then I feel generous and save the 5th one......how the hell is this a loving god?

 

The arminianism way seemed much more tolerable, here god loves everyone but they reject him and choose to deny him so therefore he sends them to hell. My problem with arminianism is that the bible is clearly Calvinist (in my opinion), so while it sounds better its just not in line with scripture.

 

I like RC Sproul, he is by far one of the better theologians there is, he builds massive and eloquent philosophy on false premises though, he is a scientific illiterate. He taught me alot about logic though ironically.

[Endemoniada]

This is a perverted doctrine. Even as a Christian, I was appalled and at the same time fascinated. I was fascinated that people could actually teach and believe such a perverted doctrine.

 

I too cannot wrap my mind around how someone could believe such a thing, and teach it to children as the truth. I was actually shocked when one of the leaders for the Campus life group at my school taught Calvinism in one of his 'lessons'. And I am equally shocked at how proud some of these people can be of their odious theology, from the few I have known from a Christian forum I used to be on.

 

Anyway, here's what I have to say:

Though I have never been a Calvinist, I have always hated the doctrine ever since I knew about it, as I was raised in an evangelical church that was always encouraging us to "share Christ" with someone, whatever the hell that means. Or to invite our friends to church ie. embarrass ourselves by letting people know that we go to one of those crazy Pentacostal churches, though mine is rather moderate compared some of the more 'charismatic' ones. The sheeple at the one I go to aren't the holy rolling type, and I've never seen 'tongues' done in the middle of a service, but I still wouldn't want my friends to know I went there twice a week. Anyway, I actually told myself that if I studied the Bible and learned that salvation is pre-determined, that I would stop believing, as the doctrine was too morally reprehensible for me to even contemplate being true. Of course, I never did get around to that Bible study. I was afraid I would be proven right.

[Deva]

The whole idea that belief in something that you can't see is THE necessary condition for salvation seems just bizarre to me now. If Jesus' death was a sacrifice for sin and the payment for salvation, then everyone is saved.

 

Of course think all of that is silly now.

 

I read Calvin, too - I have a very thick book he wrote and I read the whole thing. He was quite the intellectual. It seemed like the man had no love or compassion in him. Actually, if I remember correctly, he had someone burned at the stake for heresy. I think this is the logical outcome of a perverted doctrine such as what we have here.

[♦ ficino ♦]

When I was a Calvinist I brought up the case of Servetus' being burned at the stake in Geneva, and my pastor said, it wasn't Calvin, it was the secular authorities who did it. As though the secular authorities in Calvin's Geneva were not themselves Calvinists! Calvin himself was a big cheese in Servetus' condemnation.

 

Eventually I became Catholic because I realized that "by scripture alone" is not a doctrine stated in the NT, so it doesn't meet its own requirements, thereby showing the error at the basis of the Reformation. In fact the NT talks about traditions that transmit truth. My pastor and other Reformed types never could refute the Catholic claims about how the faith is carried down by tradition, scripture and the church. They could only attack details or make assertions or attack people's character. My pastor at the end told me that I was commiting the sin of pride in relying on my private judgment to reject the Reformation and go over to Rome. That was by letter, and at that point, I didn't bother pointing out the obvious fact that by this logic, the Reformers themselves were just as prideful in relying on their private judgment to reject their own church's authority.

 

I do agree with others on here that the Calvinist take on predestination is more biblical than the Arminian. When I became Catholic I carried that over because Aquinas says some similar things (though he doesn't state that God outright predestines people to hell, it follows from what he does say).

 

I also notice that the christians who make the most claims to argue logically, and who accuse non-believers of errors in logic, most often turn out to be Calvinists.

 

I'm surprised that Ordinary Clay tries to defend a position similar to Arminianism, though I think I understand why he does it: he wants to preserve "free will" in an attempt to resolve the Problem of Evil. I think as philosophy, his attempt fails, and as theology it's unbiblical. But that's another thread.

[Legion]

Predestiny! Oh predestiny!

What will be, will be.

What do you have for me?

Can you account for novelty?

Do you believe in emerging?

Reflex and imagining

overconstrained causality

never the possibility

of our asking...

 

what if?

[Mudhoney]

If you could believe in a god who created a place like hell, and who also knew that people would end up there before he created it, is it such a stretch to believe he could pick and choose who ended up there? According to the bile, god himself purposely hardened Pharaoh's heart on several occasions. He also didn't mind killing whole people-groups, children and all. Biblegod fits the Calvinist perspective quite nicely, especially as he's portrayed in the Old Testament.