starlyte777 Posted August 27, 2012 Author Share Posted August 27, 2012 Wanting answers comes from within. He doesnt want to know. He wants to hold on to his warm fuzzy fairy tale. Just the way it 'tis. Thanks mcdaddy............thbbbbbbbb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackpudd1n Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 Hey Patty, I just wanted to encourage you, you're doing really, really well I know I haven't participated in this thread much, but I've been watching from the sidelines. I admire you greatly for the effort you are putting in to finding the truth. You are asking good questions I keep tabs on this thread because I wait with baited breath to see that moment when everything just suddenly "clicks" into place in your mind, the same way everything clicked in my mind the weekend of October 30-31 last year. I spent so long being frustrated, trying to understand, trying to make sense of everything. Then suddenly, it all just seemed to come together, and I got it! It made sense! I went through that process all over again when I joined this forum, and I tried to learn about evolution. I had always been a literalist. I took Genesis literally. It had never occured to me that the flood could not have happened. Where did all that water come from? And where did it go? And what did people mean, when they said chickens descended from T-Rexes? Oh, how my head would hurt, as I strained to understand. I felt so stupid. So dumb. I couldn't work it out. And then, one night, I clicked on a documentary to watch. I was feeling pretty discouraged. I put it on to go to sleep to, but I ended up enthralled by it. Suddenly, it happened again. I got it! I got it! Suddenly, I understood the concept of evolution! So here I am going to put the documentary that I watched that night, that helped me to understand what evolution was. The documentary centered on the Dover trial about whether intelligent design should be taught in public science classrooms alongside evolution. They went into detail about the difference between evolution and intelligent design that helped me to see and understand that evolution was really how it all happened. I found this documentary easy to understand, and I hope you enjoy it and get the benefit from it that I did. Love, Pudd 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblueep Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 Here's one video There are innumerable videos and websites out there that lay out why the flood is impossible. Of course, you will find videos and websites that support the flood myth. The creationists had to invent non biblical "facts" to make it work, like baby animals, changing the definition of incest, etc. The bottom line is that if someone wants to hold onto an irrational belief, they can find a way to do so. If they just take one step back and look rationally, they won't be able to hold on to the ridiculous. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblueep Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 Here's a pretty decent article about the Noah flood myth: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html Here's one excerpt about the maturity of the animals Were the animals aboard the ark mature? Woodmorappe gets his animals to fit only by taking juvenile pairs of everything weighing more than 22 lbs. as an adult. However, it is more likely that Noah would have brought adults aboard: The Bible (Gen. 7:2) speaks of "the male and his mate," indicating that the animals were at sexual maturity. Many animals require the care of adults to teach them behaviors they need for survival. If brought aboard as juveniles, these animals wouldn't have survived. The last point does not apply to all animals. However, the animals don't need parental care tend to be animals that mature quickly, and thus would be close to adult size after a year of growth anyway. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted August 27, 2012 Moderator Share Posted August 27, 2012 Patty, I'm afraid that deconverting hubby is highly improbable. Can you be happy in merely convincing yourself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 thank you all for your responses,...........I read them to my H.......we wasn;t impressed........ Did you show him the contradictions in the flood story? .....he says there is no evidence that God exists.........BUT there is NO evidence that He doesn't........ So, he's basically an agnostic. (For clarification, that doesn't mean he's not a theist, because you can be an agnostic theist just like you can be an agnostic atheist.) ......what he really wants to know is about Noah's Ark..... Again, did you show him that the story of Noah's Ark in the Bible isn't even consistent? ....he believies the animals were babies..... The Bible doesn't say that. That's just Christians' attempt to try to lessen the problem of inadequate space on the ark. OvercameFaith already thoroughly refuted that claim by showing that there still wouldn't have been enough space. ...NOT carniverous until after the flood..... To the best of my recollection, the Bible doesn't say that. It does have God only granting vegetation for food after the creation, and then granting vegetation and animals for food after the flood, but I'm pretty sure that there's nowhere that says that the animals actually didn't eat meat before the flood. If the world was "fallen" after Adam & Eve ate the fruit, then what would keep the animals from eating meat? Beyond that, what evidence does he have that carnivors used to be herbivors? (note: mythology doesn't count as evidence) Besides, we also have the problem of the fact that the ark supposedly carried a male and a female from each "kind" of animal. If some animals turned carnivorous and started eating meat when they exited the ark, then a lot of animal "kinds" would have disappeared right away, because you have to have both a male and a female to reproduce, so eating one of them poses a serious problem for the future of the "kind." therefore only needed plants,etc to live........which wouldn't produce much waste.... How so? If an animal eats a ton of plants or a ton of meat, then either way that's still a ton of food that has to go somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlyte777 Posted August 28, 2012 Author Share Posted August 28, 2012 Hey Patty, I just wanted to encourage you, you're doing really, really well I know I haven't participated in this thread much, but I've been watching from the sidelines. I admire you greatly for the effort you are putting in to finding the truth. You are asking good questions I keep tabs on this thread because I wait with baited breath to see that moment when everything just suddenly "clicks" into place in your mind, the same way everything clicked in my mind the weekend of October 30-31 last year. I spent so long being frustrated, trying to understand, trying to make sense of everything. Then suddenly, it all just seemed to come together, and I got it! It made sense! I went through that process all over again when I joined this forum, and I tried to learn about evolution. I had always been a literalist. I took Genesis literally. It had never occured to me that the flood could not have happened. Where did all that water come from? And where did it go? And what did people mean, when they said chickens descended from T-Rexes? Oh, how my head would hurt, as I strained to understand. I felt so stupid. So dumb. I couldn't work it out. And then, one night, I clicked on a documentary to watch. I was feeling pretty discouraged. I put it on to go to sleep to, but I ended up enthralled by it. Suddenly, it happened again. I got it! I got it! Suddenly, I understood the concept of evolution! So here I am going to put the documentary that I watched that night, that helped me to understand what evolution was. The documentary centered on the Dover trial about whether intelligent design should be taught in public science classrooms alongside evolution. They went into detail about the difference between evolution and intelligent design that helped me to see and understand that evolution was really how it all happened. I found this documentary easy to understand, and I hope you enjoy it and get the benefit from it that I did. Love, Pudd thank you so much Pudd........very revealing, and enlightening.......even as my hubby has found a video i watchd immediately after this one......from www.dino.com........ however thank you so much, love, Patty xx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 what he really wants to know is about Noah's Ark.........he believies the animals were babies........NOT carniverous until after the flood.....therefore only needed plants,etc to live........which wouldn't produce much waste....... 30,000 (based on an estimate of 15,000 unique "kinds" of higher order animals) animals not producing much waste during 9 months? We're talking about 30,000 * 9 * 30 piles. That's about 8 million piles. If each pile is only 1 fl oz (the size of a shot glass), we still have 8 million fl oz. That's 62,500 gallons. That's a big chunk of the ark. Or, just think about taking care of 30,000 piles of shit per day. That's 8.3 hours shift for one person if he can pick up one pile every second... every second. Or put it this way. It's one pile of shit every 3rd second, every day, for 270 days. Sorry. Another point, the rain. The flood had to rise about one foot every minute. It would require a rain hitting so hard and fast that it would break the ark, or at least create enormous whirlpools that would suck them down. Based on the same story being told in other religions and cultures, we can safely assume that this story is largely exaggerated in the Bible. It wasn't a global flood. It wasn't a deluge of that size. It was a flood, but very local one. (Don't remember where it was right now). sooooooo........back to square one........if you have the PERFECT...lol.....video on the ARK and how they all fit, lived, etc......please send to me.......and label it ARK so I know which one to show him..........sorry to put you all in this position, but you said from the beginning that I was not alone..........so, I need your help. ty so much! Patty xxx Impossible. You really can't fit all animals, with food, in there. And... both humans and animals need exercise. There will be some serious muscle dystrophy being locked in like that, in one position, squeezed in, not being able to breathe. Sorry, but the more you think about the story, the more you realize how childish it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlyte777 Posted August 28, 2012 Author Share Posted August 28, 2012 1. What blew up in the Big Bang? Nothing "blew up" strictly speaking. I just read "A Universe From Nothing" and according to it the universe came from literally nothing. No pre-existing space. No pre-existing energy. Nothing. This is the least stable state. Then, spontaneously, on a quantum level, there was something. *poof* And with all the conditions just right it could expand. If these conditions weren't right it just went away. *poof* So did this happen many times before? Who can say? But *poof* the universe did and with the conditions being right it expanded. Then, almost like hitting a switch, it slowed, then cooled. Then started on it's way to being the recognizable universe we know now. 2. After whatever blew up, how long until man came one the scene? Roughly 13.72 billion years (give or take). 3. If man evolved from apes, who don't all apes have a sould ans self-identity? Man didn't evolve from apes. "Souls," in some supernatural sense, aren't something that have been demonstrated to exist. As I recall Apes have been shown to be self-aware. If "soul" equates to being "self-aware" then apes have souls. 4. Adam and Eve were pure DNA........so incest didn't happen What is a "pure DNA?" Can Adam and Eve be demonstrated to have existed? Can they be shown to have this "pure DNA?" I would have no knowledge what kind of DNA a "dirt man" and "rib woman" would have. Adam and Eve would not be incest. Masturbation perhaps. Having sex with their off-spring would be incest no matter what DNA they might possess. The idea being no "bad" genetic mutations could pass as a result of the act. But incest passes both good and bad traits not just bad. The incest takes place as a result of sex with a close familial relation not negative genetic traits that may be passed. 5. Noah had pure DNA..........no incest...........the reason God had to kill all the people was because of fallen angels/demons who had intercourse with humans, thus corrupting their DNA Again how can we know any of this information about Noah? If he existed. If his DNA was "pure." Incest doesn't hinge on his DNA. Ionizing radiation, a bad copy, a virus, and other things can all alter DNA. I have never seen any evidence of "[intercourse with] fallen angels/demons" altering DNA. Not ever. It's also not mentioned in the biblical text that this was why the world was supposedly destroyed. The text says that the "god" of the bible was angry with everything even the animals, plants and the ground itself. So what, exactly, were these demons up to? They must have altered more than just the human DNA if everything needed to be done away with. 6. Lev 18 prohibits incest of any kind It came after. The easy way around this is that many of these rules can be "progressive" as a type of "progressive revelation" but then it gets resistance when Islam rolls around or the Mormons with their "revelations." It's only "progressive" up until their group and then the "revelations" stop. So "god" reveals a little bit. Things don't work. A little more. Nope. More. Still bad. And so one. Then "jesus." All done. Maybe a little more will happen at the "end times" but that's it. Then game over. So that verse was just one little step along the way that didn't quite work out. mwc ty mwc.........i know this........trying to convince a firm believer...........ty again.......Patty, xx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 ty mwc.........i know this........trying to convince a firm believer...........ty again.......Patty, xx No problem. But you don't convince firm believers. They must convince themselves. No amount of facts are likely to help you here. You may want to take up an interest in logical fallacies. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 Another thing Starlyte77. Look into Nephilims. The nephilims were the spawn of angels having intercourse with humans. The flood supposedly killed all nephilim. Yet, in Numbers 13:32-33, Nephilim existed (supposedly) when Moses wanted to take Palestine. So was the flood a failed attempt? How did they survive? Secondly, if the ark only had each of every "kind" of animal, and we today have millions of species, it means that all these "kinds" of animals from the ark evolved to all the different million species today. In other words, if Noah's ark is true, Evolution must also be true from then to now (but in a shorter timeframe than science suggests). How is that explained? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlyte777 Posted August 28, 2012 Author Share Posted August 28, 2012 ty mwc.........i know this........trying to convince a firm believer...........ty again.......Patty, xx No problem. But you don't convince firm believers. They must convince themselves. No amount of facts are likely to help you here. You may want to take up an interest in logical fallacies. mwc what is logical fallacies? ty again, Patty xx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlyte777 Posted August 28, 2012 Author Share Posted August 28, 2012 Another thing Starlyte77. Look into Nephilims. The nephilims were the spawn of angels having intercourse with humans. The flood supposedly killed all nephilim. Yet, in Numbers 13:32-33, Nephilim existed (supposedly) when Moses wanted to take Palestine. So was the flood a failed attempt? How did they survive? Secondly, if the ark only had each of every "kind" of animal, and we today have millions of species, it means that all these "kinds" of animals from the ark evolved to all the different million species today. In other words, if Noah's ark is true, Evolution must also be true from then to now (but in a shorter timeframe than science suggests). How is that explained? OMG...........it CANNOT be explained per your scenerio........I don't even believe that demons had sex with mortals.......am i just denying the obvious, or did it not happen? tell ya the truth........between what I listen to in videos, and what my H has me listen to......am more confused than ever........I want this to end,...........I don't like being at odds with him.........he asks me to stop watching videos yall send.........I refused to do so...........I need and want the truth....he's concerned for my "health, state of mind".......maybe he should be..........I'm the perverbial basket case now...........but, not willing to give up my searchh for the truth..........wherever that leads......ty again, Patty xx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlyte777 Posted August 28, 2012 Author Share Posted August 28, 2012 Wanting answers comes from within. He doesnt want to know. He wants to hold on to his warm fuzzy fairy tale. Just the way it 'tis. Thanks mcdaddy............thbbbbbbbb I didn't mean the thbbbbbbb as a dig........please forgive me if I offended you............Patty, xx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 what is logical fallacies? ty again, Patty xx That's a good question. And I'm going to let Wikipedia answer for me. In informal logic and rhetoric, a fallacy is usually an error in reasoning often due to a misconception or a presumption. Some so-called fallacies are not rhetorically intended to appeal to reason but rather to emotion, or a more nuanced disposition. An informal analysis of rhetorical patterns in fallacies should not be confused with rigorously formal arguments in logic, because rationally persuasive arguments require neither to be successful. Though often used unintentionally, so-called fallacies can be used purposefully to win arguments. Such rhetorical devices, discussed in more detail below, are: "ignoring the question" to divert argument to unrelated issues using a red herring; making the argument personal (argumentum ad hominem) and discrediting the opposition's character, "begging the question" (petitio principi), the use of the non-sequitur, false cause and effect (post hoc ergo propter hoc), bandwagoning (everyone says so), the "false dilemma" or "either-or fallacy" in which the situation is oversimplified, "card-stacking" or selective use of facts, and "false analogy". Another common device is the "false generalization", an abstraction of the argument that shifts discussion to platitudes where the facts of the matter are lost. There are many, many more tricks to divert attention from careful exploration of a subject.[1] A well defined formal fallacy, logical fallacy or deductive fallacy, is typically called an invalid argument. An informal fallacy is argument that may fail to be rationally persuasive. Read more here. There are many (hundreds) of fallacies. A quick look will show you a number in your 5 questions. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 OMG...........it CANNOT be explained per your scenerio........I don't even believe that demons had sex with mortals.......am i just denying the obvious, or did it not happen? Gen 6: 1. When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2. The sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3. Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years." 4. The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown. The phrase "sons of God" is an expression for angels (not demons). tell ya the truth........between what I listen to in videos, and what my H has me listen to......am more confused than ever........I want this to end,...........I don't like being at odds with him.........he asks me to stop watching videos yall send.........I refused to do so...........I need and want the truth....he's concerned for my "health, state of mind".......maybe he should be..........I'm the perverbial basket case now...........but, not willing to give up my searchh for the truth..........wherever that leads......ty again, Patty xx Breaking the bondage of religion is very hard and mentally exhausting. Take one day at a time. Don't rush it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlyte777 Posted August 28, 2012 Author Share Posted August 28, 2012 Here's one video There are innumerable videos and websites out there that lay out why the flood is impossible. Of course, you will find videos and websites that support the flood myth. The creationists had to invent non biblical "facts" to make it work, like baby animals, changing the definition of incest, etc. The bottom line is that if someone wants to hold onto an irrational belief, they can find a way to do so. If they just take one step back and look rationally, they won't be able to hold on to the ridiculous. ty son..............makes so much sense to me........but, trying to convince him.........I'll ask him to watch this......and not tell him who it's from......will see what happens.........luv you! mom xx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaddy Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 Star, this is only my opinion, but you're probably better off not trying to engage your hubby with this stuff. He needs to approach it on his own terms. You showing him things will only put him on the defensive and make him dig in his heels and become stronger in his belief. If he ever wants to know the truth, he'll go about finding it according to his own rules. People dont like being shown they're wrong about some of the most basic things about reality, but they dont mind seeing that they're wrong if they're doing the searching privately. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlyte777 Posted August 28, 2012 Author Share Posted August 28, 2012 Here's one video There are innumerable videos and websites out there that lay out why the flood is impossible. Of course, you will find videos and websites that support the flood myth. The creationists had to invent non biblical "facts" to make it work, like baby animals, changing the definition of incest, etc. The bottom line is that if someone wants to hold onto an irrational belief, they can find a way to do so. If they just take one step back and look rationally, they won't be able to hold on to the ridiculous. ty son..............makes so much sense to me........but, trying to convince him.........I'll ask him to watch this......and not tell him who it's from......will see what happens.........luv you! mom xx he watched this video.........said it was "very funny"..............an hour and a half later..............we stopped talking...........am exhausted with this......don't know what to do now......or where to turn........i still want the truth.............luv ya xx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlyte777 Posted August 28, 2012 Author Share Posted August 28, 2012 Star, this is only my opinion, but you're probably better off not trying to engage your hubby with this stuff. He needs to approach it on his own terms. You showing him things will only put him on the defensive and make him dig in his heels and become stronger in his belief. If he ever wants to know the truth, he'll go about finding it according to his own rules. People dont like being shown they're wrong about some of the most basic things about reality, but they dont mind seeing that they're wrong if they're doing the searching privately. you're right mcdaddy........i won't show him anymore........it doesn't help anything.......but he insists I watch some of his........If I say no..........am I being obstinate? will he accuse me of not wanting to hear both sides? the answer is YES on both counts.........but, I can refuse, and suffer the silence I will receive by doing so...........I can only hope this doesn't break us up.........I have been having nightmares that he leaves me........I'm not only searching for truth, I'm scared of the reprocussions of finding that truth........if it is NOT GOD!! ty mcdaddy...........Patty xx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlyte777 Posted August 28, 2012 Author Share Posted August 28, 2012 OMG...........it CANNOT be explained per your scenerio........I don't even believe that demons had sex with mortals.......am i just denying the obvious, or did it not happen? Gen 6: 1. When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2. The sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3. Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years." 4. The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown. The phrase "sons of God" is an expression for angels (not demons). tell ya the truth........between what I listen to in videos, and what my H has me listen to......am more confused than ever........I want this to end,...........I don't like being at odds with him.........he asks me to stop watching videos yall send.........I refused to do so...........I need and want the truth....he's concerned for my "health, state of mind".......maybe he should be..........I'm the perverbial basket case now...........but, not willing to give up my searchh for the truth..........wherever that leads......ty again, Patty xx Breaking the bondage of religion is very hard and mentally exhausting. Take one day at a time. Don't rush it. ok wait........why would God let his ANGELS have sex with mortals? What was the purpose? that''s just obscene.......txs again........Patty xx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaddy Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 OMG...........it CANNOT be explained per your scenerio........I don't even believe that demons had sex with mortals.......am i just denying the obvious, or did it not happen? Gen 6: 1. When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2. The sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3. Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years." 4. The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown. The phrase "sons of God" is an expression for angels (not demons). tell ya the truth........between what I listen to in videos, and what my H has me listen to......am more confused than ever........I want this to end,...........I don't like being at odds with him.........he asks me to stop watching videos yall send.........I refused to do so...........I need and want the truth....he's concerned for my "health, state of mind".......maybe he should be..........I'm the perverbial basket case now...........but, not willing to give up my searchh for the truth..........wherever that leads......ty again, Patty xx Breaking the bondage of religion is very hard and mentally exhausting. Take one day at a time. Don't rush it. ok wait........why would God let his ANGELS have sex with mortals? What was the purpose? that''s just obscene.......txs again........Patty xx When you accept most of the stuff in the bible, for what is is (mythology), it makes a lot more sense. It's like the saying, " The world makes far more sense when you realize noone's at the wheel". Don't let something like this ruin what otherwise is a good relationship. I would do as you said, just back off and let your search be just your journey. You can't show someone else the way when you're not sure where it is you're going yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 ok wait........why would God let his ANGELS have sex with mortals? What was the purpose? that''s just obscene.......txs again........Patty xx This is a common pattern in old religious stories. Angels, gods (Zeus for instance) coming down and impregnating women. It's just another borrowed story from earlier religions. An angel came down and impregnated Mary with God's seed to make her preggers with Jesus. It's the same story too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlyte777 Posted August 28, 2012 Author Share Posted August 28, 2012 ok wait........why would God let his ANGELS have sex with mortals? What was the purpose? that''s just obscene.......txs again........Patty xx This is a common pattern in old religious stories. Angels, gods (Zeus for instance) coming down and impregnating women. It's just another borrowed story from earlier religions. An angel came down and impregnated Mary with God's seed to make her preggers with Jesus. It's the same story too. no. that was GOD who impregnated Mary.......right? who the hell knows..............i'm just sayin............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlyte777 Posted August 28, 2012 Author Share Posted August 28, 2012 ok wait........why would God let his ANGELS have sex with mortals? What was the purpose? that''s just obscene.......txs again........Patty xx This is a common pattern in old religious stories. Angels, gods (Zeus for instance) coming down and impregnating women. It's just another borrowed story from earlier religions. An angel came down and impregnated Mary with God's seed to make her preggers with Jesus. It's the same story too. no. that was GOD who impregnated Mary.......right? who the hell knows..............i'm just sayin............ oh and ty for responding...........Patty xx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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