Pre Fall Of Satan, Pre Creation And Post Creation Evil Show That The Bible God Is Self Refuting. (Comments Criticism, Please!)

[Astreja]

Um, last year we agreed that we would basically just exchange greetings because you find certain biblical topics too disturbing...

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Thumbelina, are you fucking kidding Me?  I agreed to nothing of the sort.  I will raise whatever the hell topic I want to raise, and respond to whatever the fuck I want to respond to, and you will not have a say in the matter.

 

Do not misrepresent Me again.

 

I see you're asking a question on a disturbing topic for unbelievers or for people (who might still be Christian or religious) who have a false understanding of God and His justice.

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You can't even prove your god exists, Thumbelina.  Until that happens, and until the god itself comes here in person to tell us its opinions, there is no such thing as a "false understanding of God and His Justice."

 

I also read your entire sad little apologetic on justice.

 

It's mythological crap.  All of it.  The worst tyrant and the finest saint share identical fates in their graves, and no amount of whining "But that's not faaaaair!" will change that. Deal with it.

[bornagainathiest]

Hey Astreja!

 

 

 

Revelation 20 describes a period of time when the wicked dead will be given back their MORTAL bodies (God puts them back together, it's not an innate )...

 

Okay, that's just plain silly, Thumbelina.  Your god brings people back from the dead, along with all their faults, for the specific purpose of punishing them?

 

That's sick; no, that goes far, far beyond sick.  The moral thing to do would be to let the "wicked dead" remain dead, not bring them back to life for the express purpose of inflicting pain upon them.

 

 

If you think that's sick Astreja, why not ask Thumbelina how long it takes her 'merciful' God to reduce people to ashes in the lake of fire? 

How long as in how many years?

 

If she won't say, here's some links that'll help explain the awful truth she's trying to hide.

 

http://www.logosapostolic.org/greek_word_studies/166_aionios_eternal_everlasting.htm#3.1

 

http://bible-truths.com/aeonion.htm

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeon

 

Thumby will say that the wicked dead aren't punished for all eternity, but only until they're reduced to ashes. 

The catch is, it takes an AGE (aion) for this to happen.

 

So how long is an Aion? 

 

How long do these oh-so-deserving 'wicked and unrepentant' people deserve to suffer like this?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_Horror

 

Just ask her.

 

BAA.

[Ravenstar]

 

 

Thank you.. I understand it better now.

 

Okay.. that's all kinds of creepy. You get to die once... then you get reanimated just to be killed again. (umm.. death is the wages of sin - but it seems one death isn't enough for god)

 

 

 

All of us tend to suffer that one death and many people still choose to be unrighteous to the end. The knowledge of hell prevents man from being totally depraved and vengeful.

I disagree... there is no evidence that those who do not know or believe in hell are depraved or vengeful, much less totally. The evidence suggests that most people are pretty much the same.. just trying to make a living and take care of their loved ones... there are damaged people that do bad things, there are also lots of people who do marvelous, loving things. Religion doesn't seem to play a huge part in that because all these things happen across the board no matter what race, creed, background, religion, or no religion. If there was evidence that christians are actually better than others I might give it some weight. there isn't.

 

It seems to me, in this interpretation, that humans are being used to put on a cosmic morality play for the rest of creation... ie: to 'show' the angels or whatever else exists that god is good, and just. According to this view, the heavenly hosts must have some reservations about gods' fairness or there wouldn't really be any question or need for this test of humanity.(?) Very interesting.

 

 

 

Thumbs up.

 

C.S. Lewis goes into this quite a bit in his Perelandra series...

 

And quite illogical considering the omniscience and omnipotence of this god. If it planned it this way.. wow, cruel.

 

 

It was part of His permissive will and not His expressed will. He did not WANT it to occur, He let it occur for a bigger purpose.

 

If an omnipotent and omniscient being did not WANT it to happen, it wouldn't happen. That's the very definition of omnipotent and omnicient.

Could it not have just given the knowledge of the outcome to his creations and avoided the pain, suffering and death of billions?, instead of having it acted out on sentient beings?

 

 

 

It's one thing to know of pain than to actually experience it. The creatures were warned but some beings like to learn the hard way.

Again, an omnipotent being could convey that knowledge in a way that no one could misunderstand.

 

 

 

 

Doesn't god know who will or will not 'go bad?'

 

 

 

Yes

 

 

 

- why create them in the first place?

 

 

 

As Creator it's His choice to create whatever or whomever He wants.

 

That's a cop out. It's pretty easy to see that it could have created beings who don't 'go bad', or at least educate them... omniscience demands it. If it knows all then there is no reason to allow this to occur. All this says is that this god is not omnipotent because he could have created it differently - omnipotence means no limits.

 

When you consider a being that is not constrained by physical laws or time this plan makes absolutely no sense whatsoever OR we are just sick entertainment for this supreme being.

 

 

 

No, you said it above, there is none good but God, He had to show what selflessness is in order to get His creatures to freely love Him. Sin was foreign to created beings until the father of lies started it.

 

There is no scripture that says satan created evil, it most clearly states that god did though. Isaiah 45:7.   If it is the creator of the entire universe then it is responsible for everything.

 

AND think about this... unfortunately the 'actors' (human beings) have no say in whether to actually be a part of this play, (no one asks to be born as far as I know - because that would presuppose an existence before physical life.. and suggests an immortal soul) and the 'ending' is real, not make believe. nice.

 

 

 

Well, yes.

So, we are brought into existence not knowing shit and thrown into this 'play' with the ending of torture and death... with no say? Kind of totally wipes out the entire concept of free will now, doesn't it?

 

And why oh why does the creator of the entire UNIVERSE have such an obsession with blood (and human/animal sacrifice)? Seems a bit, umm.. petty for something that could create galaxies and black holes and such.

 

 

God told Adam and Eve they would die, death NEVER occurred before they sinned, they really could not grasp it fully. God had to demonstrate what happens when one dies. The blood REPRESENTS life, it explains this in the biblical texts.

Adam and Eve supposedly were innocent... That's some understanding and caring god you have there. Punishing innocents. Maybe he should not have put the damn tree in the garden to begin with, kind of like we remove dangerous things from our children until they are mature enough to understand the dangers.

 

Also.. if Jesus was resurrected bodily, where is he now? If he is in heaven does that mean heaven is a physical place? How exactly does that work?

 

 

 

Yes, after Jesus was resurrected He let Thomas touch Him, He was a physical being. Jesus is at the right hand of God interceding for man, He's pleading His blood. It's hard to grasp.

I'm not an idiot, it's not hard to grasp... and I was a SDA, a Pentacostal and also studied JW beliefs at various times - trying to find the truth. I've studied the Bible, extensively. I can understand things that make sense. But my question was ignored... if he is a physical being, where is he? If he is physical then wherever he is MUST be physical... so where is this place?

 

The Bible is full of blood and sacrifice, starting with Cain and Abel. Animal sacrifice, child sacrifice... sacrifice was very popular in the OT times..by many cultures, especially the sacrifice of first born children. They used to bury sacrificed children under their buildings as a blessing. Unfortunately... the wages of sin are death, not dying for a few days and being resurrected - how can that count? Jesus only died once as far as the Bible says. Doesn't it say that Jesus went to hell? I thought hell hadn't been created yet? How does that work?

 

For some bizarre reason god likes the smell of burning flesh... not sure how that works either.

[Astreja]

Thumby will say that the wicked dead aren't punished for all eternity, but only until they're reduced to ashes.

 

The catch is, it takes an AGE (aion) for this to happen.

 

So how long is an Aion?

 

How long do these oh-so-deserving 'wicked and unrepentant' people deserve to suffer like this?

---

 

The idea of punishment by fire, even briefly, is hideous in just about every respect.

 

- One only has to consider the unfortunate individuals currently fighting for their lives in hospital burn wards to realize that the ancients chose fire as a scare tactic and torture/execution method precisely because it's a simple-to-implement and readily available way of inflicting intense pain, intractable damage and horrible scarring. They didn't have skin grafts or particularly good analgesia back in those days.

 

- It doesn't take the mind of a god to realize that bringing someone back from the dead and then torturing them -- even for a few seconds, never mind "aions" -- is a nonsensical, futile and grossly immoral act. It's vengeance, not justice. It's the deliberate infliction of completely unnecessary pain, playing into primitive bloodlust instincts with no hope whatsoever that the miscreant will be able to make amends for past misdeeds. It solves nothing, and taints all who participate in it. It's just a sad little bit of lynch-mob drama for a friggin' cheering section of butt-hurt angels going "Yeah, that'll teach him!"

 

- And any person who would describe such a god as "loving" and deliberately worship it is either deluded, scared beyond the capacity for rational thought, or morally bankrupt. With such a significant burden of intellectional and emotional deficit, said individual should not be trusted with any position of responsibility in polite society, nor with the care of children or vulnerable adults, as their critical thinking facilities and social conscience are quite obviously damaged.

 

Speaking for Myself, I would never, ever consent to even My worst enemy on this planet being brought back to life for the purpose of being burned to death again. I would have to put aside My past feelings and plead for said enemy to be spared. If the god insisted on proceeding, I would carry that burden of grief and shame for the remainder of My existence. Perhaps I would even dive into the flames Myself, in the hope of finding the peace of death in an aeon or so. :-(

[bornagainathiest]

Oh my, Astreja!

 

It gets much, much worse than simply incinerating the wicked over a v-e-r-y long time.

(If you take the Bible literally, that is.)

 

Here's a link to Christianforums, where someone asks about the, 'Different levels of torture in hell'.

 

Post #7, by WebersHome shows how LITERAL Christianity turns people into monsters or lets the 'inner' monsters out.

He describes what happens after Judgement and before the wicked dead are thrown into the lake of fire - to be slowly reduced to ashes.

 

http://www.christianforums.com/t7427963/

 

(Excuse me, I feel quite unwell.   )

 

BAA.

[Astreja]

BAA, how apt that the Frankenstein's-monster god of Thumbelina -- With "goodness" and "justice" and "love" and egregious torture stitched together -- turns the believers into monsters, too.

[bornagainathiest]

BAA, how apt that the Frankenstein's-monster god of Thumbelina -- With "goodness" and "justice" and "love" and egregious torture stitched together -- turns the believers into monsters, too.

 

The Nazi's believed that incinerating the Jews was "good" and "just" and "loving", Astreja.

 

If you truly believe, you can justify any evil. 

 

So, for true believer, read... monster.

 

BAA.

[Astreja]

I've been thinking about "If you truly believe, you can justify any evil."  BAA, there's something critically important in that phrase that resonated deeply with Me, and I think it needs to be extended far beyond religious belief into life-in-general.

[Ravenstar]

This is the difference between belief and knowledge, or wisdom.

 

You guys touched on something quite profound, I agree.

[bornagainathiest]

I've been thinking about "If you truly believe, you can justify any evil."  BAA, there's something critically important in that phrase that resonated deeply with Me, and I think it needs to be extended far beyond religious belief into life-in-general.

 

Ok then you guys (Astreja and Ravenstar )...how about this?

 

Here's what Josh Pantera posted yesterday, over in the Science/Religion sub-forum.

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Posted Yesterday, 08:18 PM

BAA wrote:

But I do know that there is more to life and existence than what we can currently see and comprehend. Here I agree with Josh. Not fully, but mostly. There does seem to be some underlying tendency for the universe to organize complex things out of simpler components. Something happens to make life out inert materials. As you put it...there's an,'unseen inferred guidance or influence'. I've come to understand that it isn't something religious or solely humanocentric. But just what IT is, I don't know. I wish I DID know, BC!

 

Josh Pantera replied:

I'm sure that you understand this influence as natural, as I do. And since BC keeps saying that she wants to isolate this away from the ID movement, which is errant, then I see no real harm in where she's trying to go with this line of inquiry. The main thing is that this line of inquiry is a work in progress, we truly don't know with any certainty. I couldn't agree more.

 

That's the most important thing BC. Where people usually go wrong is when they take their speculation as hard fact. I have suspicions about existence itself (as in the entire realm thereof)and consciousness as being interconnected, inseparable and I drift off into Idealist Pantheism in certain ways. But I also fully understand that I could be completely wrong too. These things are less than certain, but worthy of exploration for sure.

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Can you see what's going on here and how it's totally different from anything Thumbelina writes?

 

Josh, BlackCat and myself are doing the following...

1. We aren't certain about the meaning of life, the purpose of the universe and other BIG quesions like that.

2. We freely and openly admit that we could be wrong.

3. We respect each other's p.o.v and converse as equals.

4. We encourage and uplift each other.

 

Now, compare and contrast the way Thumby does things...

 

1. She's absolutely certain about the meaning of life, the purpose of the universe and all the other BIG questions.

2. She never admits that she could be wrong about anything.

3. She never respects anyone else's p.o.v. and always talks DOWN to everyone.

4. She never encourages and uplifts anyone, preferring to mock, tease, taunt and insult them.

 

Why?

Because she's a... T-R-U-E.. B-E-L-I-E-V-E-R...!

 

Her absolute and unbending certainty mean that she can't be wrong, can't respect any other p.o.v., can't respect anyone else as her equal and can't relate to anyone else in anything other than disparaging terms. 

 

So, I'd paraphrase this... "Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely." ...to read like this.

"Belief tends to corrupt and absolute belief corrupts absolutely.  Which is why, if you believe absolutely, you can justify any evil and think it good.  Thus the absolute believer becomes the absolute monster."

 

If there's no room left in your soul for doubt, how can you possibly respect anyone who doubts what you believe?  

Lacking respect for others, it quickly becomes second-nature for you to talk down to these doubters, to mock and to tease and to insult them.  And when they point out your disrespectful behavior, you just can't comprehend their problem (huh? Me?) or you justify yourself, using the very thing you worship... the printed poison of the Bible.

 

See how it fits the Thumb?

 

But, to pick up on Astreja's point, such belief-based corruption does extend beyond mere religious matters, imho.  It doesn't matter what you believe - it's the extent to which you believe it that matters. If you believe something absolutely, it will corrupt you absolutely and turn you into an absolute monster. 

 

Political examples of absolute belief creating 'monsters' aren't difficult to bring to mind.  Fanatical Fascism has given us Hitler's Germany, Mussolini's Italy, Franco's Spain and the Right-Wing Juntas of Latin America.  Equally-fanatical Marxism has given us Lenin's Soviet Union, Mao Tse Tung's China, Kim Il Song's North Korea and Pohl Pot's Cambodia.  It doesn't matter if it's religious or secular - if you believe it absolutely, it will corrupt you... absolutely, making you into an absolute monster in the service of whatever 'good' cause you think you're serving.

 

So, if millions have to die in the killing fields - so be it.  If dissenters have to be tortured, killed and 'disappeared' - so be it.  If genetic undesirables have to incinerated - so be it.  If whole societies have to be ethnically 'cleansed' - so be it.  If billions have to be thrown into Hell - so be it.

 

As long as you can justify your actions as being "good" you absolutely believe in, that's ok.  Whatever the cause, religious or secular, the TRUE BELIEVERS will be there!

 

(Uggh!  I feel dirty, just thinking and writing about this s**t!  )

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[srd]

Actually, Yahweh the biblical god is both the creator of good and evil. Some examples:

 

Should evil befall a city and Yahweh has not done it? (Amos 3:6)

I am Yahweh and there is none other; I fashion light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil. I am Yahweh who does all these things! (Isa 45:6-7)

Who makes a person dumb or deaf, gives sight or makes blind? Is it not I, Yahweh! (Ex 4;11)

 

This image of Yahweh WAS a byproduct of what the biblical writers took as a theological given-- i.e., that Yahweh is Sovereign. This is what it means to be sovereign. There is no Satan figure or Devil in the OT. He is not "created" until the 3rd - 2nd c. BC.

 

Yahweh is sovereign also meant as the above citations show, that all historical events, national or individual, were Yahweh's doing. Now what you don't here about is that this theology WAS NOT unique to the biblical writers. Marduk, the patron god of Babylon was also seen as sovereign, and Chemosh, the god of the Moabites, same thing (see the Moabite stels and the Babylonian cylinder seal). Or read more about it here -- Bible contradiction #6 Does man return to the dust upon his death OR is he resurrected?  -- middle section under Deuteronomic theology.

 

Correcdt, the NT idea od devil is totally anathema to the OT idea that Yahweh is sovereign. I remember watching The Elevator ??? with some friends, where the devil posses the women and they all get killed except the man at the end who forgives. This should have been done with OT theology in mind. Yahweh is the destributer of evil, period.