Getting Pulled Into Orthodox Christianity... Help!

[Paine]

Sweetie...marriages are a PARTNERSHIP WHERE YOU MUST SHARE GOALS.

 

I just don't see it happening. And THANK...DOG! that you are wise enough to be sorting these feelings out NOW!!!! How FABULOUS!!!!! You will save yourself SO MUCH UNTOLD MISERY.

 

Don't walk......Run. RUN AWAY.

 

And find a precious (and well hung ) freethinker with whom you can spend every single day for the rest of your life wholeheartedly agreeing on the third leg of a very important stool>>>> RELIGION, POLITICS, and MONEY

 

I promise...if you think you are going to change him, or WORSE, that you will grow to accept his superstitious bullshit WHEN CHILDREN ENTER THE PICTURE>>>>>YOU ARE IN FOR BIG>>BIG>>>HEARTACHE.

 

How lucky you are to have this clarity now. Good luck and WELCOME!

[pratt]

well, looks like this is a relationship with many strings attached.

 

he is a nice guy, but you MUST conform to his religious beliefs to be HIS WIFE.

 

so take your time and learn if it is all worth you for you to conform.

 

There is not much of a choice.

 

Will he change for you? Is he willing to give up his spirituality as he is asking you to give up your lack of?

 

I don't think it will be a 50/50 kind of power sharing arrangement in Orthodox Church family.

 

You should seriously consider the pros and cons and set up contingencies before jumping in further.

[cookiedough]

What you need to do first is read How to argue and win everytime. It can be found here.

 

http://www.amazon.co...e/dp/0312144776

 

Then you need to gain a very large understanding of christian theology, no christian orthodoxy but almost Calvinistic like christian theology. This will help you because it seems like OC is a lot of work, well one of the most core tenets of Christianity is the "god to man" system rather than the "man to god." That basically means God reaches out to man rather than man working to get to God, if you can show that work does not save you then you could potentially end his reasons to only marry in the OC. I am about to puke writing this but i think its your best bet. Dont try and disprove God to him but show him how the OC is unbiblical. A good place to start is to learn about the early christian church after the cannon is produced and look at the theological debates going on at the time, you will find that "working to God"(like in OC) is something that is usually considered heretical and un-christian like traditionally.

 

Thank you for the links (and for enduring the nausea of having to write that)! My understanding of Christian theology outside of Orthodoxy is veeeery sparse... it's always seemed so unbelievable that I've never even been curious enough to study it. I suppose now would be a good time to read up. From what I understand though, the OC has very deeply engrained beliefs about itself being the original/true church, and my boyfriend has had decades of studying theology so I doubt I could hold my own in any debates with him.

 

Just think how great the world would be if everyone stopped arguing about how right they are and just baked cookies instead. There would be so much happiness.

[cookiedough]

Well honestly then its a case of, imho, you and your mental and spiritual well being or his. Because if you too, can't at least not come to some reasonable compromise (what he is asking of you isn't reasonable) then you two aren't going to work out.

 

He is more or less saying in a real passive way, convert to my religion or we can't have a relationship. Your not going to be happy faking something you honestly can't believe in. You just can't do it and be healthy. Your going to end up resenting him for it and things will be way worse.

 

Yeah, this pretty much nails it. When we first got together, I think I overestimated how comfortable I would be in compromising and embracing his beliefs... love goggles and whatnot. I love him with all my heart, and he reassures me he respects whatever I choose to believe, but none of the future scenarios seem very attractive: either I convert and feel turmoil about being untrue to my beliefs, or he makes the sacrifice of marrying me and losing his good standing... in which case I'd feel insanely guilty for standing between him and his faith, and would only resent his religion more for trying to tear people apart. Bleh.

[cookiedough]

Valk0010 is right. You'll eventually come to resent yourself in time and your relationship will get trashed.

 

There's no avoiding this if any relationship's success is contingent upon you becoming someone you're not.

 

This is the singlemost problem I have with religion -- when its superstitious, mythical, make-believe bullshit takes precedence over real, live human beings.

 

SO MUCH YES to your last sentence. I couldn't have said it better.

 

It really sucks. If there's one thing I can't stand, it's arbitrary rules set thousands of years ago by people I never met. My boyfriend and I are so compatible in every other way, and this is by far the healthiest relationship I've ever had... so why do we create these laws that just complicate life without adding anything beneficial? I kinda think humans have a deep-seated masochistic streak where we just like to make things more difficult for ourselves...

[cookiedough]

While I have heard of relationships where one member of a couple is religious and another isn't and they get along fine, you need to think long and hard about where this could possibly go.

 

If it came to the point where it was only you that you had to change and he didn't, you would eventually come to resent yourself and him, as well. I have seen this happen in relationships. Selling yourself out is not worth it, and I came close to doing it one time, just so I could date this girl (who turned out to not even like me; and she hurt me, too, knowing that I really liked her). Afterwards, I decided that I would not change myself for anyone and if I had to wait years to find someone who would accept me for who I am, so be it.

 

Religion is a very hot-button issue in relationships, and it looks like the most important factor you need to look at is that if you're really being pressured to convert. And if you did convert, would you be forced to go all the time? You really need to consider these factors.

 

I recently went to my nephew's christening into the Catholic Church and the ceremony was nice and everyone in the church seemed nice. I felt this euphoric rush that came very few times when I was still Christian, but I had to remember all the pain that mostly came. You have to consider all the pain you could be forced to go through if you are forced to convert and constantly attend.

 

Welcome to ex-C!

 

Thank you so much for this. I'm sorry about what happened with that girl, but glad you eventually decided not to change yourself for anyone. I've had the same problem in the past with issues other than religion, and you're right -- any time you try changing yourself, it won't last long before it breeds resentment. It's never comfortable trying to force yourself into a mold you don't fit in. It gets harder to remember that when love is involved, though!

 

If I converted, I doubt my boyfriend would *force* me to go to church all the time, but I can imagine feeling really guilty if he was going and I was staying home, or if he was fasting during Lent and I wasn't, etc. So even if there was no pressure from his end, I would probably still end up doing things I didn't want to, just to avoid feeling guilty.

 

There really aren't many attractive solutions, it seems.

[midniterider]

First of all, I've been lurking here for the past month and you guys are awesome. I'm hoping someone out there, especially someone familiar with Eastern Orthodoxy, can help restore my sanity.

 

For the past year, I've been in a serious relationship with a very, very devout Orthodox Christian. It's the best relationship I've ever had and we've been talking marriage. The only problem is I would have to convert to Christianity in order to get married in the Orthodox church, or else he'd lose his good standing and not be able to receive the Eucharist, etc.

 

 

For most of my life, I've actively loathed Christianity. I can definitely embrace striving for a Christ-like life (treating other people well, acting from a place of love, being generous, etc.), but the rest of it just feels like an elaborate fairytale to me. I actually have a lot of beliefs that are just as unprovable as anything in Christianity, mostly about pre-birth consciousness and reincarnation, but those are due to some significant experiences I had when I was very young... and I tend to trust the things I perceive as experiences over what people in religious institutions tell me to blindly accept.

 

Mostly, I loathe the restrictions and rules given by organized religions, and unlike people who find comfort in that sort of structure, I feel deeply oppressed by it. I think there are many things about the world that we don't understand, but it annoys me when a religion claims exclusive rights over The Truth.

 

Throughout our relationship, I've felt like my boyfriend has been buttering me up for a conversion to Orthodoxy. Most of this is my fault, since I expressed a lot of enthusiasm in the beginning when I found out how different Orthodoxy is from the Protestantism I was familiar with. (For anyone not aware, Orthodox Christianity doesn't believe hell is a literal place, doesn't believe in salvation by faith alone, doesn't assume non-Christians suffer for eternity, and is generally more "introverted" with long traditions of meditation practices.) My boyfriend gave me tons of literature to read by the Desert Fathers and various saints, and some of it seemed quite palatable to me. I warned him that I don't think I could ever be Orthodox myself since I can't force myself to un-believe in reincarnation/preexistence. He's generally been very respectful about this, even though he obviously thinks I'm wrong. Even though he's never put any sort of ultimatum on me to convert, I just get the feeling that deep down, he's hoping I'll eventually "see the light" and come to Christ.

 

More recently, he's been bringing me to his church and having me talk to his spiritual Father. I feel like I'm getting so saturated with all their theology that I don't know up from down anymore. Both my boyfriend and his spiritual Father have been presenting Orthodoxy in a very rosy way -- giving me all the good bits first, I think, before going into the more difficult stuff, and presenting the Church as infallible because it's being led by the Holy Spirit. I've been told that my resistance to accepting Orthodoxy is natural because there are demonic forces trying to keep me away from the truth, and that they start "acting up" when people start considering Orthodoxy. (I've also been told that the experiences that led me to believe in reincarnation were also demonic in origin.)

 

I've been feeling really depressed and confused about everything lately. I have no desire to be religious. Previously, I was really happy with my spiritual life without integrating various traditions and rules. I feel like I'm being lured into becoming Orthodox by being told the experiences I've had that don't fit with the Church are invalid, and being shown all these great things about Christ, the great spirituality of the saints... I'm just so confused! I've been drowning in so many Orthodox books and writings that I've lost all perspective on everything I thought to be true.

 

I guess what I'd like to ask is if 1) anyone here de-converted from Orthodoxy, and if you could offer a more balanced view of its weaknesses/weird bits than I'm hearing from current Orthodox Christians, and 2) if there's any hope for this relationship working when only one person is Orthodox and the other is someone like me who will probably never convert.

 

I hate that religion has to drive love apart.

 

Any input at all would be deeply appreciated. I'm feeling so discombobulated!

 

I went into a marriage once knowing that my bride was looking forward to sharing something in which I had little interest. I half-heartedly agreed (LIED) that I also had that interest. Life sucked later on.

 

Right now, you know that you don't like organized religion. It will come up in the future as soon as the honeymoon phase wears off. I would tell prospective spouse in no uncertain terms that "I do not like organized religion and I shall never join a church." It isn't fair to either of you to half-heartedly agree (LIE) to be interested in something that probably will be a huge problem later on. Will he be happy with a wife who really isn't interested in his religion? Will you be happy with a husband who is trying to get you to convert? If both these questions can be answered yes honestly then go for it. Otherwise...

[midniterider]

Oh man, I love you all so much. You have no idea. This is like oxygen to me after a few months of suffocating...

 

He's told me that if he can't marry me, he doesn't want to marry anyone. So we're sort of in limbo now where I'm learning about Orthodoxy and we're waiting to see what happens. He told me that he's not worried about it because he trusts God will make everything turn out how it's supposed to.

 

"Suffocating" - consider that for a moment.

 

Is he willing to quit his church to marry you? I'd put that to the test. After all, he will be waking up to you everyday and not the church. Which is more important?

[midniterider]

Hey if he gets really antsy about this, tell him, that the problem is with him. He should decide, his faith or you. Why unless you find a good reason more then just pleasing him, to join, should he pressure you for his own hangups.

 

Part of the problem is he's SO convinced what he believes is true. He had some spiritual experiences when he was younger, after initially straying from the church, that confirmed to him in his mind that Orthodoxy is the one true religion. So from his perspective, he has no hangups; he's just following the most direct path to God. He is very respectful of letting other people believe what they want and not giving them a hard time about it, but at the end of the day, his perspective is 100% fixed.

Well honestly then its a case of, imho, you and your mental and spiritual well being or his. Because if you too, can't at least not come to some reasonable compromise (what he is asking of you isn't reasonable) then you two aren't going to work out.

 

He is more or less saying in a real passive way, convert to my religion or we can't have a relationship. Your not going to be happy faking something you honestly can't believe in. You just can't do it and be healthy. Your going to end up resenting him for it and things will be way worse.

 

True. Ask the fakers here how enjoyable it is. :-)

[centauri]

Hey if he gets really antsy about this, tell him, that the problem is with him. He should decide, his faith or you. Why unless you find a good reason more then just pleasing him, to join, should he pressure you for his own hangups.

 

Part of the problem is he's SO convinced what he believes is true. He had some spiritual experiences when he was younger, after initially straying from the church, that confirmed to him in his mind that Orthodoxy is the one true religion. So from his perspective, he has no hangups; he's just following the most direct path to God. He is very respectful of letting other people believe what they want and not giving them a hard time about it, but at the end of the day, his perspective is 100% fixed.

This isn't going to be much help but you did write that any input is appreciated.

Just an observation...if he's that convinced then this type of issue is never going to go away.

You might be able to paper over it by pretending for the sake of harmony, but somewhere down the line his faith is going to give you another ultimatum and demand another concession.

When that happens, it may open up an even bigger can of worms, with more far reaching consequences.

Once you set the precedent by conceding, it will be expected of you to do it again.

Remember, when it comes to spiritual matters, you're the one wrestling with demons and he's the one with truth on his side.

That seems like a recipe for serious trouble in your relationship, maybe not right away but I think it's a ticking time bomb.

[midniterider]

He is very respectful of letting other people believe what they want and not giving them a hard time about it, but at the end of the day, his perspective is 100% fixed.

 

(for instance, you fast every Wednesday and Friday of your life, no sex on Wednesday, Friday, Saturday, or Sunday; 40 days of fasting and abstinence before Lent, as well as more fasting for numerous weeks throughout the year... etc.).

 

 

Fixed perspective. Scary.

 

So boyfriend gets no cookiedough on Wed, Fri, Sat and Sun.... (sorry , thought that was funny). Aren't religions fun?! They are just so full of what you AREN'T allowed to to do, say or think...a prison for your mind. And they have the audacity to say, "The truth will set you free!!" I would never join a church again (ex-fundie).

[TallMike]

It's so easy for us to dispense advice because we're not emotionally involved. Still, I hope what you've found here has been helpful!

 

I hate that religion has to drive love apart.

 

Too true. From the comments above, sounds like this forum is no stranger to this evil. My heart aches for you because I've been in a similar situation a couple times. I'll talk about one.

 

Five years ago, when I was still a Christian (non-denom), I met this amazing girl who was a Pentecostal. At the time I wasn't sure what I thought of that denomination, so as we started dating I started taking a closer look at it, meeting with people from her church, reading books she recommended, etc. I joined a small group, met some incredible people of astounding faith, and prayed earnestly to receive the gift of speaking in tongues, and for God to show me what was true.

 

After about six months of this, I realized it'd be irresponsible to go forward without being honestly OK with her church. After a lot of reading and wrestling and misery, finally I decided that their theology wasn't an accurate depiction of what was in the Bible. (the speaking-in-tongues-for-everyone thing is a hilariously ironic misinterpretation of 1 Cor 12-14. But most of it just smelled really funny and when I tried to grasp at it in conversations, it slipped through my fingers like oil)

 

So we broke up. What made it suck the most was that we were both Christians. I have to this day never cried so hard in my life. But this is important: we broke up not just because we believed different things, but because at the heart of it, we were different people in a really important way; otherwise, we couldn't have had such different beliefs. For instance, in response to my questions, she'd said a few times, "the Holy Spirit told me it was true." Those words tied my stomach in knots even while I was still a Christian.

 

I loathe the restrictions and rules given by organized religions, and unlike people who find comfort in that sort of structure, I feel deeply oppressed by it. I think there are many things about the world that we don't understand, but it annoys me when a religion claims exclusive rights over The Truth.

 

Along these lines, what do you know about the kind of person your boyfriend is? Is he someone who can find comfort in that sort of structure? Will he instinctively impose that structure on your marriage?

 

The only sane way forward I can see is if you two go in with both eyes open. Sit down with a priest/pastor/thing and hash out, in detail, what a mixed marriage could look like. I'm talking about things like whether you go to services, what your participation in the church looks like, how you make decisions as a couple, what happens when you disagree, where your kids go to school and how they're raised (buckle your safety belt!)... you know, the fun stuff. If you don't think about this stuff now, you'll be blindsided by it later.

 

Of those who deconverted while married to a devout believer, I wonder what they'd say about being in a mixed marriage, and whether it's worth it. (here's one thread, but there are tons of others: http://www.ex-christ...e-its-my-fault/)

 

I haven't read David Copperfield, but another close we-mightve-dated-if-I-were-still-a-Christian friend quoted this to me once: "There can be no disparity in marriage like unsuitability of mind and purpose."