Killing In The Name Of Atheism

[Antlerman]

3.

Are you saying that we should just sit back and passively take all the shit End's throws at us because we have some kind of moral obligation to do so or are you saying that we should do it simply because of reasons of forum etiquette? Those are the only two reasons I can think of right now, so if I've missed something, please inform me.

 

This section/forum/part of the website is called "General Theological Issues." We're supposed to act nicer and more proper in this part of town during a discussion. I don't think big sized blue letters calling people trolls is a proper and nice way of discussing. Take that in another part of the site. It's okay if you do it in Lion's Den, but not in Theological Issues.

Ditto that. I weary of the use of the word troll.

[bornagainathiest]

Thanks for the replies, A-man and O.

 

Could you please also respond to #1 and #2, so that I may know where you stand on those issues.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[Antlerman]

 

1.

You seem to be saying that it's ok for a Christian (who shouldn't dish out shit, no matter what) to act immorally and dish out shit and then you'd like us to do End's job and act in a moral fashion, by just accepting his shit - as if we're the Christians. How close to the mark am I here?

Speaking only for myself as a moderator here, if I saw End going after someone over and over calling them a troll, and trying to get others to side with him against them, and challenging the moderators for not doing their jobs because he disagrees with how he sees things should be managed here, I would set him down just like any other member after a certain amount of cutting slack. I don't have double standards that way, either for or against people because of their labels. I never have. I allow people to lose their shit now and then, but there are limits, and End himself has experienced those here on a few occasions.

 

2.

Surely exposing the errors and disinformation of Christianity is an integral part of this forum's function? That would apply to any section - the Lion's Den, the Theological Issues area, anywhere, right? Therefore, as long as End remains a member he's going to have to encounter threats to his beliefs on a daily basis, no matter where he goes in this site. In fact, the guy actively goes looking for trouble by deliberately posting new threads as 'bait', to reel us in so that he can jerk us around for his own ends. (True or not?) That being so, should we rein ourselves in and avoid threatening his beliefs? It sounds to me a bit like you're asking us to stop being what we are and doing what we do, in favor of something else? So, what would this other course of action be?

I don't see any of this as 'not threatening his beliefs'. I believe challenging beliefs is a positive thing. I do it with End all the time. But how do I go about doing that? By insulting him? Calling him a manipulative troll? Personally, I don't see that as actually about challenging beliefs. Do you?

[Ouroboros]

It looks like Asanerman's assessment of End's psyche is pretty close to the mark. If that's so and End only gets defensive, aggressive, cruel and trollish when he feels scared, what hope is there of any kind of measured and rational, open discussion with him? The more we engage with him and reasonably and rationally take apart his comforting delusions, the more scared he's going to get.

Wouldn't it make sense to engage with him instead then to push him in the right direction instead of arguing with STATEMENTS IN BIG FUCKING LETTERS!

 

If we go down the road you suggest, won't our honest and open overtures just be met with further shit? Or, putting it more politely, an increasingly desperate tirade of defensive insults, mockery, slights and general obnoxiousness as his beliefs are demonstrated to be nothing more than selfish, wishful thinking? The more threatened he feels, the more he's going to push back, right?

My irritation was only about calling other people trolls, and doing so in UNNECESSARY BIG LETTERS TO CALL ATTENTION TO ONESELF!

 

The point I'm making is this.

 

The onus is on the Christians to turn the other cheek when mocked, insulted and derided. Their God asks and expects them to do exactly what you're suggesting we should do with End when he mocks, insults and derides us. We Ex-Christians and non-Christians are under no such Biblical obligation to accept this kind of behavior, especially when it comes from so-called Christians. I reckon that there's a glaring asymmetry in what you're asking us to do here, Ouroboros.

The point is to DISCUSS WITHOUT NON-DISCUSSED ISSUES WITHOUT PROPER SUPPORT IN POST USING BIG LETTERS IN PRETTY COLORS!!!

 

I'm 100% on the level here, ok? So my serious and sincere questions to you are these.

I'm not sure which 100% you're talking about.

 

1.

You seem to be saying that it's ok for a Christian (who shouldn't dish out shit, no matter what) to act immorally and dish out shit and then you'd like us to do End's job and act in a moral fashion, by just accepting his shit - as if we're the Christians. How close to the mark am I here?

Eh. About 13.6 billion light years of the mark. The concept flew right by the galaxies in the deep field of space. It had nothing to do with you engaging in a debate... no wait. I does have to do with you engaging in a debate. Debates are not argued in BIG FUCKING LETTERS IN PRETTY COLORS!!!

 

So I suggest you discuss and say what you want to say, instead of calling names and doing so in ... you know what I was going to put there...

 

2.

Surely exposing the errors and disinformation of Christianity is an integral part of this forum's function? That would apply to any section - the Lion's Den, the Theological Issues area, anywhere, right? Therefore, as long as End remains a member he's going to have to encounter threats to his beliefs on a daily basis, no matter where he goes in this site. In fact, the guy actively goes looking for trouble by deliberately posting new threads as 'bait', to reel us in so that he can jerk us around for his own ends. (True or not?) That being so, should we rein ourselves in and avoid threatening his beliefs? It sounds to me a bit like you're asking us to stop being what we are and doing what we do, in favor of something else? So, what would this other course of action be?

Huh? Wait. I will give you a last argument where I expose the error of what you did:

 

YOU SHOULDN'T USE BIG FUCKING LETTERS IN PRETTY COLORS CALLING PEOPLE TROLLS IN A SERIOUS DISCUSSION THREAD!!!

 

 

I hope this doesn't make me seem to be an attention whore, craving for everyone just looking at my big fucking letters in pretty colors...

 

 

This section is called GENERAL THEOLOGICAL ISSUES, and not LION'S DEN. Call names in LION'S DEN, I won't stop you, but not in GENERAL THEOLOGICAL ISSUES.

 

So do you know who wins this little sidetracked issue here? I do, because I can do BIG FUCKING LETTERS IN COLOR!!!

(And you know I'm discussing this on a serious level since I'm using Comic-Sans-Serif font)

[bornagainathiest]

Thank you for your measured response Ouroboros.

 

I think I see where I stand now.

 

But please take back the attention whore label. I resent that.

 

Using different colors and large letters is something I've done since I joined up, so this is not a recent, attention-seeking exercise on my part.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[Akheia]

And you have to ask, what kind of language destroys the self worth in a child.....and why on earth would anyone want to do that?

 

Annnnnnnnnd here's End avoiding my question. Again.

 

So End:

 

Since you have no proof whatsoever that any of Christianity's claims are true beyond your poorly-defined feelings and wild hopes that they are--both things that people in diametrically-different religions have, incidentally, so those are hardly to be called "proof" of any sort--shall we get back on target by exploring what this terror of Death is that you have? I've always had this vague feeling that fear drives a lot of your religious leanings, fear and a childish need for excessive comfort and reassurance. Nothing wrong with that if you happen to be, well, a child, and not a grown man with kids of his own. But the latter is what you claim to be, and so it is exceedingly strange and remarkable to see you talking like you do.

 

Bear in mind that it is not required for anybody dismantling an erroneous argument to come up with a better one--only to dismantle the argument that is false. Once it's dismantled, then yes, exploring what might be the good argument is fascinating stuff. But you're not fully dismantled yet.

[asanerman]

Let me please add.....about "flying in the face of the unknown". Just because I see and can find rationalization within the Christian context does NOT make me fucking scared of life. The take home message of ALL OF THESE ARGUMENTS is that NONE OF US KNOW at the moment. So get off my fucking back about finding a better identity. If anything it takes suffering and strength on many levels to be reborn.

 

And again, my ears are open waiting for the answer to effectively turn this off. Granted you are spot on, but that doesn't feed the bulldog. Do you feel better now for your diagnosis? Is this your means of curing me? Will it? Does it look like I am not cognizant of the problem already?

 

Let me tell you, it didn't help.

 

My comments were based upon the influences of your responses and what they engender within me. My comments came from within me. They say more about me that they say about you! That is to say, that my comments reflect where I've been and where I am. When I extrude what you say through my own particular set of values and virtues

a part of myself is reflected back to me. I catch a fresh glimpse of my own struggle.

 

What my comments reflect is not an analysis of you but of what I see in my self. I regret not making that clear.

 

I'm not surprised by your response but my intention was not to intimidate or malign.

 

I'm not surprised, your reaction is a reflection of my own!

 

For some strange reason, while reading your responses, the questions came to me, "What do I want to feel and to experience? What do I want to happen that hasn't? What

do I find in the words of this person, End, that stirs me so deeply?

 

And you have to ask, what kind of language destroys the self worth in a child.....and why on earth would anyone want to do that?

 

What Aman says is true!

 

I ask myself this question, End, "What of the child who withdraws in terror into his own private universe because he cannot cope with the inconsistencies of the adults who tell him that he is guilty by nature, that his body is evil, that thinking is sinful, that question-asking is blasphemous, that doubting is depravity and that he must obey the orders of a supernatural unknown because, if he doesn't, he will burn in hell?"

 

What of the adolescent son who in hopeless despair, gives up the attempt to solve his own problems because he has always heard it preached, in the little chapel on the corner, that this earth is a place of misery, futility and doom, where no happiness or fulfillment is possible to mankind?

 

What of that hypocrisy?

 

If the mentality behind such wreckage bears a grave moral responsibility, there is a group who, perhaps, bear a graver responsibility still, those rational and compassionate people who see the divination caused by such a devastating mentality and the doctrines that influence it, but who remain silent and do not protest, thus lending their silent sanction to spiritual murder.

 

What of that?

 

What of the soul (by soul I mean a man's or a woman's consciousness and his or her basic motivational values) that say's "I know what is needed, but I can't"--

what of that. What is the genius of that?

 

Going back to where my problems began may be instructive and valuable but it is utterly impotent if it gives me no clue as to how and what I am doing in the present to keep my angst alive!

 

If I learn that the frustrations, the despair, the utter wreckage of my life are traceable to my deficiency of my self worth and the policies that led to that deficiency, it is imperative that I learn the resolution if my dilemma.

 

Our need for efficacy (the confidence that what I need is within my power to morally have and that I'm competent in meeting my need) and self worth is inherent in human nature. But we are not born with the knowledge of what will satisfy that need or of the standard by which my self-esteem (efficacy and self-worth) is to be gauged, I must discover it!

 

I learned early on that there was no treasure to be found in me. So, what fool would dig for treasure in a barren field?

 

"And you have to ask, what kind of language destroys the self worth in a child [in any human being].....and why on earth would anyone want to do that?

 

 

Because they are broken inside. So much of what we tell ourselves keeps us there.

 

I'm tried of being "broken inside."

[Guest end3]

And you have to ask, what kind of language destroys the self worth in a child.....and why on earth would anyone want to do that?

 

Annnnnnnnnd here's End avoiding my question. Again.

 

So End:

 

Since you have no proof whatsoever that any of Christianity's claims are true beyond your poorly-defined feelings and wild hopes that they are--both things that people in diametrically-different religions have, incidentally, so those are hardly to be called "proof" of any sort--shall we get back on target by exploring what this terror of Death is that you have? I've always had this vague feeling that fear drives a lot of your religious leanings, fear and a childish need for excessive comfort and reassurance. Nothing wrong with that if you happen to be, well, a child, and not a grown man with kids of his own. But the latter is what you claim to be, and so it is exceedingly strange and remarkable to see you talking like you do.

 

Bear in mind that it is not required for anybody dismantling an erroneous argument to come up with a better one--only to dismantle the argument that is false. Once it's dismantled, then yes, exploring what might be the good argument is fascinating stuff. But you're not fully dismantled yet.

 

I think I pretty much explained my fear in my defensiveness towards Asanerman, but I appreciate you asking. Basically, the way I understand it....piecing all this together. I am a "you're not good enough" child. As I was saying, I have no idea of how I became that way as I was not cognizant of being "abused". So long story short, I inhereted condescesion, blah, blah.

 

Then at age 12, dad divorced mom and we moved. Looking back I remember near crying episodes thoughout high school thinking dad didn't love me I assume. So as I grew, I gather that my hurt turned towards anger and my anger to hate. Having the condescending attributes, it made it easier to be effective at hate.

 

So I have been alive 47 years and only became aware of this potential pathway to hate via going to a Walk to Emmaus weekend where I felt Jesus saying, "when you hurt others, you hurt me"......which is totally opposite of my metality.....as I had always considered myself a victim of my circumstances.

 

And the Biblical analogy that fits here, is I grew a tree of hate rather than a tree of Life.....threw that in there for you...lol. (I'm teasing you of course).

 

So I credit no human with giving me the correct diagnosis, or cause of my "stuff". And here we sit A,

 

The fear(s) are these. I don't want to repeat my father's life.....and it is damn difficult having the same attributes he has. Our lives are remarkably similar other that he has been married six times and me only once. He quit Christianity and I haven't. I am fearful that I will hurt my children if my wife and I divorce.....as I was hurt. In that, my confidence has to remain "low" because the only thing I am really good at is hate.

 

Also, as all parents are, we are afraid of losing a child.

 

Those are major fears. And my trust level sucks because probably if I trust someone to be in my life and then they leave, it triggers the hurt. So, I used to hate first and build a relationship second......kind of a guage I think guaging the other person.

 

Again, this is as dismantled as i get. I can give you 57 ways if not many more of how this correlates with Christianity....so I don't think it necessary to try and disuade me there, I ain't goin.

 

Your tone read differently, thank you.

[bornagainathiest]

Well, it looks like I haven't been banned yet.

 

Nor have I acquired any Warning Points.

 

Therefore, in the spirit of reconcilliation I would like to offer Ouroboros and Antlerman an apology for any bad feeling generated by this episode.

 

I will certainly abide by the principles you've outlined to me; refraining from any unneccessary confrontation, refraining from any maneuvers you deem to be attention-seeking and conducting myself with due respect to ALL members, whether they deserve it or not.

 

Therefore, I look forward to a resumption of cordial relations with everyone in this forum.

 

Thank you,

 

BAA.

[Akheia]

Wow. I think that was a really brave thing to open up and say, End.

 

I hear what you're saying about this "tree of hate." That's the fruit you're producing most of the time on this forum. You learned that from the people around you in childhood (and may they all be keelhauled for doing that to a little kid). But does it have to be this way? Can't people make "trees of life" without the barbaric religion? It's so unspeakably sad to hear you talking like you do about yourself. I give you a lot of shit, I do, but you're not a bad person. It breaks my heart to hear you denigrate yourself.

 

Your fear of repeating your dad's life is a valid one that I think everybody goes through. I'd rather not repeat my own dad's numerous mistakes either. But the religion's totally separate from those sins he committed against you and your family. Lots of Christians are abusive and get divorced multiple times (I'm thinking of one lady, the mother of a friend, who's on her 4th or 5th by now). Being a Christian doesn't mean you're suddenly a good person any more than being a non-Christian means you're a bad person. And people sincerely following what they think is Jesus can commit some truly horrible crimes against people via bigotry and ignorance--like parents who try to pray their kids well, or those fundies who got chicken sandwiches yesterday to help Chik-Fil-A contribute to causes alienating and vilifying gay people. Religion and morality are two different beasts, mutually exclusive. A good person is a good person regardless of what religion, if any, s/he pursues. A jackass who gets religion will still be a jackass. So why do you equate "Christian" with "good" when the evidence is in: non-Christians are good people too? Why do you have to follow a false religion to be good?

 

I sincerely hope none of your kids is sick (you mentioned being scared of losing one). That's got to be just horrifying to a parent, the worst fear of all terrible fears to encounter. If you are scared of that, then yeah, being scared of death and hiding in the comfort of any denial of that death sounds pretty logical. But even then. Even then. When I was with my mom as she died, it was hard. Oh, it sucked so bad. But I think that being free of Christianity's lies helped me get through it. I didn't have to worry that she was in hell or "purgatory," which as an excommunicated Catholic she was pretty much going to be. Death is scary, I won't lie to you. But I won't tell you any lies about it being "defeated." Death's just part of being alive, and there's so little we understand about it. There's a reason religions often feature gods getting resurrected--did you imagine Christianity was the first or only one to do that? I'd rather accept it and move on and appreciate what I have now than course through the only life I know I have hoping against hope that there'll be a do-over later. It ain't easy, but it sure feels more honest. You know what I'm saying?

[Akheia]

BAA, you doll. I'm just glad to return to our previously-scheduled theological wrangling.

[Guest end3]

For some strange reason, while reading your responses, the questions came to me, "What do I want to feel and to experience? What do I want to happen that hasn't? What

do I find in the words of this person, End, that stirs me so deeply?

 

You know I have great respect fo you. What typically happens to me is that I read quickly and form an immediate defensive posture . It can also be aggravated by the time of day, which I am sure happend here. I don't dislike you at all, nor am I angry. You see who I am unfortunately ..... but fortunate for me as well. Kind of tired of apologizing in my life, but my apologies.

 

Your statement here.....for me it would be the relaxation of acceptance......no anxiety, just being me without having to think about it or consider it. Many people say, "if you'll just do this", or you are "so close to seeing". Very frustrating. The statement I just typed is about as succinct as I can pinpoint it.

 

I ask myself this question, End, "What of the child who withdraws in terror into his own private universe because he cannot cope with the inconsistencies of the adults who tell him that he is guilty by nature, that his body is evil, that thinking is sinful, that question-asking is blasphemous, that doubting is depravity and that he must obey the orders of a supernatural unknown because, if he doesn't, he will burn in hell?"

 

What of the adolescent son who in hopeless despair, gives up the attempt to solve his own problems because he has always heard it preached, in the little chapel on the corner, that this earth is a place of misery, futility and doom, where no happiness or fulfillment is possible to mankind?

 

What of that hypocrisy?

 

If the mentality behind such wreckage bears a grave moral responsibility, there is a group who, perhaps, bear a graver responsibility still, those rational and compassionate people who see the divination caused by such a devastating mentality and the doctrines that influence it, but who remain silent and do not protest, thus lending their silent sanction to spiritual murder.

 

What of that?

 

What of the soul (by soul I mean a man's or a woman's consciousness and his or her basic motivational values) that say's "I know what is needed, but I can't"--

what of that. What is the genius of that?

 

Going back to where my problems began may be instructive and valuable but it is utterly impotent if it gives me no clue as to how and what I am doing in the present to keep my angst alive!

Very inspiring, but at least a twofold delimma. One, stress pushes me back somehow, and two, I have no treasure to mine. The things that make me me, are not the things that I deem beautiful in this world. So I kinda at a loss. I can see enjoying the beauty of a child, or watching young people grow, but havesting anything worthy from my past is as you say impotent. It's meaning less these days, but still rears it's ugly head.

 

 

If I learn that the frustrations, the despair, the utter wreckage of my life are traceable to my deficiency of my self worth and the policies that led to that deficiency, it is imperative that I learn the resolution if my dilemma.

Like walking across a desert.

 

 

 

Our need for efficacy (the confidence that what I need is within my power to morally have and that I'm competent in meeting my need) and self worth is inherent in human nature. But we are not born with the knowledge of what will satisfy that need or of the standard by which my self-esteem (efficacy and self-worth) is to be gauged, I must discover it!

 

I learned early on that there was no treasure to be found in me. So, what fool would dig for treasure in a barren field?

 

"And you have to ask, what kind of language destroys the self worth in a child [in any human being].....and why on earth would anyone want to do that?

 

 

Because they are broken inside. So much of what we tell ourselves keeps us there.

 

 

Guess I could attempt to move on despite the fear.

 

Very much appreciated, thank you.

[asanerman]

 

Very inspiring, but at least a twofold delimma. One, stress pushes me back somehow, and two, I have no treasure to mine. The things that make me me, are not the things that I deem beautiful in this world. So I kinda at a loss. I can see enjoying the beauty of a child, or watching young people grow, but havesting anything worthy from my past is as you say impotent. It's meaning less these days, but still rears it's ugly head.

 

That ugly head is what the world sees! That ugly head can be the catalysis for becoming worthy and adequate, fit for happiness and enduring joy and peace.

 

As an old friend of mine once said "Tulips from cow manure!"

 

What I find healing in my history is not to repeat my suffering. All that has been has been, my future does not have to be as my past once was. What I learn from my past equips me to stop the madness and repair the brokenness.

 

Guess I could attempt to move on despite the fear.

 

 

Feel the fear and move!

 

That ugly head that rears itself demands that you move or it will eat you alive!

 

One heart ache at a time!

 

If "the kingdom is within you!" Why squander it?

[Akheia]

Life's pretty damn short. If there's no proof of anything past this life, I'm not going to waste my time fucking around worrying about that next life. If there are gods, if they're any good at all they're going to care a lot more about what I did with this life than about what I did flailing around in preparation for the next world. Fear is for children. Lies are for placation, not for growing and moving ahead. To paraphrase Westley, we are adults. Lies do not become us.

[asanerman]

Life's pretty damn short. If there's no proof of anything past this life, I'm not going to waste my time fucking around worrying about that next life. If there are gods, if they're any good at all they're going to care a lot more about what I did with this life than about what I did flailing around in preparation for the next world. Fear is for children. Lies are for placation, not for growing and moving ahead. To paraphrase Westley, we are adults. Lies do not become us.

 

Seems as though common sense is not that common!

 

We are the only species able to reject, sabotage, and betray our basic means of survival, our rational faculty, our mind.

 

How is it that if a person hold life on earth as basically good and judges his or her values by the standards of that which is proper to existence of a rational being, how is it that she/he makes himself/herself unworthy of living--unfit?

 

Common sense "ain't" so common!

 

Is that uncommon sense?

[Ouroboros]

Thank you for your measured response Ouroboros.

You mean like your 3 or 4 posts with oversize big blue letters? That's argument from SCREAMING. And it's a fallacy. A claim isn't made true because you're putting it on a billboard and screaming it from the rooftops.

 

I think I see where I stand now

Your response above says another thing.

 

But please take back the attention whore label. I resent that.

Then don't call people trolls in fucking big blue letters to call attention to your shouting. Perhaps I should say it in even bigger letters... because then it must be true.

 

I don't think you seriously understand that this part of the website is for discussion of theological issues and not the free-for-all lion's den. There's a difference. And if you can't understand the difference, then you shouldn't participate in this part of the website. Stay in the lion's den if screaming "TROLL" is your forté.

 

Using different colors and large letters is something I've done since I joined up, so this is not a recent, attention-seeking exercise on my part.

Colors is fine. But blowing them up in 48 pt size and just calling someone names... No. That's not what you have been doing in the past.

 

And again, for the 10th time. THIS SECTION HERE IS IN A FORUM CALLED "GENERAL THEOLOGICAL ISSUES" and not "LET'S CALL PEOPLE NAMES IN FUCKING BIG LETTERS." It's not anyone's AD HOMINEM BILLBOARD.

 

SO NO! That's NOT what you've been doing in the past. This is the first time I've seen you do it, and I nicely asked you to stop and you challenged it by making claims that you can't question the Christians. What the HELL? Big fucking colored letters for billboarding "YOU'RE A TROLL" is a serious method of discussion?

 

 

With that said. This thread has lost its value and function so I'm locking it down.

 

And hopefully everyone else understands that ARGUMENT FROM SCREAMING in "General Theological Issues" is NOT OKAY.