Suzy Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 My country doesn't have the death penalty since 1990, but from time to time the issue comes up when the media focuses on a murder case, like it happened recently. Then some people throw in the need of restoring the death penalty (though everybody knows it's impossible because EU laws don't allow it for the member countries to have the death penalty). As a fundy Christian that I used to be I agreed with the death penalty, just because my church agreed with it. Now, that I have my own mind, I have ambivalent feelings about it but I lean rather to not supporting it. Yes, sometimes when I hear about a horrible crime and a cynical murderer, I feel tempted to support the death penalty and it's not like I feel sorry for a cynical mass murderer. However, there is always the risk of sentencing someone innocent to death. I read since 1976 about 300 people who have been put to death by death penalty, have been found innocent based on new evidence, such as DNA. That's just too many. Heck, even one person executed innocently would be too much IMO! Imagine if that one person is you! Because of that I rather support life imprisonment without parole. That can be turned around in the light of new evidence, unlike the death penalty. Also it is probably a bigger punishment than death: living a life without the possibility of being free again. Death is too easy of an escape. So since I'm not a Christian I do not really support the death penalty. What about you? It's also interesting that fundy Christians tend to support it, based on OT laws, such as eye for eye, tooth for tooth. My church explained it so that while we are not under OT law any more because of Jesus, however the World is. So I guess, rape, slavery etc. too should be made OK for the World... Also have you noticed the Christian hypocrisy through cases like Karla Faye Tucker's? When fundy Christians, who otherwise support the DP, campaigned for her not to be executed because she converted to Christianity in prison: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karla_Faye_Tucker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Death penalty may seem the only appropriate way to go sometimes (read: particularly gruesome crimes like those of Fritzl or others), but...: 1. If you think that will scare potential criminals into not committing their acts, think again. Every criminal who does what makes him a criminal does so because either he thinks he's too smart to get caught, or because he doesn't care anyway ("I got nutting left to lose!"), or because he's out of his mind (drunk or such). Why exactly should a somewhat more gruesome punishment scare him? It might work with a significant difference between the punishments, say, either pay a fine of 100 bucks or be jailed for 5 years; however, one would think the really disgusting things one can do will earn one a long prison time already anyway. Dunno, maybe I'm the only one who doesn't see any significance in that... 2. If there's one single irreversible penalty that man can inflict on his fellow man it's death. Do we have the right to do that? Are we even sure, for starters, that the culprit is really guilty? Pardon the religious language but seriously... who do we think we are, gods? As I see it, the only possible justification left for putting someone to death, after we dealt with the above ones, is vengeance. Petty vengeance. Help me out please, whom will that vengeance help again? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Xtech Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 It's vengeance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxie Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Hmmm. At one time I was all for the death penalty, especially if the crime involved a child. And I'll admit, I have a mean streak in me that would surprize a lot of people. There are certain people that have caused my family and me such pain that I even fantasize about torturing them to death. (Shh, don't tell anyone.) But then, I think, well, once they are dead, it's over. No more pain for them, while I'm still suffering from the problem they caused, or worse, imprisoned for my actions and causing more pain to my family. Now I think the people on death row should be subjected to a lifetime of regretting what they did, like maybe a mandatory 24/7 run of the 700 club or the like. Not that a narcissist would be sorry, but they wouldn't be allowed to hurt anyone else. They say solitary confinement drive people over the edge. Actually, solitary confinement would be the best torture for some people who think they are above the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentLoner Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 However, there is always the risk of sentencing someone innocent to death. I read since 1976 about 300 people who have been put to death by death penalty, have been found innocent based on new evidence, such as DNA. That's just too many. Heck, even one person executed innocently would be too much IMO! Imagine if that one person is you! There's always a risk of sentencing an innocent person to life without parole. You do know there have been innocent people who lived out their lives and died behind bars. Imagine if that person was you? Yet I don't see any people advocating eliminating life without parole on that basis. That's what life without parole really means - death behind bars. Much like a death sentence, the only way you leave is stiff in a pine box. I agree that I don't like the use of the death penalty in cases with circumstantial evidence. But I support it. Funny thing is I think I support it now more than I did when I was xtian. When I was xtian, I had been told that "God is patient. So is satan." in regards to criminal cases like this. Its one of the few things I miss about believing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentLoner Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 It's vengeance. So? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted July 21, 2012 Super Moderator Share Posted July 21, 2012 Facts: 1. The death penalty is in no way a deterrent to others. 2. Innocent people do get wrongly convicted. 3. Serial killers, mass murders, and perps of other heinous crimes are usually mentally ill or incompetent. 4. Revenge is still sweet (and justified) to lots of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 4. Revenge is still sweet (and justified) to lots of people. I suspect it's more anti climactic than most are willing to admit. Especially for the family members of the victims. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denyoz Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 I wouldn't want to be the one hired to put someone to death. Wife: "How was work today, honey?" Me: "The usual, I killed 8 people." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qadeshet Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Life without parole is a better option. Suppose you are an innocent person condemned to die? At least the State has a chance to catch the real killer and make things right. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser01 Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 I think the jury has to be unanimous which would be easy to acquire in mass murder cases. The prison system in my opinion needs to teach people to be better people by giving them things to do such as turning our prisons into textile factories or farms and teaching those with light sentences small buissness education so when they get out they can stimulate the economy, but that's an other topic entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzy Posted July 21, 2012 Author Share Posted July 21, 2012 However, there is always the risk of sentencing someone innocent to death. I read since 1976 about 300 people who have been put to death by death penalty, have been found innocent based on new evidence, such as DNA. That's just too many. Heck, even one person executed innocently would be too much IMO! Imagine if that one person is you! There's always a risk of sentencing an innocent person to life without parole. You do know there have been innocent people who lived out their lives and died behind bars. Imagine if that person was you? Yet I don't see any people advocating eliminating life without parole on that basis. The point is, at least with imprisonment you have a way to reverse it, in case new evidence is found. There is absolutely no chance for that when the person has already been executed. There was such a case recently in my country. A guy was sentenced for life imprisonment for a bank robbery in which many people were killed. Then it turned out he was innocent, so he was released from prison. Of course, no one gives him back the years he spent in prison, but at least his life wasn't taken away. It still sucks, I agree, if people spend time in prison for crimes they did not commit. But when they are executed there is no way to correct the mistake any more. Whether correcting the mistake always happens (probably not) is another question, but at least it leaves the chance. As for closure. Not every family of a victim supports the death penalty. For example, in the recent case I mentioned in my opening post, the family of the victim asked people, politicians, certain media here to STOP using this case in support of the death penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 I think the jury has to be unanimous which would be easy to acquire in mass murder cases. The jury always has to be unanimous in criminal court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankStranger Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 I'd probably be in favor of the death penalty if we could know 100% that a person is guilty as charged. But unfortunately, our criminal "justice" system has proven time and again that it can't be trusted to make such a determination. Therefore I don't trust them to mete out capital punishment. I have my doubts about our modern notions of 'prison', too... but at least somebody can be set free WHEN (not if) some are found to be wrongly convicted. You can't bring the wrongly executed back to life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentLoner Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Life without parole is a better option. Suppose you are an innocent person condemned to die? At least the State has a chance to catch the real killer and make things right. That applies to both a death sentence and life without parole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentLoner Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 However, there is always the risk of sentencing someone innocent to death. I already pointed out there's also a risk an innocent person dying behind bars. I read since 1976 about 300 people who have been put to death by death penalty, have been found innocent based on new evidence, such as DNA. That's just too many. Source?I can't find that figure. Or are you talking about your country? (which i can't research since I don't know what it is) Heck, even one person executed innocently would be too much IMO! Imagine if that one person is you! I already posed the reverse question to you. Imagine if you were sentenced to life without parole and died behind bars. (BTW that type of emotional wheedling doesn't really work on me). The point is, at least with imprisonment you have a way to reverse it, in case new evidence is found. You can also do that with people on death row. And it has been done successfully many times. There is absolutely no chance for that when the person has already been executed. You can't help a person who has died behind bars either. A few years back I read the story of a man wrongly convicted of rape who died four years into his prison sentence of an asthma attack. As for closure. Not every family of a victim supports the death penalty. For example, in the recent case I mentioned in my opening post, the family of the victim asked people, politicians, certain media here to STOP using this case in support of the death penalty. So what? Many do support it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurari Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I do. Having worked in the court system, I am more convinced than ever that some people simply need to die. They are broken beyond repair and dangerous beyond reasonable doubt. There is little point in keeping them locked up and wasting tax dollars on their pointless lives. Rapists should definitely be on the list of the condemned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankStranger Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I'll never understand how some of ya'll can put this much faith in our "justice" system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I'll never understand how some of ya'll can put this much faith in our "justice" system. Especially when it's participants regularly like to point out it's not about justice at all, but procedure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I'll never understand how some of ya'll can put this much faith in our "justice" system. It's not a matter of faith in the system; I simply want murderers and abusers killed- end of case. I don't care if Uncle Sam does it above board, or if Fat Vinny does it under cover of night. I just want those sociopaths exterminated, one way or the other. So you also don't care if in this system of yours that clearly lacks much in the way quality assurance that a number of innocent people get caught in the meat grinder? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I'll never understand how some of ya'll can put this much faith in our "justice" system. It's not a matter of faith in the system; I simply want murderers and abusers killed- end of case. I don't care if Uncle Sam does it above board, or if Fat Vinny does it under cover of night. I just want those sociopaths exterminated, one way or the other. So you also don't care if in this system of yours that clearly lacks much in the way quality assurance that a number of innocent people get caught in the meat grinder? Not particularly, no. Accidents happen. Well, your personal values get no respect from me. Someone who values vengeance over justice has a few personal issues to work out in their lives IMHO. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 If I were a prosecutor, I'd want you on my jury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 After reading the latest posts I feel compelled to add a few more lines to it all... ...on the emotional "gut feelings" level I'd support the death penalty too, at least for pieces of shit like breivik or fritzl. However, rule of law and human rights and such are an all-or-nothing thing to me, at least to the rational me. Whenever we restrict the human rights of someone (or create any other exceptions) we need to exercise extreme caution lest we create an unneeded precedence that can later be abused. Also, we've had vengeance based "justice" systems for millennia in all kinds of cultures and societies. It tends to eradicate entire families and clans once you let it run wild. Let's keep in mind that no one is evil from his or her own point of view. And there's some other things involved that either don't occur to me right now or that I can't adequately express at the moment... some things keep running through my head but I can't really pin them down with words I could post here. Bottom line, I don't trust humanity as a whole to handle that subject as rationally as it needs to be handled. Just for the record, that does include me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hereticzero Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I am not a supporter of the Death Penalty. I believe it is used too much in the US to do any good and many times innocent people are convicted and murdered by the state, such as the death mill of Texas. I think locking someone up for life without parole is adequate enough for justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankStranger Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I'll never understand how some of ya'll can put this much faith in our "justice" system. It's not a matter of faith in the system; I simply want murderers and abusers killed- end of case. I don't care if Uncle Sam does it above board, or if Fat Vinny does it under cover of night. I just want those sociopaths exterminated, one way or the other. So you also don't care if in this system of yours that clearly lacks much in the way quality assurance that a number of innocent people get caught in the meat grinder? Not particularly, no. Accidents happen. Wow. That's disgusting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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