Pre Fall Of Satan, Pre Creation And Post Creation Evil Show That The Bible God Is Self Refuting. (Comments Criticism, Please!)

[centauri]

highrishman:

And the angels, who were also supposed to be incredibly intelligent, would they really have been foolish enough to turn against their creator?

 

Yes, they were that foolish, Satan spread his trade and his tail drew 1/3 of the angels. He was a serious brown noser.

There is nothing in the Hebrew scriptures that says this.

Your claim is based on Christian mythology.

The Old Testament character Satan is God's servant who never disobeys a command from God.

 

Who said that there was no sinning in heaven? Our sins are recorded in heaven and sin (the transgression of God's Law) did begin there so pristine heaven was tainted because God permitted freedom of CHOICE. So yes, sin began in heaven! Where there is no choice there is no love. God is love so He gave created beings the choice not to love and worship Him.

God's works are supposed to be perfect.

As soon as a perfect being sins, it shows that it wasn't made perfect in the first place.

If you're going to claim choice causes sin, then sinning isn't imperfection.

 

God does not believe in shotgun weddings (the church is His bride).

He just believes in shotgun worship, where failure to comply results in eternal damnation.

That's hillbilly love at its best.

[Thumbelina]

Well, i still see, my general point even if not argued very well, still left unchallenged. If god despised sin and evil so bad, then if that god was logical he would prevent any opportunity for it to pop up. The god of the bible didn't, he loved his own need for, companionship more then he hated sin. That, as far as the bible god goes, sounds to me, self contradictory particularly considering how supposedly he can't tolerate the presence of sin even thought he allowed Satan to walk into heaven and make a bet with him.

 

You are saying that you would rather not exist? Sin started because God gave created beings the ability to use their will. Sin could have started with any one of us or with any other created being. God has NO fear so why would He let sin stop Him from creating? I'm glad for the opportunity to live forever therefore I'm glad God did not wuss out because he knew Adam and Eve would follow Satan's in his pointless rebellion. God creates beautiful creatures and any being has the potential to get corrupted by their beauty and delude themself into believing they can usurp God. The love of display tends to lead people to the sin of presumption and that happened to Lucifer and it could have happened to any created being. This trial of sin will eventually cause sin to be abhorred and sin will never ever ever arise again. God wanted/wants His creatures to understand, to know intellectually why sin cannot be tolerated and that His rules can be obeyed, His discourse with Satan was a part of that. Satan is a beast but an all powerful God who is able to resurrect people is not worried about him in the least. Job did not give up on God so why are skeptics always criticizing Him?

[Thumbelina]

 

 

Darlin'! You know I miss you but not your craziness. I hope you get insight into these things and soon. I still don't want Luci' to get you.

[centauri]

 

 

Darlin'! You know I miss you but not your craziness. I hope you get insight into these things and soon. I still don't want Luci' to get you.

And it's always a delight to have a believer visit the forum and impart divine truth to all the skeptics.

I especially enjoy being smeared as one who engages in "craziness".

For the sake of lurkers, please explain why my initial response to your answers on Satan and sin represents "craziness".

Please explain why pointing out things that conflict with your version of "truth" is misguided and shows a lack of insight on my part.

[TheBluegrassSkeptic]

I was in a discussion about this the other day, but the original question asked why didn't god create an environment for things to exist without having to feed upon one another. Of course, all the religious on the thread responded,"Why don't you tell us what a fair system would have been?" Which really didn't do anything to add to the discussion. One person did pipe up that because of The Fall, that is why we now have the self sustaining system we have, and that prior to the event, everything was vegan. Essentially, he claims that this is still a fantastic system, and all because of The Fall, God at least still gave us an environment to be sustained upon abundantly.

 

Well, I tackled the whole why-don't-you-tell-us-what-a-fair-system-would-have-been side step.

 

Here's my thing. First of all, the system was already perfect prior to The Fall, thus the system was fair and sustainable. God decided to allow sin to be introduced into his Eden. It wasn't just the serpent. It was that conspicuous Tree of Knowledge He insisted on putting there to begin with. If a snake could convince these to dipshits to eat it, I'm sure walking by it would have had the same effect after awhile. So, why put that tree in there? Well, like many xtians have said, God wanted to give us a choice. That immediately denotes temptation on God's part being purposely placed in His garden. Now, finally, why would a deity, demand free choice of love? He is still extorting acceptance through sentence of pain and suffering? I'll tell you why.

 

Perfection in Eden made God unnecessary. Period.

 

If He never put the tree in there, he would have not been needed. It has nothing to do with freewill to love. This place was so perfect and self-sustained, God was cancelled out.

 

For me, Eden alone refutes God due to his desire to be needed. He never had to put temptation in that Garden to be needed. He could have made himself a part of that garden and interacted directly, but he opted for a dramatic soap opera.

[Thumbelina]

 

 

Darlin'! You know I miss you but not your craziness. I hope you get insight into these things and soon. I still don't want Luci' to get you.

And it's always a delight to have a believer visit the forum and impart divine truth to all the skeptics.

I especially enjoy being smeared as one who engages in "craziness".

For the sake of lurkers, please explain why my initial response to your answers on Satan and sin represents "craziness".

Please explain why pointing out things that conflict with your version of "truth" is misguided and shows a lack of insight on my part.

 

Because all you tend to do is make God out to be malevolent so you can delude yourself into believing he may not exist, ya chicken ya! (to lurkers, I bug Centauri and he's a good sport about it too). There's none so blind as those who do not wish to see. You are able to see a loving God if you WANT to.

[Thumbelina]

I was in a discussion about this the other day, but the original question asked why didn't god create an environment for things to exist without having to feed upon one another. Of course, all the religious on the thread responded,"Why don't you tell us what a fair system would have been?" Which really didn't do anything to add to the discussion. One person did pipe up that because of The Fall, that is why we now have the self sustaining system we have, and that prior to the event, everything was vegan. Essentially, he claims that this is still a fantastic system, and all because of The Fall, God at least still gave us an environment to be sustained upon abundantly.

Well, I tackled the whole why-don't-you-tell-us-what-a-fair-system-would-have-been side step.

Here's my thing. First of all, the system was already perfect prior to The Fall, thus the system was fair and sustainable. God decided to allow sin to be introduced into his Eden. It wasn't just the serpent. It was that conspicuous Tree of Knowledge He insisted on putting there to begin with. If a snake could convince these to dipshits to eat it, I'm sure walking by it would have had the same effect after awhile. So, why put that tree in there? Well, like many xtians have said, God wanted to give us a choice. That immediately denotes temptation on God's part being purposely placed in His garden. Now, finally, why would a deity, demand free choice of love? He is still extorting acceptance through sentence of pain and suffering? I'll tell you why.

Perfection in Eden made God unnecessary. Period.

If He never put the tree in there, he would have not been needed. It has nothing to do with freewill to love. This place was so perfect and self-sustained, God was cancelled out.

For me, Eden alone refutes God due to his desire to be needed. He never had to put temptation in that Garden to be needed. He could have made himself a part of that garden and interacted directly, but he opted for a dramatic soap opera.

 

 

God does not tempt beings to do sin. God tests beings, He says obey Him (not to be a pain but because He knows what is right) and if one doesn't then one faces the consequences.

 

Why would a parent tell their children to respect them and to love their siblings? It's for peace's sake, is it not? And where there is peace love and like reigns. What happens to children whose parents never let them be accountable for their bad actions? Also, why do parents sit down and explain rules to children who are old enough to understand? Is it because they want them to understand that it's for their own emotional and possibly physical safety?

 

What was the purpose of the tree of life? According to the bible who caused/causes the sun to shine? Who gives each human the breath of life everyday? Who gives them strength?

 

 

What do you think was the purpose of the tree of life?

About the tree of knowledge, it had no magical qualities or anything like that, it was used to show that Adam and Eve's bad thoughts will lead to bad actions. God understood this but sin was new and not understood by creatures.

 

 

 

God is needed because He does not have derived life but created beings do!

[TheBluegrassSkeptic]

I was in a discussion about this the other day, but the original question asked why didn't god create an environment for things to exist without having to feed upon one another. Of course, all the religious on the thread responded,"Why don't you tell us what a fair system would have been?" Which really didn't do anything to add to the discussion. One person did pipe up that because of The Fall, that is why we now have the self sustaining system we have, and that prior to the event, everything was vegan. Essentially, he claims that this is still a fantastic system, and all because of The Fall, God at least still gave us an environment to be sustained upon abundantly.

Well, I tackled the whole why-don't-you-tell-us-what-a-fair-system-would-have-been side step.

Here's my thing. First of all, the system was already perfect prior to The Fall, thus the system was fair and sustainable. God decided to allow sin to be introduced into his Eden. It wasn't just the serpent. It was that conspicuous Tree of Knowledge He insisted on putting there to begin with. If a snake could convince these to dipshits to eat it, I'm sure walking by it would have had the same effect after awhile. So, why put that tree in there? Well, like many xtians have said, God wanted to give us a choice. That immediately denotes temptation on God's part being purposely placed in His garden. Now, finally, why would a deity, demand free choice of love? He is still extorting acceptance through sentence of pain and suffering? I'll tell you why.

Perfection in Eden made God unnecessary. Period.

If He never put the tree in there, he would have not been needed. It has nothing to do with freewill to love. This place was so perfect and self-sustained, God was cancelled out.

For me, Eden alone refutes God due to his desire to be needed. He never had to put temptation in that Garden to be needed. He could have made himself a part of that garden and interacted directly, but he opted for a dramatic soap opera.

 

 

God does not tempt beings to do sin. God tests beings, He says obey Him (not to be a pain but because He knows what is right) and if one doesn't then one faces the consequences.

 

Why would a parent tell their children to respect them and to love their siblings? It's for peace's sake, is it not? And where there is peace love and like reigns. What happens to children whose parents never let them be accountable for their bad actions? Also, why do parents sit down and explain rules to children who are old enough to understand? Is it because they want them to understand that it's for their own emotional and possibly physical safety?

 

What was the purpose of the tree of life? According to the bible who caused the sun to shine? Who gives each human the breath of life everyday? Who gives them strength?

 

 

What do you think was the purpose of the tree of life?

 

 

 

God is needed because He does not have derived life but created beings do!

OMFG I'm sorry, but I appreciate the spontaneous laugh I so enjoy from this site.

 

You literally believe that God's TESTING of beings isn't temptation. That's fucking hilarious! I think I don't even need to go there.

 

That's gonna make a GREAT bumpersticker! LMAO

 

Okay, okay. I'm done with that...**still laughing, sorry**

 

What do you think was the purpose of the tree of life?

 

 

Ummm, I wasn't speaking on the tree of life...unless that is just one of a gazillion names it has been translated into. Last I checked, my post referred to knowledge of good and evil...THAT tree....which...I thought...gave... ummm KNOWLEDGE....

 

Your purple argument is confusing. Adam and Eve weren't going to rebel...UNLESS they ate from that tree... so technically, God didn't have to give freewill in His garden to keep the peace...that was already guaran-damn-teed to begin with. He put the tree there to force a choice that really didn't have to be forced...because, everything was already perfect....thus the only need for said choice was to feel NEEDED.

[mymistake]

If God, who is a supremely perfect being, created the angels, and then gave them free will, why would they turn away? For starters, God is supposed to be a supremely perfect and intelligent being. Wouldnt he have forseen the rebellion? And the angels, who were also supposed to be incredibly intelligent, would they really have been foolish enough to turn against their creator? Supposedly there is no sinning in heaven. Wouldn't Lucifer have sinned by turning away from God?

 

Comic books and Kung Fu films have villains with far more depth and character than Christian theology. The demons supposedly would have to know it would be a no-win situation before they began but they charged strait in anyway and never once changed their mind? There is no way to win against an all powerful being. Even Lex Luther has a chance if he can get ahold of Kryptonite. But demons just act like mindless rebellion machines . . . because that is what Christian theology needed.

[Thumbelina]

I was in a discussion about this the other day, but the original question asked why didn't god create an environment for things to exist without having to feed upon one another. Of course, all the religious on the thread responded,"Why don't you tell us what a fair system would have been?" Which really didn't do anything to add to the discussion. One person did pipe up that because of The Fall, that is why we now have the self sustaining system we have, and that prior to the event, everything was vegan. Essentially, he claims that this is still a fantastic system, and all because of The Fall, God at least still gave us an environment to be sustained upon abundantly.

Well, I tackled the whole why-don't-you-tell-us-what-a-fair-system-would-have-been side step.

Here's my thing. First of all, the system was already perfect prior to The Fall, thus the system was fair and sustainable. God decided to allow sin to be introduced into his Eden. It wasn't just the serpent. It was that conspicuous Tree of Knowledge He insisted on putting there to begin with. If a snake could convince these to dipshits to eat it, I'm sure walking by it would have had the same effect after awhile. So, why put that tree in there? Well, like many xtians have said, God wanted to give us a choice. That immediately denotes temptation on God's part being purposely placed in His garden. Now, finally, why would a deity, demand free choice of love? He is still extorting acceptance through sentence of pain and suffering? I'll tell you why.

Perfection in Eden made God unnecessary. Period.

If He never put the tree in there, he would have not been needed. It has nothing to do with freewill to love. This place was so perfect and self-sustained, God was cancelled out.

For me, Eden alone refutes God due to his desire to be needed. He never had to put temptation in that Garden to be needed. He could have made himself a part of that garden and interacted directly, but he opted for a dramatic soap opera.

 

 

God does not tempt beings to do sin. God tests beings, He says obey Him (not to be a pain but because He knows what is right) and if one doesn't then one faces the consequences.

 

Why would a parent tell their children to respect them and to love their siblings? It's for peace's sake, is it not? And where there is peace love and like reigns. What happens to children whose parents never let them be accountable for their bad actions? Also, why do parents sit down and explain rules to children who are old enough to understand? Is it because they want them to understand that it's for their own emotional and possibly physical safety?

 

What was the purpose of the tree of life? According to the bible who caused the sun to shine? Who gives each human the breath of life everyday? Who gives them strength?

 

 

What do you think was the purpose of the tree of life?

 

 

 

God is needed because He does not have derived life but created beings do!

OMFG I'm sorry, but I appreciate the spontaneous laugh I so enjoy from this site.

 

You literally believe that God's TESTING of beings isn't temptation. That's fucking hilarious! I think I don't even need to go there.

 

That's gonna make a GREAT bumpersticker! LMAO

 

Okay, okay. I'm done with that...**still laughing, sorry**

 

 

 

 

I would recommend you go look up the show "Bait Car" and see how it can be compared with God's actions with the tree of knowledge.

 

Testing is not the same as tempting. The evil desires were there and a physical object EXPOSES the evil desires.

 

God TESTS but Satan TEMPTS (tells people to disobey the commandments) and then rats out people after he gets them to fall.

God knew in advance what was going to go down but He had a contingency plan. He loves us and wants us to COMPREHEND why His rules are needed hence the reason He placed the tree there.

 

 

Thumbelina said: What do you think was the purpose of the tree of life?

 

 

Ummm, I wasn't speaking on the tree of life...unless that is just one of a gazillion names it has been translated into. Last I checked, my post referred to knowledge of good and evil...THAT tree....which...I thought...gave... ummm KNOWLEDGE....

 

Your purple argument is confusing. Adam and Eve weren't going to rebel...UNLESS they ate from that tree... so technically, God didn't have to give freewill in His garden to keep the peace...that was already guaran-damn-teed to begin with. He put the tree there to force a choice that really didn't have to be forced...because, everything was already perfect....thus the only need for said choice was to feel NEEDED.

 

The tree of life is DIFFERENT from the tree of knowledge. Adam and Eve had to eat from it in order to live forever which is why God kicked them out after they sinned, He did not want to perpetuate sin. You said they did not need God but God OWNS everything including the tree of life which they NEEDED to live. God in His mercy then gave them vegetables so they can still be strong but before sin they did not need vegetables. I did not say they weren't going to rebel, I said that the tree allowed sin to manifest itself so we can understand why it is hideous. Will you like to be forced into a marriage? God did not want to force humans and they STILL have a choice, life with Him or death, nothingness, non existence. God does not need us but He loves us and He wants us to be happy and true happinesss comes from a radical dependence on Him.

[TheBluegrassSkeptic]

I was in a discussion about this the other day, but the original question asked why didn't god create an environment for things to exist without having to feed upon one another. Of course, all the religious on the thread responded,"Why don't you tell us what a fair system would have been?" Which really didn't do anything to add to the discussion. One person did pipe up that because of The Fall, that is why we now have the self sustaining system we have, and that prior to the event, everything was vegan. Essentially, he claims that this is still a fantastic system, and all because of The Fall, God at least still gave us an environment to be sustained upon abundantly.

Well, I tackled the whole why-don't-you-tell-us-what-a-fair-system-would-have-been side step.

Here's my thing. First of all, the system was already perfect prior to The Fall, thus the system was fair and sustainable. God decided to allow sin to be introduced into his Eden. It wasn't just the serpent. It was that conspicuous Tree of Knowledge He insisted on putting there to begin with. If a snake could convince these to dipshits to eat it, I'm sure walking by it would have had the same effect after awhile. So, why put that tree in there? Well, like many xtians have said, God wanted to give us a choice. That immediately denotes temptation on God's part being purposely placed in His garden. Now, finally, why would a deity, demand free choice of love? He is still extorting acceptance through sentence of pain and suffering? I'll tell you why.

Perfection in Eden made God unnecessary. Period.

If He never put the tree in there, he would have not been needed. It has nothing to do with freewill to love. This place was so perfect and self-sustained, God was cancelled out.

For me, Eden alone refutes God due to his desire to be needed. He never had to put temptation in that Garden to be needed. He could have made himself a part of that garden and interacted directly, but he opted for a dramatic soap opera.

 

 

God does not tempt beings to do sin. God tests beings, He says obey Him (not to be a pain but because He knows what is right) and if one doesn't then one faces the consequences.

 

Why would a parent tell their children to respect them and to love their siblings? It's for peace's sake, is it not? And where there is peace love and like reigns. What happens to children whose parents never let them be accountable for their bad actions? Also, why do parents sit down and explain rules to children who are old enough to understand? Is it because they want them to understand that it's for their own emotional and possibly physical safety?

 

What was the purpose of the tree of life? According to the bible who caused the sun to shine? Who gives each human the breath of life everyday? Who gives them strength?

 

 

What do you think was the purpose of the tree of life?

 

 

 

God is needed because He does not have derived life but created beings do!

OMFG I'm sorry, but I appreciate the spontaneous laugh I so enjoy from this site.

 

You literally believe that God's TESTING of beings isn't temptation. That's fucking hilarious! I think I don't even need to go there.

 

That's gonna make a GREAT bumpersticker! LMAO

 

Okay, okay. I'm done with that...**still laughing, sorry**

 

 

 

 

I would recommend you go look up the show "Bait Car" and see how it can be compared with God's actions with the tree of knowledge.

 

Testing is not the same as tempting. The evil desires were there and a physical object EXPOSES the evil desires.

 

God TESTS but Satan TEMPTS (tells people to disobey the commandments) and then rats out people after he gets them to fall.

God knew in advance what was going to go down but He had a contingency plan. He loves us and wants us to COMPREHEND why His rules are needed hence the reason He placed the tree there.

 

 

Thumbelina said: What do you think was the purpose of the tree of life?

 

 

Ummm, I wasn't speaking on the tree of life...unless that is just one of a gazillion names it has been translated into. Last I checked, my post referred to knowledge of good and evil...THAT tree....which...I thought...gave... ummm KNOWLEDGE....

 

Your purple argument is confusing. Adam and Eve weren't going to rebel...UNLESS they ate from that tree... so technically, God didn't have to give freewill in His garden to keep the peace...that was already guaran-damn-teed to begin with. He put the tree there to force a choice that really didn't have to be forced...because, everything was already perfect....thus the only need for said choice was to feel NEEDED.

 

The tree of life is DIFFERENT from the tree of knowledge. Adam and Eve had to eat from it in order to live forever which is why God kicked them out after they sinned, He did not want to perpetuate sin. You said they did not need God but God OWNS everything including the tree of life which they NEEDED to live. God in His mercy then gave them vegetables so they can still be strong but before sin they did not need vegetables. I did not say they weren't going to rebel, I said that the tree allowed sin to manifest itself so we can understand why it is hideous. Will you like to be forced into a marriage? God did not want to force humans and they STILL have a choice, life with Him or death, nothingness, non existence. God does not need us but He loves us and He wants us to be happy and true happinesss comes from a radical dependence on Him.

Whether they ate from the tree of life is not known, but I do know after they were kicked out, god blocked the gate with an angel to that very tree. I think you are extrapolating more than what is actually said. Typical. Testing someone IS tempting. Tempting is not necessarily a negative thing. BUT, since you wear your religious goggles to the point they have molded in to your brain, you immediately associate tempt with satan and test with god without any fair rationale on the matter.

[Guest Valk0010]

Well, i still see, my general point even if not argued very well, still left unchallenged. If god despised sin and evil so bad, then if that god was logical he would prevent any opportunity for it to pop up. The god of the bible didn't, he loved his own need for, companionship more then he hated sin. That, as far as the bible god goes, sounds to me, self contradictory particularly considering how supposedly he can't tolerate the presence of sin even thought he allowed Satan to walk into heaven and make a bet with him.

 

You are saying that you would rather not exist? Sin started because God gave created beings the ability to use their will. Sin could have started with any one of us or with any other created being. God has NO fear so why would He let sin stop Him from creating? I'm glad for the opportunity to live forever therefore I'm glad God did not wuss out because he knew Adam and Eve would follow Satan's in his pointless rebellion. God creates beautiful creatures and any being has the potential to get corrupted by their beauty and delude themself into believing they can usurp God. The love of display tends to lead people to the sin of presumption and that happened to Lucifer and it could have happened to any created being. This trial of sin will eventually cause sin to be abhorred and sin will never ever ever arise again. God wanted/wants His creatures to understand, to know intellectually why sin cannot be tolerated and that His rules can be obeyed, His discourse with Satan was a part of that. Satan is a beast but an all powerful God who is able to resurrect people is not worried about him in the least. Job did not give up on God so why are skeptics always criticizing Him?

Actually with all the crap I have gone thru in my life. The idea of nonexistence when I die, sounds really comforting. And give a choice between a Christian world and not being born. I would have rather not been born.

 

And you totally missed my point(you seem to have not read this thread either), and did what amounted to a fallacious arguement from authority.

 

If god hates sin and evil and is the most perfect moral being of all time, he would prevent the possibility of sin at every possible turn. Why allow the possibility of occurring, that in which you most despise, particularly when your a god and can have control over such factors?

 

It would be roughly analogous to a human preventing a murder if he has the chance to prevent one. In fact it seems your defense here, assumes that the opposite of that is true. Its actually wrong to prevent evil when possible. After all god didn't do it at his biggest opportunity, so why should we then in the christian worldview? That is a rhetorical question that I am pretty sure you won't get.

 

And this is not to say, that I am using the problem of evil in the sense that your expecting. The free will defense just doesn't work within the context of my point. That theodicy justifies gods actions after creation. I am saying that if the god of the bible is logically consistent, there would have never been a creation.

 

Ohh and its not a question of fear either, its a question of his nature as a whole. He could be the most bravest thing in the universe (though free will seems to be something that bullies him alot ) but what I am saying still stands.

 

Also logic is logic. Your going to have to prove what I am saying is wrong somehow.

 

ETA:Fixed some grammer errors and added a few more thoughts.

[bornagainathiest]

Well, i still see, my general point even if not argued very well, still left unchallenged. If god despised sin and evil so bad, then if that god was logical he would prevent any opportunity for it to pop up. The god of the bible didn't, he loved his own need for, companionship more then he hated sin. That, as far as the bible god goes, sounds to me, self contradictory particularly considering how supposedly he can't tolerate the presence of sin even thought he allowed Satan to walk into heaven and make a bet with him.

 

You are saying that you would rather not exist? Sin started because God gave created beings the ability to use their will. Sin could have started with any one of us or with any other created being. God has NO fear so why would He let sin stop Him from creating? I'm glad for the opportunity to live forever therefore I'm glad God did not wuss out because he knew Adam and Eve would follow Satan's in his pointless rebellion. God creates beautiful creatures and any being has the potential to get corrupted by their beauty and delude themself into believing they can usurp God. The love of display tends to lead people to the sin of presumption and that happened to Lucifer and it could have happened to any created being. This trial of sin will eventually cause sin to be abhorred and sin will never ever ever arise again. God wanted/wants His creatures to understand, to know intellectually why sin cannot be tolerated and that His rules can be obeyed, His discourse with Satan was a part of that. Satan is a beast but an all powerful God who is able to resurrect people is not worried about him in the least.

 

Job did not give up on God so why are skeptics always criticizing Him?

 

Do you want an honest answer to this question Thumbelina?

 

BAA.

[bornagainathiest]

there must have already been sin ...

 

 

Yup, sin began in heaven. Some speculate that Jesus was about to create this planet and humans which stirred up Satan's ENVY. A silly created being with derived life wanted to create things ex nihilo and he envied Jesus royally and so started his rebellion.

 

Well, I'm glad you use the word 'speculate' Thumbelina. For you that's significant!

 

But perhaps you could help us all out and show us anywhere in the Creation narrative (nowhere else in the Bible please) where it says anything at all about the Trinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

 

BAA.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

Darlin'! You know I miss you but not your craziness. I hope you get insight into these things and soon. I still don't want Luci' to get you.

And it's always a delight to have a believer visit the forum and impart divine truth to all the skeptics.

I especially enjoy being smeared as one who engages in "craziness".

For the sake of lurkers, please explain why my initial response to your answers on Satan and sin represents "craziness".

Please explain why pointing out things that conflict with your version of "truth" is misguided and shows a lack of insight on my part.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

For those unfamiliar with Thumbelina, here's a quick head's up.

 

(Better that you learn these things quickly from me rather than find them out for yourself, the hard way. All things considered, I may well have saved you wasting hours and hours of your lives in fruitless dailog with this sad person.)

 

1.

She's an ultra hard-core Seventh Day Adventist, which also makes her a Bible literalist and Creationist.

 

2.

She expects us (those without any kind of Christian faith) to blindly accept what she writes on faith.

I use the word 'blindly' because even if asked, she'll provide no extra-Biblical evidence whatsoever to back up her Creationist claims of a 6,000 year old universe and Earth. She will provide no extra-Biblical evidence whatsoever to back up her claims of a literal, 6-day Creation. She will provide no extra-Biblical evidence whatsoever to back up her claims of a Mud man and a Rib woman being the the first human beings. In fact, since a literal historic account of real events, involving real people is all written down for us in the book of Genesis, nothing else is needed. It's all there. Evidence isn't needed - only faith!

 

3.

She's on record as declaring that she hates this world. If you read between the lines you'll see how this negative attitude to every aspect of human life colors all of her posts. This ties in with #4.

 

4.

She's also mentioned that she finds it difficult to relate to people on a face-to-face basis. Which neatly explains why she spends so much time with her nose in a Bible or online, bludgeoning the like of us with her 'truth'. A substitute for dealing with the real world, real people and real life, perhaps?

 

5.

From the content of her posts it's not difficult to see that even though she says she loves Jesus, her real and true passion is the Bible. Hardly surprising really, given that the former is imaginary and the latter is a real and concrete object she can devote her life to 'worshipping'. (For worshipping, please read wasting.)

 

6.

She thinks it's ok to slander, mock and taunt Ex-christians like Centauri.

This is especially interesting since just a few hours ago, when replying to highrishman, she wrote...

"Our sins are recorded in heaven and sin (the transgression of God's Law) did begin there so pristine heaven was tainted because God permitted freedom of CHOICE."

Please draw you own conclusions.

 

7.

Thumbelina wronged some members of this forum a while back by breaching the confidentiality of the Extimonial sub-forum and using private and confidential information against these people. To be fair, she didn't know that she was doing wrong, but when her deed was pointed out her reaction was most informative.

At first she just couldn't see what all the fuss was about. Then, she just couldn't see how her actions could be construed as wrongdoing. Then, having been made aware of exactly how she harmed others, she had to be pressed to apologize to them.

Interesting, especially in the light of #3 and #4. Unable to properly relate to other people, perhaps? Unable to treat others with respect, unable to see them as her equal and unable to tolerate any other viewpoint than her own? (Please go back to Centauri's last sentence and compare.)

 

8.

For the confused, Thumbelina refers to Satan as 'Luci'. (Lucifer)

Yet another not-so-subtle example of how she (mis)treats anything or anyone she thinks is in the wrong.

Mockery.

So, Centauri is lumped together with Satan and both receive her mocking, taunting, slandering words.

Because Centauri repeatedly points out the same problems with Thumbelina's theology, she calls him, "robotnik".

 

9.

If the status quo still prevails Thumbelina won't respond to the questions I've put to her in this thread. I'll be on 'ignore'. She's marked me down as someone she doesn't want to talk to. So my questions are an experiment. Will she? Won't she? My money says 'no'.

 

10.

However, if anyone else would like to run with my questions and put them to her, please feel free. I'll be fascinated to she how she reacts.

.

.

.

 

 

In conclusion:

Ok, the choice is yours. But, if you do engage with her, please don't fool yourself into thinking that anything you can write will ever make any difference. It won't. This is voice of experience talking.

 

Please also heed my words of caution and warning about her. She's not to be trusted and has a record of hurtful behavior in this forum.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[highrishman]

Recently when discussing the bible and expressing my doubts, I usually begin with the beginning. Every chrisitian is familiar with the part, so its a good place to begin.

 

If God, who is a supremely perfect being, created the angels, and then gave them free will, why would they turn away?

 

 

If sin can be explained then it can be excused. I think you echo the sentiments that sin is POINTLESS and the beings that started it were STUPID and CRAZY.

 

 

 

For starters, God is supposed to be a supremely perfect and intelligent being. Wouldnt he have forseen the rebellion?

 

Of course he foresaw it, He is omniscient.

 

 

And the angels, who were also supposed to be incredibly intelligent, would they really have been foolish enough to turn against their creator?

 

 

 

Yes, they were that foolish, Satan spread his trade and his tail drew 1/3 of the angels. He was a serious brown noser. He peddled his lies and is still doing it today: 'Created beings can be good without God or they are God, we don't need God, Do what thou wilt, YOLO (You Only Live Once), God does not exist' (have you ever had a person who envies or fears you and who pretends that you don't exist?

 

 

 

Supposedly there is no sinning in heaven. Wouldn't Lucifer have sinned by turning away from God?

 

 

 

Who said that there was no sinning in heaven? Our sins are recorded in heaven and sin (the transgression of God's Law) did begin there so pristine heaven was tainted because God permitted freedom of CHOICE. So yes, sin began in heaven! Where there is no choice there is no love. God is love so He gave created beings the choice not to love and worship Him. God does not believe in shotgun weddings (the church is His bride).

 

 

Its scary how many questions turn up within the first few chapters. Moving to Adam and Eve. Would God have really planted the tree of knowledge in the garden of eden?

 

 

Yup! That was His way of giving them a choice. Do they want to live forever with Him or do they want to die, to go back to nothingness and not live forever?

 

The beings that started it were stupid and crazy? I think you're mistaken. They were angels. Lucifer was the highest ranking angel. No way was he simply "stupid and crazy."

 

You say God is omnicient. Then he forsees everything. Then what was the point of him giving free will? He knew exactly what would happen, who would turn away, who wouldn't. It doesn't make sense. I don't understand the christian idea of free will. You're saying God gave you free will to choose for yourself, but wait, if you don't choose my way, you're going to suffer for eternity? Doesn't really seem like a choice to me.

 

You say Satan was a brown noser? Oh he just floated up to other angels and kissed their ass until they turned away from God? Come on, Satan was an angel. He just suddenly turned evil and wants all our souls because he has free will?

 

So instead of God just allowing them to choose to love him, he said "Don't eat of this tree"? Couldn't they have just chosen to love him? It doesn't make sense.

[highrishman]

After doing a little research, Revalations 21:4 states there will be no death, sorrow, crying, pain. Revalations 21:8 goes on to say the sinful are not in heaven, but in the lake of fire. Even further more, Revalations 21:27 says nothing impure will enter heaven. This implies to me that heaven is supposed to be a pure, holy place. Meaning there would be no sin. Therefore satan could not have sinned.

 

I also wanted to add that if God is omniscient, and he forsaw the entire events that will unfold throughout creation, then in essence he would be the creator of sin. If he knew that Eve would give into temptation, and he put the tree there anyways, then for all purposes of this argument, God created sin. Not to mention, if he forsaw everything that ever will or has happened, then where does free will come into play? If God knows everything that will happen, then that's assuming everything is predetermined, meaning there is no such thing as free will. It's contradictory. It's a paradox really.

 

You also never answered my question of where God goes when he's not observing this world. He obviously wasn't present when Satan tempted Eve. Or else he could've had the power to prevent those events that cursed all of mankind forever. He could've stopped Satan right there. God is divine, and loves us so much he wouldn't allow anything bad to happen right? Well then, why did he allow Satan to have dominion over mankind?

 

Finally, I'd like to point out that christians ALWAYS assume that atheists either read the bible, but didn't understand it, or we weren't truely saved by the blood of christ, or something along those lines. I can assure you that I, as well as many others here (from what I've seen), that I was a bible-thumping christian who was positive I was going to heaven. I studied with people highly versed in the bible. My grandfather is even a preacher. So don't assume that I don't or never understood the bible.

[TheBluegrassSkeptic]

After doing a little research, Revalations 21:4 states there will be no death, sorrow, crying, pain. Revalations 21:8 goes on to say the sinful are not in heaven, but in the lake of fire. Even further more, Revalations 21:27 says nothing impure will enter heaven. This implies to me that heaven is supposed to be a pure, holy place. Meaning there would be no sin. Therefore satan could not have sinned.

 

I also wanted to add that if God is omniscient, and he forsaw the entire events that will unfold throughout creation, then in essence he would be the creator of sin. If he knew that Eve would give into temptation, and he put the tree there anyways, then for all purposes of this argument, God created sin. Not to mention, if he forsaw everything that ever will or has happened, then where does free will come into play? If God knows everything that will happen, then that's assuming everything is predetermined, meaning there is no such thing as free will. It's contradictory. It's a paradox really.

 

You also never answered my question of where God goes when he's not observing this world. He obviously wasn't present when Satan tempted Eve. Or else he could've had the power to prevent those events that cursed all of mankind forever. He could've stopped Satan right there. God is divine, and loves us so much he wouldn't allow anything bad to happen right? Well then, why did he allow Satan to have dominion over mankind?

 

Finally, I'd like to point out that christians ALWAYS assume that atheists either read the bible, but didn't understand it, or we weren't truely saved by the blood of christ, or something along those lines. I can assure you that I, as well as many others here (from what I've seen), that I was a bible-thumping christian who was positive I was going to heaven. I studied with people highly versed in the bible. My grandfather is even a preacher. So don't assume that I don't or never understood the bible.

I had a similar mind set to deal with just last night. Gentleman firmly believed I was a "faker" because no one would ever accept God, receive his love and then walk away. I find it interesting. He admits the negative connotation to the word "faker". So, by his standard, if he once liked chocolate, then later changed his mind, he "faked" his liking to begin with. *Facepalm*

[roadrunner]

After doing a little research, Revalations 21:4 states there will be no death, sorrow, crying, pain. Revalations 21:8 goes on to say the sinful are not in heaven, but in the lake of fire. Even further more, Revalations 21:27 says nothing impure will enter heaven. This implies to me that heaven is supposed to be a pure, holy place. Meaning there would be no sin. Therefore satan could not have sinned.

 

I also wanted to add that if God is omniscient, and he forsaw the entire events that will unfold throughout creation, then in essence he would be the creator of sin. If he knew that Eve would give into temptation, and he put the tree there anyways, then for all purposes of this argument, God created sin. Not to mention, if he forsaw everything that ever will or has happened, then where does free will come into play? If God knows everything that will happen, then that's assuming everything is predetermined, meaning there is no such thing as free will. It's contradictory. It's a paradox really.

 

You also never answered my question of where God goes when he's not observing this world. He obviously wasn't present when Satan tempted Eve. Or else he could've had the power to prevent those events that cursed all of mankind forever. He could've stopped Satan right there. God is divine, and loves us so much he wouldn't allow anything bad to happen right? Well then, why did he allow Satan to have dominion over mankind?

 

Finally, I'd like to point out that christians ALWAYS assume that atheists either read the bible, but didn't understand it, or we weren't truely saved by the blood of christ, or something along those lines. I can assure you that I, as well as many others here (from what I've seen), that I was a bible-thumping christian who was positive I was going to heaven. I studied with people highly versed in the bible. My grandfather is even a preacher. So don't assume that I don't or never understood the bible.

 

 

so heaven is just a bunch of sinners sinning in gods prescence rather than in his apparent absence down here on earth. god is also omnipresent but in the OT it deals mainly with god the father and preincarnate forms of jesus. Thinking about it now as an unbeliever I don't know that omnipresent should be written off as "god is everywhere" as much as it should be considered that "god can be in more than one place at time if he chooses".

there is no biblical justification to assert that sin exists in heaven. this is clearly getting into liberal christianity. the further you venture into liberal christianity, the more difficult it is to reason with someone since they fill in the blank with whatever they choose.

 

"Yup! That was His way of giving them a choice. Do they want to live forever with Him or do they want to die, to go back to nothingness and not live forever?"

 

So this person clearly is one of the liberals who feels hell doesnt exist. we do have a reasonable amout of scripture that back up the concept of a hell. Dont waste your time arguing with this person. their views are so skewed it makes no sense. this is christianity 3.0 a new way to drop the bar all the way down for god and make his existence unnecessary but true. UGHH!

[roadrunner]

to see how you can't argue with a liberal christian look at the Al sharpton and Christopher Hitchens Debate. dan barker refers to debating with one is like trying to "nail jello to a tree"

[centauri]

Darlin'! You know I miss you but not your craziness. I hope you get insight into these things and soon. I still don't want Luci' to get you.

And it's always a delight to have a believer visit the forum and impart divine truth to all the skeptics.

I especially enjoy being smeared as one who engages in "craziness".

For the sake of lurkers, please explain why my initial response to your answers on Satan and sin represents "craziness".

Please explain why pointing out things that conflict with your version of "truth" is misguided and shows a lack of insight on my part.

 

Because all you tend to do is make God out to be malevolent so you can delude yourself into believing he may not exist, ya chicken ya!

The irony of this is simply staggering.

You've repeatedly declared Satan to be the malevolent boogy man of the universe yet you're utterly unable to show from the Hebrew scriptures where Satan is ever identified as being what you claim.

The Jewish view of Satan is completely different than the Christian one, which has been pointed out to you over the years.

Their view is supported by their scriptures, which were written long before Christianity came along and revised Yahweh into a Trinity, Satan into the Devil, and salvation into a pagan ritual where one must be covered by the blood of a human sacrifice, which in itself is illegal according to God's alleged law.

You're steeped in Christian mythology, so you can delude yourself into believing that your version of a loving sky-daddy exists.

That's why I've pointed out many times that you don't really believe the whole Bible, you only believe selected parts of Christian doctrine.

There isn't anything divine about any of this, it's simply human preferences and wishful thinking all dressed up as "fact" and "truth".

 

There's none so blind as those who do not wish to see. You are able to see a loving God if you WANT to.

Since when do desires and wants determine reality???

People can see Jesus on a piece of burnt toast, they can see angels flying out of clouds, they can see UFO's hovering over their house, they can see alien messages in crop circles, and they can see the Devil at football games.

Amazing as it is, you've managed to create your own world where your version of God is real and anyone that doesn't agree with your reality has somehow deluded themselves.

The Bible God shows all the elements of human instability.

It has tantrums, it's jealous, it contradicts itself, it justifies killing by claiming itself sovereign, and it creates suffering in the name of doing a greater good.

This deity also manipulates human behavior to serve its needs and wants to glorify itself.

It predestines according to whim, wants to be worshipped, and will kill to accomplish that end.

[centauri]

God does not tempt beings to do sin. God tests beings, He says obey Him (not to be a pain but because He knows what is right) and if one doesn't then one faces the consequences.

That puts Jesus in a bind.

By declaring all foods clean as he did in Mark 7:18-19, Jesus was tempting people to eat unclean food and not to worry about breaking the law.

All foods are not clean and telling people that they are is disobeying God's code for right and wrong behavior.

Jesus sinned by giving people a false teaching and tempted them into doing wrong.

[highrishman]

Darlin'! You know I miss you but not your craziness. I hope you get insight into these things and soon. I still don't want Luci' to get you.

And it's always a delight to have a believer visit the forum and impart divine truth to all the skeptics.

I especially enjoy being smeared as one who engages in "craziness".

For the sake of lurkers, please explain why my initial response to your answers on Satan and sin represents "craziness".

Please explain why pointing out things that conflict with your version of "truth" is misguided and shows a lack of insight on my part.

 

Because all you tend to do is make God out to be malevolent so you can delude yourself into believing he may not exist, ya chicken ya!

The irony of this is simply staggering.

You've repeatedly declared Satan to be the malevolent boogy man of the universe yet you're utterly unable to show from the Hebrew scriptures where Satan is ever identified as being what you claim.

The Jewish view of Satan is completely different than the Christian one, which has been pointed out to you over the years.

Their view is supported by their scriptures, which were written long before Christianity came along and revised Yahweh into a Trinty, Satan into the Devil, and salvation into a pagan ritual where one must be covered by the blood of a human sacrifice, which in itself is illegal according to God's alleged law.

You're steeped in Christian mythology, so you can delude yourself into believing that your version of a loving sky-daddy exists.

That's why I've pointed out many times that you don't really believe the whole Bible, you only believe selected parts of Christian doctrine.

There isn't anything divine about any of this, it's simply human perferences and wishful thinking all dressed up as "fact" and "truth".

 

There's none so blind as those who do not wish to see. You are able to see a loving God if you WANT to.

Since when do desires and wants determine reality???

People can see Jesus on a piece of burnt toast, they can see angels flying out of clouds, they can see UFO's hovering over their house, they can see alien messages in crop circles, and they can see the Devil at football games.

Amazing as it is, you've managed to create your own world where your version of God is real and anyone that doesn't agree with your reality has somehow deluded themselves.

The Bible God shows all the elements of human instability.

It has tantrums, it's jealous, it contradicts itself, it justifies killing by claiming itself sovereign, and it creates suffering in the name of doing a greater good.

This deity also manipulates human behavior to serve its needs and wants to glorify itself.

It predestines according to whim, wants to be worshipped, and will kill to accomplish that end.

 

Great post! I love how she assumes we're all the blind ones. Maybe it's the other way around Thumbelina? You can see that there's life without God if you WANT to.

[highrishman]

After doing a little research, Revalations 21:4 states there will be no death, sorrow, crying, pain. Revalations 21:8 goes on to say the sinful are not in heaven, but in the lake of fire. Even further more, Revalations 21:27 says nothing impure will enter heaven. This implies to me that heaven is supposed to be a pure, holy place. Meaning there would be no sin. Therefore satan could not have sinned.

 

I also wanted to add that if God is omniscient, and he forsaw the entire events that will unfold throughout creation, then in essence he would be the creator of sin. If he knew that Eve would give into temptation, and he put the tree there anyways, then for all purposes of this argument, God created sin. Not to mention, if he forsaw everything that ever will or has happened, then where does free will come into play? If God knows everything that will happen, then that's assuming everything is predetermined, meaning there is no such thing as free will. It's contradictory. It's a paradox really.

 

You also never answered my question of where God goes when he's not observing this world. He obviously wasn't present when Satan tempted Eve. Or else he could've had the power to prevent those events that cursed all of mankind forever. He could've stopped Satan right there. God is divine, and loves us so much he wouldn't allow anything bad to happen right? Well then, why did he allow Satan to have dominion over mankind?

 

Finally, I'd like to point out that christians ALWAYS assume that atheists either read the bible, but didn't understand it, or we weren't truely saved by the blood of christ, or something along those lines. I can assure you that I, as well as many others here (from what I've seen), that I was a bible-thumping christian who was positive I was going to heaven. I studied with people highly versed in the bible. My grandfather is even a preacher. So don't assume that I don't or never understood the bible.

I had a similar mind set to deal with just last night. Gentleman firmly believed I was a "faker" because no one would ever accept God, receive his love and then walk away. I find it interesting. He admits the negative connotation to the word "faker". So, by his standard, if he once liked chocolate, then later changed his mind, he "faked" his liking to begin with. *Facepalm*

 

It kills me. What drives me crazy is I used to be that way too. Im glad to debate christians now, because I still see all the same baseless claims I used to make. Just about every statement thumbalina has made is a spitting image of an arguement I would've used just years, if not months ago. It's saddening to think that I thought that way for so long. But, I'm only 24, so I've got lots of life left to live for me.

[mymistake]

You say God is omnicient. Then he forsees everything. Then what was the point of him giving free will? He knew exactly what would happen, who would turn away, who wouldn't. It doesn't make sense. I don't understand the christian idea of free will. You're saying God gave you free will to choose for yourself, but wait, if you don't choose my way, you're going to suffer for eternity? Doesn't really seem like a choice to me.

 

The Christian concept of free will is a cop out to let an all powerful myth off the hook for things God did. God know what would happen. God set the limitations up so there could be only one outcome. And now supposedly God has to get revenge on his victims. When Christians ramble about free will they ignore the fact that nobody asked to be born into this world. God didn't ask any of us if we wanted to suffer in a harsh world for a few years where if we were born into a family without Christianity we would probably wind up spending all of eternity burning in hell. Freewill is bankrupt and false. It doesn't even reflect the way humans actually make choices. We are more like computers. Our hardware is determined by biochemistry and DNA. Our software is programed by the events that shape our life. Basically we make choices based on our experience, training.

 

You say Satan was a brown noser? Oh he just floated up to other angels and kissed their ass until they turned away from God? Come on, Satan was an angel. He just suddenly turned evil and wants all our souls because he has free will?

 

So instead of God just allowing them to choose to love him, he said "Don't eat of this tree"? Couldn't they have just chosen to love him? It doesn't make sense.

 

That is Thumby at her best. She is good at making lame excuses and passing out silly insults.