Pre Fall Of Satan, Pre Creation And Post Creation Evil Show That The Bible God Is Self Refuting. (Comments Criticism, Please!)

[Guest Valk0010]

If god is sovereign(as in he doesn't have to do anything he doesn't want to do) he can't be both good and be the creator of any evil whatsoever. How I know this to be true is the following. Even if you say that the concept of evil existed even before the fall of satan that does not give god the pass on this issue. There is a reason why that is.

 

A: Pre-creation evil would have been close to zero because of the inability of evil actions to be done. The idea of say, murder in heaven is nonsensical. Other evil actions like rape precreation are nonsense as well due to lack of opportunity. The devil raping or murdering a angel would be impossible.

 

B: Post creation evil immediately becomes greater and a lot of evil actions then become possible.

 

How this relates to god is, the devil did not create the world. So god created more evil by allowing the world to be created.

 

Now how does this relate to the existence and sovereignty of god? It relates because irregardless of your views about god's abilities to destroy evil, even though he hates it, if he is good at all then he would stop everything he possibly can that is evil from occurring. The stopping of such a thing would have been not creating the world. I say this is because pre creation evil is less the post creation evil.

 

This means three things have to be carrying for one to be a christian.

 

A: God is sovereign

B:God is good

C:God helped to make evil more powerful.

 

Notice how these three things are in contradiction.

 

If say your a human and your a good person, you stop as much evil as you can from occuring. That is just part of what it means to be good. God if he is good shouldn't act any different in this area. Its already biblically known that god didn't have to create the world. Prove of this is that we were created for his pleasure, and the other option is that god had no choice but to create us, which means he can't be a god because even if he limits his omnipotence god, to be god that god would still have to be capable of choice. He would have choice in creating us in this case, cause satan doesn't have that power to do so and there is no requirement to say what god could not have created to store the devil for eternity. And even if he had no choice he becomes no different then the devil for not telling us that he had no choice. And also most christians believe the god is incapable of error. If he had no choice then if he is good, he made a error for not telling us. It sets a poor moral example regardless. He is also no different then from what he hates, which is nonsensical if the bible god exists. A god is contradictory can't exist and claim themselves perfect and unchanging. So then the god of the bible becomes disproven.

 

If evil did exist pre creation or even pre satan then even if the fall of satan was out of his control, then the most logical conclusion is god is both sovereign and good and he didn't created the world. That obviously has not happened. So therefore the god of the bible can't exist because his nature makes our existence impossible. And if this isn't the best of all possible worlds then that god is no different the devil. If it is, then the same criticism still applies. The bible becomings logically inconsistent and therefore the most logical conclusion is that the god of the bible is nonexistent.

 

If the devil as some christians say doesn't exist then this still a problem because a being that is actually good would avoid evil. And if he is the creator of evil, then the same criticism applies. A good god couldn't be the creator of any evil. If he has no control over the world and his reality then there is no reason to call him sovereign or omnipotent at all. And its yet to been proven that, he had no choice in creating us. And if he didn't have one, he couldn't exist because he isn't sovereign and isn't perfect. Both traits needed to believe in the Christian concept of god. If he had a choice, then the criticisms I have made here still apply.

 

If we are talking about judaism, the same problem applies. He can't be good and the creator of any evil. And if he is not good then he contradicts his law by creating more possibilities of breaking his law. And if his laws for us, are not the laws, then we could never know anything about the character of god. The bible says we can. If the bible is fundamentally flawed, then there is no reason to believe the christian god exists.

 

ETA:Fixing grammer.

[mcdaddy]

Christianity is bullshit.

 

Welcome to the party Valk!

 

[Guest Valk0010]

Christianity is bullshit.

 

Welcome to the party Valk!

 

I know I am just creating logic puzzles for myself using religion as ideas for them.

[mcdaddy]

I do the same thing bud, only I do it in my head. I'm just messin with ya.

[Spectrox]

Yes Valk. Logic sucks if you're a Christian. The simplest fallacy I can think of is possibly the one where God is supposed to have ultimate justice and ultimate mercy (the suspension of justice) at the same time. Any suspension of justice is not justice. Christians might get round that dilemma by saying ultimate justice v ultimate love (wanting the best for someone but if they've behaved badly then punishment is in their best long-term interests).

 

Then of course there's the classic - if God is all-powerful, can he create a rock that is too big for him to lift?

 

My particular favourite is shooting down Xians who claim that they have total faith in God and trust God with no doubt whatsoever. If faith is belief in God without evidence and trust is belief in God with some evidence, this sets up a self-contradiction! You can't have no evidence and some evidence for something at the same time!

 

It's all word games at the end of the day.

 

God is an enigma within an anomaly and probably doesn't exist.

[Guest Valk0010]

meant to say

 

And if he is good then he contradicts his law by creating more possibilities of breaking his law.

 

And a not good god would require moral absurdity. If god is not good, then murdering would be morally permissible. We know that is absurd, so therefore we have to say that the god of the bible doesn't exist.

[Guest Valk0010]

I need to work on editing aye.

[midniterider]

 

 

Then of course there's the classic - if God is all-powerful, can he create a rock that is too big for him to lift?

 

 

I MUST REMEMBER THIS. lol.

[roadrunner]

if satan was already fallen at the time adam and eve were in the garden where did his third of angels come from?

 

If sin enters the world at the garden through satans temptation there must have already been sin since satan was fallen at this point?

 

"eternity past" is an oxymoron, right?

 

do "god's promises" mean there is no free will for him to change his mind?

 

I can come up with a zillion of these since Im no longer a believer.

[roadrunner]

If god is sovereign(as in he doesn't have to do anything he doesn't want to do) he can't be both good and be the creator of any evil whatsoever. How I know this to be true is the following. Even if you say that the concept of evil existed even .............................

 

Critique: First off he's god he can do whatever he wants. Secondly, you have to remember that god is good and evil is the absence of good. So when he is removed, left up to man and apart from god, things get nasty because we are fallen (born into sin) and apart from god there can be no good. So evil wasn't created BY god its a result of his rejection. Third, god is long suffering and just. Salvation is important to the point that a murderer that repents and can enter but a good person who is not a believer can't enter heaven. we were created by god for his glory so to reject him is to not live up to your purpose and you must be damned. We haave a higher purpose so to live in away that you are fulfilling YOUR supposed purpose is to miss the big picture. Since he is longsuffering he hurts when you reject him and to hurt the creator of the universe is bad. So IT IS just that people who reject him be sent to hell.

 

yes this sounds silly but its what I used to think as a fundamental, southern baptist.

[Guest Valk0010]

If god is sovereign(as in he doesn't have to do anything he doesn't want to do) he can't be both good and be the creator of any evil whatsoever. How I know this to be true is the following. Even if you say that the concept of evil existed even .............................

 

Critique: First off he's god he can do whatever he wants. Secondly, you have to remember that god is good and evil is the absence of good. So when he is removed, left up to man and apart from god, things get nasty because we are fallen (born into sin) and apart from god there can be no good. So evil wasn't created BY god its a result of his rejection. Third, god is long suffering and just. Salvation is important to the point that a murderer that repents and can enter but a good person who is not a believer can't enter heaven. we were created by god for his glory so to reject him is to not live up to your purpose and you must be damned. We haave a higher purpose so to live in away that you are fulfilling YOUR supposed purpose is to miss the big picture. Since he is longsuffering he hurts when you reject him and to hurt the creator of the universe is bad. So IT IS just that people who reject him be sent to hell.

 

yes this sounds silly but its what I used to think as a fundamental, southern baptist.

I would have said, hey than, don't create planet earth.

 

In fact most of my arguments here, have all related to god creating the earth, not his actions while its already here.

[Guest Valk0010]

if satan was already fallen at the time adam and eve were in the garden where did his third of angels come from?

 

If sin enters the world at the garden through satans temptation there must have already been sin since satan was fallen at this point?

 

"eternity past" is an oxymoron, right?

 

do "god's promises" mean there is no free will for him to change his mind?

 

I can come up with a zillion of these since Im no longer a believer.

Prior commitment and a inability to change from that commitment is not the same as being able to decide to do that prior commitment I think.

 

Well, by eternity past I mean, the realm of god, pre creation. The point is, that if god was good, sin existing at pre creation would prevent the creation of the world.

 

I dunno, maybe I am flirting with, the bible is the big book of multiple choice problem.

[roadrunner]

we live in the church age so god's intervention is debatable. some denominations believe that god no longer will intervene until christ comes back. also it is becoming accepted now that since god is outside of space and time his perception of future events is not like ours. I do understand eternity past and we only have bits of what went on then.

 

also the bible isn't multiple choice.....its open ended.

 

Quoting seth andrews, this is how you have to bend and flex to make a square peg fit into a round hole.

[Guest Valk0010]

we live in the church age so god's intervention is debatable. some denominations believe that god no longer will intervene until christ comes back. also it is becoming accepted now that since god is outside of space and time his perception of future events is not like ours. I do understand eternity past and we only have bits of what went on then.

 

also the bible isn't multiple choice.....its open ended.

 

Quoting seth andrews, this is how you have to bend and flex to make a square peg fit into a round hole.

Well sure, but this is addressing pre creation actions, his idea of morality, and right and wrong. I am not sure what his interference would have anything to do with it. And supposedly the bible is the reflection of him, so I am not sure how what your saying here applies.

[roadrunner]

we live in the church age so god's intervention is debatable. some denominations believe that god no longer will intervene until christ comes back. also it is becoming accepted now that since god is outside of space and time his perception of future events is not like ours. I do understand eternity past and we only have bits of what went on then.

 

also the bible isn't multiple choice.....its open ended.

 

Quoting seth andrews, this is how you have to bend and flex to make a square peg fit into a round hole.

Well sure, but this is addressing pre creation actions, his idea of morality, and right and wrong. I am not sure what his interference would have anything to do with it. And supposedly the bible is the reflection of him, so I am not sure how what your saying here applies.

 

it slowly diverges from the bible to speculation. but the speculation is based off of hints of the character of god fron what the bible tells us. also you are reading this objectively and the bible not for the non believer .as a believer you ill know the character of god from his manifestation in you so the believer does not walk away from the scripture with the same interpretation as a non believer.

[Guest Valk0010]

we live in the church age so god's intervention is debatable. some denominations believe that god no longer will intervene until christ comes back. also it is becoming accepted now that since god is outside of space and time his perception of future events is not like ours. I do understand eternity past and we only have bits of what went on then.

 

also the bible isn't multiple choice.....its open ended.

 

Quoting seth andrews, this is how you have to bend and flex to make a square peg fit into a round hole.

Well sure, but this is addressing pre creation actions, his idea of morality, and right and wrong. I am not sure what his interference would have anything to do with it. And supposedly the bible is the reflection of him, so I am not sure how what your saying here applies.

 

it slowly diverges from the bible to speculation. but the speculation is based off of hints of the character of god fron what the bible tells us. also you are reading this objectively and the bible not for the non believer .as a believer you ill know the character of god from his manifestation in you so the believer does not walk away from the scripture with the same interpretation as a non believer.

I think you have gotten to a great point, and its why i am thinking of dropping this arguement even though I believe it works.

 

I am extrapolating some, and that can border on speculation. If I say, god has autonomy. The believer will automatically scream, god doesn't have free will.

 

I am going to try it with bible verses to see what you think, because I may just in a attempt to be fair, be leaving way to damn many holes for them to wiggle in.

 

I think it would still be safe to say, that the god who proclaims he hates evil(sin, sinner). That is pretty well biblical based.

 

He also does what he wants. http://www.crossroad.to/HisWord/verses/topics/will.htm

 

God is also good http://bible.cc/psalms/100-5.htm http://net.bible.org/#!bible/Psalms%20107:1

 

He also knows what goodness is (Matthew 19:16-17).

 

If that is the case, then, he has the power to do how he wants. And if he doesn't want to, then he either can't or won't.

 

If he can't stop evil, then, if he is actually capable of doing what he pleases and is good, he should prevent evil.

 

Creation increased the evil in the world or created it depending on how you want to look at it.

 

God is omniscient and proclaims to be greater then man ala job.

 

So therefore, he should be aware of the actions he does and aware of the probability and the possibility of disaster in the garden of eden.

 

Satan is also more powerful then humans.

 

So we were set up into a situation we could not have succeeded in.

 

Thus god had to be responsible for us being able to create and or spread evil.

 

This would countradict his nature since, he is good.

 

---------------------------------------------------------

 

What the hell am I thinking? This works, but a believer won't get it. Does the argument just plain suck or am I being just really freaking rational about something that isn't rational.

[roadrunner]

you are thinking. its a great argument but I think its only effective for people on the fence or unbelievers. true believers do not let rational thought change their opinion

 

[roadrunner]

PS remember I'm just giving you the arguments that I would have said as a Xi'an. I completely agree with you. and you never know where someone is in their deconversion so keep it handy. we just made the argument a little bit sharper by discussing it.

[Guest Valk0010]

PS remember I'm just giving you the arguments that I would have said as a Xi'an. I completely agree with you. and you never know where someone is in their deconversion so keep it handy. we just made the argument a little bit sharper by discussing it.

Yeah, I will.

 

This is just a part of a larger growing trend of me, just not thinking like a believer at all. Its just a total 180 mindset.

 

Thanks for the help, sometimes when you got clarity its hard to remember confusion.

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

Valk, it all makes sense, you just don't want to believe because you're mad at YHWH.

 

Don't use logic, don't think about it, just believe, you're thinking and use of logic is the devil trying to put evil ideas into your head.

[Thumbelina]

there must have already been sin ...

 

 

Yup, sin began in heaven. Some speculate that Jesus was about to create this planet and humans which stirred up Satan's ENVY. A silly created being with derived life wanted to create things ex nihilo and he envied Jesus royally and so started his rebellion.

[bornagainathiest]

Oh shuggles!

 

It's back!

 

[highrishman]

Recently when discussing the bible and expressing my doubts, I usually begin with the beginning. Every chrisitian is familiar with the part, so its a good place to begin.

 

If God, who is a supremely perfect being, created the angels, and then gave them free will, why would they turn away? For starters, God is supposed to be a supremely perfect and intelligent being. Wouldnt he have forseen the rebellion? And the angels, who were also supposed to be incredibly intelligent, would they really have been foolish enough to turn against their creator? Supposedly there is no sinning in heaven. Wouldn't Lucifer have sinned by turning away from God?

 

Its scary how many questions turn up within the first few chapters. Moving to Adam and Eve. Would God have really planted the tree of knowledge in the garden of eden? He had an entirely fresh earth, he couldve put it anywhere. Why in the garden, where adam and eve had temptation to get it? Not to mention, how could satan have gotten to earth and tempted the only two living humans without his knowledge? What, was God off fishing and not paying attention? God is supposedly perfect, meaning he doesnt have need of entertainment, hes never hungry. i mean, does he just go off to heaven and watch tv a while? If youre God, what keeps you occupied?

[Thumbelina]

Recently when discussing the bible and expressing my doubts, I usually begin with the beginning. Every chrisitian is familiar with the part, so its a good place to begin.

 

If God, who is a supremely perfect being, created the angels, and then gave them free will, why would they turn away?

 

 

If sin can be explained then it can be excused. I think you echo the sentiments that sin is POINTLESS and the beings that started it were STUPID and CRAZY.

 

 

 

For starters, God is supposed to be a supremely perfect and intelligent being. Wouldnt he have forseen the rebellion?

 

Of course he foresaw it, He is omniscient.

 

 

And the angels, who were also supposed to be incredibly intelligent, would they really have been foolish enough to turn against their creator?

 

 

 

Yes, they were that foolish, Satan spread his trade and his tail drew 1/3 of the angels. He was a serious brown noser. He peddled his lies and is still doing it today: 'Created beings can be good without God or they are God, we don't need God, Do what thou wilt, YOLO (You Only Live Once), God does not exist' (have you ever had a person who envies or fears you and who pretends that you don't exist?

 

 

 

Supposedly there is no sinning in heaven. Wouldn't Lucifer have sinned by turning away from God?

 

 

 

Who said that there was no sinning in heaven? Our sins are recorded in heaven and sin (the transgression of God's Law) did begin there so pristine heaven was tainted because God permitted freedom of CHOICE. So yes, sin began in heaven! Where there is no choice there is no love. God is love so He gave created beings the choice not to love and worship Him. God does not believe in shotgun weddings (the church is His bride).

 

 

Its scary how many questions turn up within the first few chapters. Moving to Adam and Eve. Would God have really planted the tree of knowledge in the garden of eden?

 

 

Yup! That was His way of giving them a choice. Do they want to live forever with Him or do they want to die, to go back to nothingness and not live forever?

[Guest Valk0010]

Well, i still see, my general point even if not argued very well, still left unchallenged. If god despised sin and evil so bad, then if that god was logical he would prevent any opportunity for it to pop up. The god of the bible didn't, he loved his own need for, companionship more then he hated sin. That, as far as the bible god goes, sounds to me, self contradictory particularly considering how supposedly he can't tolerate the presence of sin even thought he allowed Satan to walk into heaven and make a bet with him.