Pre Fall Of Satan, Pre Creation And Post Creation Evil Show That The Bible God Is Self Refuting. (Comments Criticism, Please!)

[Thumbelina]

I was in a discussion about this the other day, but the original question asked why didn't god create an environment for things to exist without having to feed upon one another. Of course, all the religious on the thread responded,"Why don't you tell us what a fair system would have been?" Which really didn't do anything to add to the discussion. One person did pipe up that because of The Fall, that is why we now have the self sustaining system we have, and that prior to the event, everything was vegan. Essentially, he claims that this is still a fantastic system, and all because of The Fall, God at least still gave us an environment to be sustained upon abundantly.

Well, I tackled the whole why-don't-you-tell-us-what-a-fair-system-would-have-been side step.

Here's my thing. First of all, the system was already perfect prior to The Fall, thus the system was fair and sustainable. God decided to allow sin to be introduced into his Eden. It wasn't just the serpent. It was that conspicuous Tree of Knowledge He insisted on putting there to begin with. If a snake could convince these to dipshits to eat it, I'm sure walking by it would have had the same effect after awhile. So, why put that tree in there? Well, like many xtians have said, God wanted to give us a choice. That immediately denotes temptation on God's part being purposely placed in His garden. Now, finally, why would a deity, demand free choice of love? He is still extorting acceptance through sentence of pain and suffering? I'll tell you why.

Perfection in Eden made God unnecessary. Period.

If He never put the tree in there, he would have not been needed. It has nothing to do with freewill to love. This place was so perfect and self-sustained, God was cancelled out.

For me, Eden alone refutes God due to his desire to be needed. He never had to put temptation in that Garden to be needed. He could have made himself a part of that garden and interacted directly, but he opted for a dramatic soap opera.

 

 

God does not tempt beings to do sin. God tests beings, He says obey Him (not to be a pain but because He knows what is right) and if one doesn't then one faces the consequences.

 

Why would a parent tell their children to respect them and to love their siblings? It's for peace's sake, is it not? And where there is peace love and like reigns. What happens to children whose parents never let them be accountable for their bad actions? Also, why do parents sit down and explain rules to children who are old enough to understand? Is it because they want them to understand that it's for their own emotional and possibly physical safety?

 

What was the purpose of the tree of life? According to the bible who caused the sun to shine? Who gives each human the breath of life everyday? Who gives them strength?

 

 

What do you think was the purpose of the tree of life?

 

 

 

God is needed because He does not have derived life but created beings do!

OMFG I'm sorry, but I appreciate the spontaneous laugh I so enjoy from this site.

 

You literally believe that God's TESTING of beings isn't temptation. That's fucking hilarious! I think I don't even need to go there.

 

That's gonna make a GREAT bumpersticker! LMAO

 

Okay, okay. I'm done with that...**still laughing, sorry**

 

 

 

 

I would recommend you go look up the show "Bait Car" and see how it can be compared with God's actions with the tree of knowledge.

 

Testing is not the same as tempting. The evil desires were there and a physical object EXPOSES the evil desires.

 

God TESTS but Satan TEMPTS (tells people to disobey the commandments) and then rats out people after he gets them to fall.

God knew in advance what was going to go down but He had a contingency plan. He loves us and wants us to COMPREHEND why His rules are needed hence the reason He placed the tree there.

 

 

Thumbelina said: What do you think was the purpose of the tree of life?

 

 

Ummm, I wasn't speaking on the tree of life...unless that is just one of a gazillion names it has been translated into. Last I checked, my post referred to knowledge of good and evil...THAT tree....which...I thought...gave... ummm KNOWLEDGE....

 

Your purple argument is confusing. Adam and Eve weren't going to rebel...UNLESS they ate from that tree... so technically, God didn't have to give freewill in His garden to keep the peace...that was already guaran-damn-teed to begin with. He put the tree there to force a choice that really didn't have to be forced...because, everything was already perfect....thus the only need for said choice was to feel NEEDED.

 

The tree of life is DIFFERENT from the tree of knowledge. Adam and Eve had to eat from it in order to live forever which is why God kicked them out after they sinned, He did not want to perpetuate sin. You said they did not need God but God OWNS everything including the tree of life which they NEEDED to live. God in His mercy then gave them vegetables so they can still be strong but before sin they did not need vegetables. I did not say they weren't going to rebel, I said that the tree allowed sin to manifest itself so we can understand why it is hideous. Will you like to be forced into a marriage? God did not want to force humans and they STILL have a choice, life with Him or death, nothingness, non existence. God does not need us but He loves us and He wants us to be happy and true happinesss comes from a radical dependence on Him.

Whether they ate from the tree of life is not known, but I do know after they were kicked out, god blocked the gate with an angel to that very tree. I think you are extrapolating more than what is actually said. Typical. Testing someone IS tempting. Tempting is not necessarily a negative thing. BUT, since you wear your religious goggles to the point they have molded in to your brain, you immediately associate tempt with satan and test with god without any fair rationale on the matter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The bible implies that they did eat from the tree of life. Just because it does not say so explicitly does not mean that one can't put the pieces of the puzzle together.

 

Does the bible explicitly say "Thou shalt not sniff cocaine"? No. The bible outlines certain principles to guide us and God gave us reasoning capacities and with a WILLINGNESS to yield to the Spirit one can then understand simple things and the deep things , whereas surface readers won't see squat.

 

 

Let's not quibble. Temptation generally has a negative connotation though it may sometimes be used positively:

 

 

Temptation is the desire to perform an action that one may enjoy immediately or in the short term but will probably later regret for various reasons: legal, social, psychological (including feeling guilt), health-related, economic, etc. In the context of religion, temptation is the inclination to sin. Temptation also describes the coaxing or inducing a person into committing such an act, by manipulation or otherwise of curiosity, desire or fear of loss.

 

 

 

In the CONTEXT that I was writing that IS what I meant. God does not EVER tempt beings to sin (transgress His law). Did you look at "Bait Car"? Are you saying that placing a nice car to TEST potential criminals is wrong? You know your reasoning can give a rapist an alibi: 'She tempted me with her seductive clothes so I could not resist raping her.' 'That baby was so cute and its pampers were so tight that I could not resist molesting it.'

 

 

 

I contemplate the Word on a regular basis and it proves itself to be true.

[Thumbelina]

Well, i still see, my general point even if not argued very well, still left unchallenged. If god despised sin and evil so bad, then if that god was logical he would prevent any opportunity for it to pop up. The god of the bible didn't, he loved his own need for, companionship more then he hated sin. That, as far as the bible god goes, sounds to me, self contradictory particularly considering how supposedly he can't tolerate the presence of sin even thought he allowed Satan to walk into heaven and make a bet with him.

 

You are saying that you would rather not exist? Sin started because God gave created beings the ability to use their will. Sin could have started with any one of us or with any other created being. God has NO fear so why would He let sin stop Him from creating? I'm glad for the opportunity to live forever therefore I'm glad God did not wuss out because he knew Adam and Eve would follow Satan's in his pointless rebellion. God creates beautiful creatures and any being has the potential to get corrupted by their beauty and delude themself into believing they can usurp God. The love of display tends to lead people to the sin of presumption and that happened to Lucifer and it could have happened to any created being. This trial of sin will eventually cause sin to be abhorred and sin will never ever ever arise again. God wanted/wants His creatures to understand, to know intellectually why sin cannot be tolerated and that His rules can be obeyed, His discourse with Satan was a part of that. Satan is a beast but an all powerful God who is able to resurrect people is not worried about him in the least. Job did not give up on God so why are skeptics always criticizing Him?

Actually with all the crap I have gone thru in my life. The idea of nonexistence when I die, sounds really comforting. And give a choice between a Christian world and not being born. I would have rather not been born.

 

 

 

 

I'm so sorry that life has given you such a hard time sweetie pie but you still have a CHOICE. Do you count whatever blessings you did have? My impression of you has been that he is a sweet guy who's confused, hurting and sometimes overwhelmed. I did see a video that you put up when you were playing a guitar and my thoughts were " Awwww, he even has a cherubic face to match that sweetie pie persona of his." I hope you don't mind me being a little bit subjective with you? It is still a choice though, sin and abandonment of God ALWAYS starts with beings being ungrateful. We all need to learn to count whatever blessings we did have. God permits trials and pain so we can look for something BETTER:

 

 

 

 

I know we are aversed to pain but in the long run many people will realize that they are NOT self sufficient, that they have derived life and ultimately they WILL gain eternal life.

 

 

 

 

 

And you totally missed my point(you seem to have not read this thread either), and did what amounted to a fallacious arguement from authority.

 

Fallacy, schmallacy. I'm not going to go into some long drawn out philosophical debate when the gospel is QUITE simple and all one needs is a WILLINGNESS to understand the bible and they will be given spiritual insight. I cannot prove that God exists. Heck, Adam did not see God create himself nor create Eve and vice versa with Eve. However when one spends time with God and His word He proves Himself to be our Creator and Sustainer. They did that, they saw Him up close and personal and still listened to dumb Satan.

 

 

 

 

 

If god hates sin and evil and is the most perfect moral being of all time, he would prevent the possibility of sin at every possible turn. Why allow the possibility of occurring, that in which you most despise, particularly when you are a god and can have control over such factors?

It would be roughly analogous to a human preventing a murder if he has the chance to prevent one. In fact it seems your defense here, assumes that conclusion. Its actually wrong to prevent evil when possible. After all god didn't do it at his biggest opportunity, so why should we then in the christian worldview? That is a rhetorical question that I am pretty sure you won't get.

And this is not to say, that I am using the problem of evil in the sense that you're expecting. The free will defense just doesn't work within the context of my point. That theodicy justifies gods actions after creation. I am saying that if the god of the bible is logically consistent, there would have never been a creation.

 

Ohh and its not a question of fear either, its a question of his nature as a whole. He could be the most bravest thing in the universe (though free will seems to be something that bullies him alot ) but what I am saying still stands.

 

Also logic is logic. Your going to have to prove what I am saying is wrong somehow.

 

ETA:Fixed some grammer errors and added a few more thoughts.

 

 

 

 

 

The only way God would have done what you suggested (I bolded it) was to not give any choice and to make machines, to make drones like the ants @ :18- :22 in this movie preview:

 

 

 

We are intelligent creatures and not lower life forms, God appeals to our reason. Sin came about because God allows us to have choice:

 

 

 

"If God created free intelligent creatures, is He not responsible in some way for the phenomenon of sin? If He is, then, the atonement would be grounded, not in sacrificial love, but in the divine need to resolve a problem that He Himself created. To address this concern, we must begin with the conviction that the intelligent creatures God brought into existence were good. Since only some of them developed evil desires while others remained loyal to the Creator, we should conclude that evil was not inevitable but that it was directly related to the use of the will. The distinction between nature and will is of great value in seeking an answer to our question. We could say that the nature of His creatures, as originally created by God, was good, but that their use of their will led to sin and evil. In that case, God is responsible for the first but not for the second. The misuse of the will is based on, but not determined by, the freedom with which God invested His intelligent creatures." A. Rodriguez

 

 

 

What I am saying is God can do as He pleases because He is the Creator and He can create ex nihilo, He can resurrect people, He KNOWS the beginning from the end. He can therefore permit evil but created beings can't do that, we need to prevent evil as best we can. God permitted evil to manifest itself so creatures can learn to be aversed to it.

 

 

 

The bible says that the plan of salvation was NOT an afterthought. God knew what would happen one day and He was ready for it. Sin is pointless and a mystery. All the info we have is what the bible says about it and a believer will trust God and He proves that He is right every time! Those who wish to doubt WILL find reasons to do so but it's still a CHOICE.

[Thumbelina]

Recently when discussing the bible and expressing my doubts, I usually begin with the beginning. Every chrisitian is familiar with the part, so its a good place to begin.

 

If God, who is a supremely perfect being, created the angels, and then gave them free will, why would they turn away?

 

 

If sin can be explained then it can be excused. I think you echo the sentiments that sin is POINTLESS and the beings that started it were STUPID and CRAZY.

 

 

 

For starters, God is supposed to be a supremely perfect and intelligent being. Wouldnt he have forseen the rebellion?

 

Of course he foresaw it, He is omniscient.

 

 

And the angels, who were also supposed to be incredibly intelligent, would they really have been foolish enough to turn against their creator?

 

 

 

Yes, they were that foolish, Satan spread his trade and his tail drew 1/3 of the angels. He was a serious brown noser. He peddled his lies and is still doing it today: 'Created beings can be good without God or they are God, we don't need God, Do what thou wilt, YOLO (You Only Live Once), God does not exist' (have you ever had a person who envies or fears you and who pretends that you don't exist?

 

 

 

Supposedly there is no sinning in heaven. Wouldn't Lucifer have sinned by turning away from God?

 

 

 

Who said that there was no sinning in heaven? Our sins are recorded in heaven and sin (the transgression of God's Law) did begin there so pristine heaven was tainted because God permitted freedom of CHOICE. So yes, sin began in heaven! Where there is no choice there is no love. God is love so He gave created beings the choice not to love and worship Him. God does not believe in shotgun weddings (the church is His bride).

 

 

Its scary how many questions turn up within the first few chapters. Moving to Adam and Eve. Would God have really planted the tree of knowledge in the garden of eden?

 

 

Yup! That was His way of giving them a choice. Do they want to live forever with Him or do they want to die, to go back to nothingness and not live forever?

 

The beings that started it were stupid and crazy? I think you're mistaken. They were angels. Lucifer was the highest ranking angel. No way was he simply "stupid and crazy."

 

 

 

 

Don't you know people who have high IQs and yet make BAD moral choices? That makes them stupid/foolish, even more so because they are so intelligent.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You say God is omnicient. Then he forsees everything. Then what was the point of him giving free will? He knew exactly what would happen, who would turn away, who wouldn't. It doesn't make sense. I don't understand the christian idea of free will. You're saying God gave you free will to choose for yourself, but wait, if you don't choose my way, you're going to suffer for eternity? Doesn't really seem like a choice to me.

 

 

God gave freedom of choice so creatures can use their will to CHOOSE to live forever OR die (go back into oblivion and NOT stay alive forever being tortured). God is also on trial, He wants Created beings to understand why He has His commandments, that for there to be peace in the universe we have to obey Him IMPLICITLY.

 

 

 

 

 

You say Satan was a brown noser? Oh he just floated up to other angels and kissed their ass until they turned away from God?

 

Yes, yes and yes!

 

 

 

 

 

 

highrishman said: Come on, Satan was an angel. He just suddenly turned evil and wants all our souls because he has free will?

 

 

 

He's a malevolent sicko and he IS going to die but misery likes company and he wants to take down as many people as he can with him and his imps.

 

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

 

Those creatures CHOSE at some point that they no longer wanted to obey God's perfect rules and live so they will eventually get to go back to nothingness.

 

 

 

 

 

highrishman said: So instead of God just allowing them to choose to love him, he said "Don't eat of this tree"? Couldn't they have just chosen to love him? It doesn't make sense.

 

It is written: John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

if a daughter says to her parent she loves them and yet she's bringing a drug dealer home who steals from her parents and who has other girlfriends beside her, some of them prostitutes. The girl knows this and she's hurting her parents, she also insults her younger sister and exposes her to danger. Is her actions showing that she loves her parents?

 

Should the parents lock her in a room and hire bodyguards to prevent the boyfriend from getting to her so she can obey them that way; or should they kick her out and let her face the consequences of her actions even though it pains them to do so?

 

Sometimes parents have to practice tough love and maybe one day it will dawn on that young lady that her choices leads to pain and her parents were right after all.

[Thumbelina]

After doing a little research, Revalations 21:4 states there will be no death, sorrow, crying, pain. Revalations 21:8 goes on to say the sinful are not in heaven, but in the lake of fire. Even further more, Revalations 21:27 says nothing impure will enter heaven. This implies to me that heaven is supposed to be a pure, holy place. Meaning there would be no sin. Therefore satan could not have sinned.

 

 

 

What tense were those verses written in; was it past tense or future tense? The whole universe got some of our taint of sin because they witnessed our and Satan's rebellion. Please read Revelation 21 in context, don't isolate texts to make the bible seem contradictory. God says He WILL make things NEW.

 

Don't worry fella, Habakkuk had the same type of questions you have: "Your eyes are too pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate wrong. Why then do you tolerate the treacherous? Why are you silent while the wicked swallow up those more righteous than themselves?" Hab 1:13

God wasn't supposed to see sin or be around it but He permitted it for a purpose. It was NOT His expressed will for creatures to sin. If you search for God with ALL your heart you WILL find Him.

 

 

I also wanted to add that if God is omniscient, and he forsaw the entire events that will unfold throughout creation, then in essence he would be the creator of sin. If he knew that Eve would give into temptation, and he put the tree there anyways, then for all purposes of this argument, God created sin. Not to mention, if he forsaw everything that ever will or has happened, then where does free will come into play? If God knows everything that will happen, then that's assuming everything is predetermined, meaning there is no such thing as free will. It's contradictory. It's a paradox really.

 

 

 

I keep saying God made His creatures good but He allows freedom of choice and therefore the possibility for sin, deviating from God's will/law was there.

 

 

You also never answered my question of where God goes when he's not observing this world. He obviously wasn't present when Satan tempted Eve.

 

Biblical nuances are lost to skeptics and surface readers. God is omnipresent, sometimes He unveils Himself and sometimes He doesn't. These are some words used to describe God's presence or coming:

 

 

PAROUSIA.(3952) Presence

 

APOKALUPSIS.(602) unveiling

 

EPIPHANEIA.(2015) manifestation or brightness

 

PHANEROO.(5319) to make manifest, not necessarily a visible presence, but a perception.

 

ERCHOMAI.(2064) the actual act of coming

 

When you were little and told not to eat the cookie from the jar did you wait till your parent was out of sight to steal one; or were you bold enough to take it anyway with your parent right there? Maybe your parent was out of your sight but was watching you to see if you would obey? If the parent stayed glued to your side in order to prevent you stealing it shows a lack of trust and that you may have wrong intentions and just a lack of opportunity to carry out the bad deed. God KNEW exactly what He was doing. He knew their hearts whereas angels had no way of knowing unless they actually saw them do a crime.

 

 

 

 

 

Or else he could've had the power to prevent those events that cursed all of mankind forever. He could've stopped Satan right there. God is divine, and loves us so much he wouldn't allow anything bad to happen right? Well then, why did he allow Satan to have dominion over mankind?

 

 

Mankind is cursed temporarily. You did note that there will be more more death, crying, pain ... . Sin and perpetual sinners WILL be destroyed; death/oblivion is their wage, they earned it. The bible is consistent in its teachings. Satan had/has TEMPORARY dominion because Adam and Eve CHOSE to give their allegiance to him. However Jesus booted Satan out at the cross. Jesus became the second Adam and Satan is no longer vicegerent of this world. Satan was a temporary vicegerent before the cross (see Job chapter 2). Satan was boasting that most folk listen to him as vicegerent and NOT God but God let Him know that He does have folk who will NOT give their allegiance to him (Satan)

 

 

hirishman said: Finally, I'd like to point out that christians ALWAYS assume that atheists either read the bible, but didn't understand it,

 

 

 

Some may understand the simple things but if they understood the deep things they will not be atheists. If they understand the deep things and are still atheists then they are fools (not my word, the bible's). If they, like Satan, fully understand the gospel and reject it then they are stupid. I think a lot of atheists do not understand.

 

 

 

hirishman said: or we weren't truely saved by the blood of christ, or something along those lines.

 

Not a human's call to judge that.

 

 

 

hirishman said:I can assure you that I, as well as many others here (from what I've seen), that I was a bible-thumping christian who was positive I was going to heaven. I studied with people highly versed in the bible. My grandfather is even a preacher. So don't assume that I don't or never understood the bible.

 

 

Well you did not PERPETUALLY assimilate it, otherwise you won't have gone astray, now would ya?

I am being OBJECTIVE here, the Pharisees were well learned and they were plotting murder and justifying their actions. I said that to say this, well learned people can make wrong moral choices, Paul ADMITTED that he did and he REPENTED. Also a lot of times people may be mistaken about certain teachings, Paul admitted that he was wrong in this area too.

[Thumbelina]

But, I'm only 24, so I've got lots of life left to live for me.

 

Tomorrow is PROMISED to you? You think those people who died by being struck by lighhtening this summer shared your sentiments?

[highrishman]

But, I'm only 24, so I've got lots of life left to live for me.

 

Tomorrow is PROMISED to you? You think those people who died by being struck by lighhtening this summer shared your sentiments?

 

So you're saying heaven is of this universe? That doesn't seem right. That would mean heaven would have properties similar to the observable universe, and that wouldn't seem right. God would've had to create the universe externally right? And I'm not sure, but I'd think that if God will make things NEW, why didn't he make it right in the first place? If a perfect being created it, he wouldn't have need of a second chanceto make things "new."

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/44259-please-forgive-me/ As far as your comment of those seeking god with all their hearts will find him, I offer this. Please, tell Margee how she didn't "do it right."

 

God giving us free will to choose as we will doesn't answer my proposed question. How can a God be omniscient, meaning he knows everything about creation before it's created, yet still allow free will? If God knows what will happen before it happens, then that means everything is pre-determined. God knew the outcome. If God knows the outcome, he could've skipped all of this and just went ahead and sent those of us he KNEW would rebel to hell right then and there. There's no point in giving us a choice if he already knows what we'll choose.

 

You said: Sin and perpetual sinners WILL be destroyed; death/oblivion is their wage, they earned it. You just admitted that it's a curse. According to the bible I'm a sinner by birth. So let's say I died a baby. You're telling my I earned death and eternal torment? Yea, really loving.

 

And there you go again, telling me I never assimilated that lifestyle. Tell me more about what I believe, and who I am. Gotta run, work break is over.

[highrishman]

Thumbalina says: Dont you know people who have high IQs and still make bad moral choices?

 

Were talking about the highest ranking angel here, not some petty human with a collage degree. He was standing in the presence of the creator of the entire universe, and even satan himself. Please keep in mind that the bible says that a human being could not even look upon the face of god and survive. And youre telling me that thos devil simply decided one day to turn against God? It is not plausible.

 

And by the way, of cpurse tomorrow is not guaranteed. But im hopeful that ill live a long fulfilled life. Should i have said "well, i might die tomorrow, so whats the point of living today?"

 

Here is a new question. So since satan was granted free will to choose to love God right? Well, id say that means he still has free will. What if he repented and asked gpd for forgiveness? after all, God loves his creation, and hes infinotely merciful AND forgiving. So what would happen to this universe then?

[highrishman]

Please forgive me if im spamming, but my tablet doesnt seem to like this site, so its a bit difficult to type and edit properly. Anyways thumbelina, would god forgive satan?

[Deva]

You still here Thumbelina? Why don't you just give it up?

 

God will make it right someday. A lot of promises and pie in the sky.

[centauri]

...Heck, Adam did not see God create himself nor create Eve and vice versa with Eve. However when one spends time with God and His word He proves Himself to be our Creator and Sustainer. They did that, they saw Him up close and personal and still listened to dumb Satan.

Satan is never mentioned in the Book of Genesis.

Eve listened to a talking serpent that was later cursed to crawl on its belly.

There is nothing in Genesis that says Satan was this creature.

 

We are intelligent creatures and not lower life forms, God appeals to our reason. Sin came about because God allows us to have choice:

 

"If God created free intelligent creatures, is He not responsible in some way for the phenomenon of sin? If He is, then, the atonement would be grounded, not in sacrificial love, but in the divine need to resolve a problem that He Himself created. To address this concern, we must begin with the conviction that the intelligent creatures God brought into existence were good. Since only some of them developed evil desires while others remained loyal to the Creator, we should conclude that evil was not inevitable but that it was directly related to the use of the will. The distinction between nature and will is of great value in seeking an answer to our question. We could say that the nature of His creatures, as originally created by God, was good, but that their use of their will led to sin and evil. In that case, God is responsible for the first but not for the second. The misuse of the will is based on, but not determined by, the freedom with which God invested His intelligent creatures." A. Rodriguez

Evil was created by God, not humans. (Isa 45:7)

God has a track record of manipulating some humans to perform certain acts or make certain decisions. Pharaoh and the King of Heshbon are two prime examples.

Contrary to the apologetic you quoted, God is directly responsible for not only the existence of evil, but for the behavior and decisions of certain people.

The apologetic completely ignores the issue of predestination, which the Bible clearly says God engages in.

Predestined means that God determines the outcome ahead of time, human will has nothing to do with it.

As Eph 1:4-5,11 declares, God predestines at least some people to their beliefs according to his will, not their will.

You aren't in a position to know who or how much of any person's life has been predestined by God.

You can't claim some sort of magical universal free choice exists when the Bible, the alleged source for truth, contradicts such a notion.

 

God permitted evil to manifest itself so creatures can learn to be aversed to it.

He not only permits evil, he creates it.

 

Isa 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

[Guest Valk0010]

Thumb

 

 

Just that comment about, a fallacy, shows your not rational at all. You don't care about the truth. If you can't prove that god exists, don't waste your time with me.

 

There is no possible way, you can justify, that god and remain moral.

 

God is Stalin, God is hitler. He is no different then the devil himself.

 

As they say by your fruits you shall be known, his fruits suck ass. Narcissism.

 

Think about it!!! Oh wait you don't think.

 

A god that is supposedly the epitome of goodness, is somehow still good for permitting evil, or more accurately creating it.

 

How many murders occured pre creation of man? None. How many rapes? None. How many lies? None.

 

If the god of the bible is good, then he can not have created this world because he created evil.

 

He created evil by doing anything at all. He understood, what could happen do to his actions and the suffering it would cause.

 

Even if indirectly, he created evil. He is a monster.

 

I am not sure if you like horror movies. But look up the movie saw. Its a perfect example of how your justifying a monster.

 

The premise of the movie was, this guy(John kramer) wanted to teach humanity a lesson. The lesson was how to survive. So he would capture other humans and put them into tests where they would sometimes have to harm themselves or harm and kill others to survive.

 

Essentially you make out god to be John Kramer like character and you call it good.

 

We didn't ask to be created, and we didn't ask for the circumstances. If there is a god, he is responsible for our actions because we are playing the hand he has dealt for us.

 

And if he couldn't do any better then this hand, if he was as moral as he tries to claim in the bible, then he would not have created us. The hater of evil, would have avoided evil. The author of logic, should be logical.

 

Creating the opportunity for evil is the same as creating evil in my book. You create willingly, the possibility for someone to murder, rape, lie etc, you create evil.

 

Again. How can someone despise sin and evil and yet create a opportunity for it to happen?

 

Its nonsense and its evil.

 

The logic of your position is absurd. Authority alone is not enough for correctness. Might does not make right. If the god you believe exist, actually does, he is no better then a pyschopath.

 

And somehow you call it good.

 

I don't think I will ever understand that level of delusion.

 

Ohh btw(libertarian free will) which christians love, is a nonsense position. But even if it wasn't, it still doesn't change the fact that a omnipotent god could create a human, only capable of free choice of good actions. Its still free will.

[centauri]

I keep saying God made His creatures good but He allows freedom of choice and therefore the possibility for sin, deviating from God's will/law was there.

Yes, you keep repeating a doctrine that the Bible undermines.

Clay pots don't have universal choice, the potter determines the outcome.

 

Rom 9:16-18

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

 

God manipulates at least some outcomes according to his will and purpose.

The will of the pot is irrelevant, the potter is in charge.

 

The bible is consistent in its teachings. Satan had/has TEMPORARY dominion because Adam and Eve CHOSE to give their allegiance to him. However Jesus booted Satan out at the cross.

No, it is not consistent.

There is nothing in the Old Testament that says Eve chose Satan.

Nor is there anything that says salvation requires faith in an illegal human sacrifice.

 

Some may understand the simple things but if they understood the deep things they will not be atheists. If they understand the deep things and are still atheists then they are fools (not my word, the bible's). If they, like Satan, fully understand the gospel and reject it then they are stupid. I think a lot of atheists do not understand.

Jews also reject the gospel.

Are they stupid and fools as well?

[highrishman]

well said centauri. you know youre stuff.

[TheBluegrassSkeptic]

I was in a discussion about this the other day, but the original question asked why didn't god create an environment for things to exist without having to feed upon one another. Of course, all the religious on the thread responded,"Why don't you tell us what a fair system would have been?" Which really didn't do anything to add to the discussion. One person did pipe up that because of The Fall, that is why we now have the self sustaining system we have, and that prior to the event, everything was vegan. Essentially, he claims that this is still a fantastic system, and all because of The Fall, God at least still gave us an environment to be sustained upon abundantly.

Well, I tackled the whole why-don't-you-tell-us-what-a-fair-system-would-have-been side step.

Here's my thing. First of all, the system was already perfect prior to The Fall, thus the system was fair and sustainable. God decided to allow sin to be introduced into his Eden. It wasn't just the serpent. It was that conspicuous Tree of Knowledge He insisted on putting there to begin with. If a snake could convince these to dipshits to eat it, I'm sure walking by it would have had the same effect after awhile. So, why put that tree in there? Well, like many xtians have said, God wanted to give us a choice. That immediately denotes temptation on God's part being purposely placed in His garden. Now, finally, why would a deity, demand free choice of love? He is still extorting acceptance through sentence of pain and suffering? I'll tell you why.

Perfection in Eden made God unnecessary. Period.

If He never put the tree in there, he would have not been needed. It has nothing to do with freewill to love. This place was so perfect and self-sustained, God was cancelled out.

For me, Eden alone refutes God due to his desire to be needed. He never had to put temptation in that Garden to be needed. He could have made himself a part of that garden and interacted directly, but he opted for a dramatic soap opera.

 

 

God does not tempt beings to do sin. God tests beings, He says obey Him (not to be a pain but because He knows what is right) and if one doesn't then one faces the consequences.

 

Why would a parent tell their children to respect them and to love their siblings? It's for peace's sake, is it not? And where there is peace love and like reigns. What happens to children whose parents never let them be accountable for their bad actions? Also, why do parents sit down and explain rules to children who are old enough to understand? Is it because they want them to understand that it's for their own emotional and possibly physical safety?

 

What was the purpose of the tree of life? According to the bible who caused the sun to shine? Who gives each human the breath of life everyday? Who gives them strength?

 

 

What do you think was the purpose of the tree of life?

 

 

 

God is needed because He does not have derived life but created beings do!

OMFG I'm sorry, but I appreciate the spontaneous laugh I so enjoy from this site.

 

You literally believe that God's TESTING of beings isn't temptation. That's fucking hilarious! I think I don't even need to go there.

 

That's gonna make a GREAT bumpersticker! LMAO

 

Okay, okay. I'm done with that...**still laughing, sorry**

 

 

 

 

I would recommend you go look up the show "Bait Car" and see how it can be compared with God's actions with the tree of knowledge.

 

Testing is not the same as tempting. The evil desires were there and a physical object EXPOSES the evil desires.

 

God TESTS but Satan TEMPTS (tells people to disobey the commandments) and then rats out people after he gets them to fall.

God knew in advance what was going to go down but He had a contingency plan. He loves us and wants us to COMPREHEND why His rules are needed hence the reason He placed the tree there.

 

 

Thumbelina said: What do you think was the purpose of the tree of life?

 

 

Ummm, I wasn't speaking on the tree of life...unless that is just one of a gazillion names it has been translated into. Last I checked, my post referred to knowledge of good and evil...THAT tree....which...I thought...gave... ummm KNOWLEDGE....

 

Your purple argument is confusing. Adam and Eve weren't going to rebel...UNLESS they ate from that tree... so technically, God didn't have to give freewill in His garden to keep the peace...that was already guaran-damn-teed to begin with. He put the tree there to force a choice that really didn't have to be forced...because, everything was already perfect....thus the only need for said choice was to feel NEEDED.

 

The tree of life is DIFFERENT from the tree of knowledge. Adam and Eve had to eat from it in order to live forever which is why God kicked them out after they sinned, He did not want to perpetuate sin. You said they did not need God but God OWNS everything including the tree of life which they NEEDED to live. God in His mercy then gave them vegetables so they can still be strong but before sin they did not need vegetables. I did not say they weren't going to rebel, I said that the tree allowed sin to manifest itself so we can understand why it is hideous. Will you like to be forced into a marriage? God did not want to force humans and they STILL have a choice, life with Him or death, nothingness, non existence. God does not need us but He loves us and He wants us to be happy and true happinesss comes from a radical dependence on Him.

Whether they ate from the tree of life is not known, but I do know after they were kicked out, god blocked the gate with an angel to that very tree. I think you are extrapolating more than what is actually said. Typical. Testing someone IS tempting. Tempting is not necessarily a negative thing. BUT, since you wear your religious goggles to the point they have molded in to your brain, you immediately associate tempt with satan and test with god without any fair rationale on the matter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The bible implies that they did eat from the tree of life. Just because it does not say so explicitly does not mean that one can't put the pieces of the puzzle together.

 

Does the bible explicitly say "Thou shalt not sniff cocaine"? No. The bible outlines certain principles to guide us and God gave us reasoning capacities and with a WILLINGNESS to yield to the Spirit one can then understand simple things and the deep things , whereas surface readers won't see squat.

 

 

Let's not quibble. Temptation generally has a negative connotation though it may sometimes be used positively:

 

 

Temptation is the desire to perform an action that one may enjoy immediately or in the short term but will probably later regret for various reasons: legal, social, psychological (including feeling guilt), health-related, economic, etc. In the context of religion, temptation is the inclination to sin. Temptation also describes the coaxing or inducing a person into committing such an act, by manipulation or otherwise of curiosity, desire or fear of loss.

 

 

 

In the CONTEXT that I was writing that IS what I meant. God does not EVER tempt beings to sin (transgress His law). Did you look at "Bait Car"? Are you saying that placing a nice car to TEST potential criminals is wrong? You know your reasoning can give a rapist an alibi: 'She tempted me with her seductive clothes so I could not resist raping her.' 'That baby was so cute and its pampers were so tight that I could not resist molesting it.'

 

 

 

I contemplate the Word on a regular basis and it proves itself to be true.

C'mon. You damn well know God tempted Abraham. Genesis 22. Read your fucking book. No matter which version of the story you read, God tempted Abraham, and the word used is tempt. . I know you are going to scream the translators made an error, but Hebrew has many different versions of the workd tempt...inluding it's base meaning in Hebrew of TEST. Drop the semantics game already. The Hebrews considered what God did as a temptation...a test....As I am trying to explain, tempt and test, especially in ancient history, are very very similar. To say that God doesn't tempt us, but he might lead us into it as a test? Essentially, God has lead us into a constant test against temptation since he created it to begin with....

 

God needs to be needed. You can run on implications. Implying something you perceive doesn't make it true. If you are implying the ate from they Tree of Life, then they should still be alive. You are making a lot of assumptions. Most biblical scholars agree the Tree of Life makes you immortal, thus you do not need to have continuous consumption of said fruit. If they had already eaten from a tree that would make them immortal, God would not have put an angel in place to block their accessing the tree. This shows they were mortal to begin with and this how our life cycle's end is explained. Because of their sin they couldn't eat it.

 

BUT, I understand you know more than the majority of concensus by biblical scholars.

[bornagainathiest]

Hmmm.... so it seems that with Thumbelina we have a Young Earth Creationist who refuses to present any extra-Biblical evidence for a Young Earth?

 

Yep.

All we get is the official party line...

 

6. Creation:

God is Creator of all things, and has revealed in Scripture the authentic account of His creative activity. In six days the Lord made "the heaven and the earth" and all living things upon the earth, and rested on the seventh day of that first week. Thus He established the Sabbath as a perpetual memorial of His completed creative work. The first man and woman were made in the image of God as the crowning work of Creation, given dominion over the world, and charged with responsibility to care for it. When the world was finished it was ``very good,'' declaring the glory of God. (Gen. 1; 2; Ex. 20:8-11; Ps. 19:1-6; 33:6, 9; 104; Heb. 11:3.)

 

...from here, http://www.adventist...ntal/index.html

 

Thumbelina's mantra on what is truth sounds like this... "The Bible explains itself." So, all we need to know about God's 6-day Creation is contained within the Bible. Nothing else is needed or wanted. The Bible is the one and only self-referencing source of ultimate truth about reality.

 

Got that?

 

BAA.

[highrishman]

Well folks, I think we've hit a wall here. Either she's stumped, or she's studying that bible right now looking for a new answer. Or both.

 

On a side note, I presented my most recent question (would god forgive satan? Satan has free will, and god is infinitely forgiving and merciful after all) to a very well versed Christian friend, whom I respect greatly, and his reply was par for the course. He said "we have revelation, which shows how it all ends, so we know Satan will never repent." There were a million responses I could've replied with, but I just smiled and said "OK." Out of respect. I should add that he knows I have doubts, but I haven't yet told him I gave up Christianity. I plan to in the near future when he asks me to go to bible study again with him. I have a feeling he and his family will stop associating with me after that, at least mostly. At first I was bothered by that. Now I kind of feel like its their loss.

[mymistake]

Well folks, I think we've hit a wall here. Either she's stumped, or she's studying that bible right now looking for a new answer. Or both.

 

Actually that is her pattern. She will wait a while and then start the whole thing over again in a new post. Exact same pattern. Same lame excuses. Same pathetic insults. The exact same silence when others point out why she is wrong. And then she will do it again.

 

On a side note, I presented my most recent question (would god forgive satan? Satan has free will, and god is infinitely forgiving and merciful after all) to a very well versed Christian friend, whom I respect greatly, and his reply was par for the course. He said "we have revelation, which shows how it all ends, so we know Satan will never repent." There were a million responses I could've replied with, but I just smiled and said "OK." Out of respect. I should add that he knows I have doubts, but I haven't yet told him I gave up Christianity. I plan to in the near future when he asks me to go to bible study again with him. I have a feeling he and his family will stop associating with me after that, at least mostly. At first I was bothered by that. Now I kind of feel like its their loss.

 

It's sad what the religion does to people. I'm glad I don't suffer from it anymore.

[midniterider]

there must have already been sin ...

 

 

Yup, sin began in heaven. Some speculate that Jesus was about to create this planet and humans which stirred up Satan's ENVY. A silly created being with derived life wanted to create things ex nihilo and he envied Jesus royally and so started his rebellion.

 

The whole religion is speculation.

[midniterider]

Well, i still see, my general point even if not argued very well, still left unchallenged. If god despised sin and evil so bad, then if that god was logical he would prevent any opportunity for it to pop up. The god of the bible didn't, he loved his own need for, companionship more then he hated sin. That, as far as the bible god goes, sounds to me, self contradictory particularly considering how supposedly he can't tolerate the presence of sin even thought he allowed Satan to walk into heaven and make a bet with him.

 

You are saying that you would rather not exist? Sin started because God gave created beings the ability to use their will. Sin could have started with any one of us or with any other created being. God has NO fear so why would He let sin stop Him from creating? I'm glad for the opportunity to live forever therefore I'm glad God did not wuss out because he knew Adam and Eve would follow Satan's in his pointless rebellion. God creates beautiful creatures and any being has the potential to get corrupted by their beauty and delude themself into believing they can usurp God. The love of display tends to lead people to the sin of presumption and that happened to Lucifer and it could have happened to any created being. This trial of sin will eventually cause sin to be abhorred and sin will never ever ever arise again. God wanted/wants His creatures to understand, to know intellectually why sin cannot be tolerated and that His rules can be obeyed, His discourse with Satan was a part of that. Satan is a beast but an all powerful God who is able to resurrect people is not worried about him in the least. Job did not give up on God so why are skeptics always criticizing Him?

 

Biblegod fears his creations not loving him. In the bible, biblegod says he is a jealous god. See jealousy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jealousy.

[midniterider]

 

 

Darlin'! You know I miss you but not your craziness. I hope you get insight into these things and soon. I still don't want Luci' to get you.

 

Luci, I'm hommmmmmme!

[midniterider]

 

 

Darlin'! You know I miss you but not your craziness. I hope you get insight into these things and soon. I still don't want Luci' to get you.

And it's always a delight to have a believer visit the forum and impart divine truth to all the skeptics.

I especially enjoy being smeared as one who engages in "craziness".

For the sake of lurkers, please explain why my initial response to your answers on Satan and sin represents "craziness".

Please explain why pointing out things that conflict with your version of "truth" is misguided and shows a lack of insight on my part.

 

Because all you tend to do is make God out to be malevolent so you can delude yourself into believing he may not exist, ya chicken ya! (to lurkers, I bug Centauri and he's a good sport about it too). There's none so blind as those who do not wish to see. You are able to see a loving God if you WANT to.

 

Anyone can pretend to see anything they want in their own imagination. They can see god, invisible pink unicorns, flying spaghetti monsters, etc. Just imagine it is real and make sure you convince yourself by telling everyone at exchristian.net how real he is.

[midniterider]

I was in a discussion about this the other day, but the original question asked why didn't god create an environment for things to exist without having to feed upon one another. Of course, all the religious on the thread responded,"Why don't you tell us what a fair system would have been?" Which really didn't do anything to add to the discussion. One person did pipe up that because of The Fall, that is why we now have the self sustaining system we have, and that prior to the event, everything was vegan. Essentially, he claims that this is still a fantastic system, and all because of The Fall, God at least still gave us an environment to be sustained upon abundantly.

 

Well, I tackled the whole why-don't-you-tell-us-what-a-fair-system-would-have-been side step.

 

Here's my thing. First of all, the system was already perfect prior to The Fall, thus the system was fair and sustainable. God decided to allow sin to be introduced into his Eden. It wasn't just the serpent. It was that conspicuous Tree of Knowledge He insisted on putting there to begin with. If a snake could convince these to dipshits to eat it, I'm sure walking by it would have had the same effect after awhile. So, why put that tree in there? Well, like many xtians have said, God wanted to give us a choice. That immediately denotes temptation on God's part being purposely placed in His garden. Now, finally, why would a deity, demand free choice of love? He is still extorting acceptance through sentence of pain and suffering? I'll tell you why.

 

Perfection in Eden made God unnecessary. Period.

 

If He never put the tree in there, he would have not been needed. It has nothing to do with freewill to love. This place was so perfect and self-sustained, God was cancelled out.

 

For me, Eden alone refutes God due to his desire to be needed. He never had to put temptation in that Garden to be needed. He could have made himself a part of that garden and interacted directly, but he opted for a dramatic soap opera.

 

Good points! I thought it was interesting that god would put a Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil out there in the garden among two people who don't yet have that knowledge and then expect them not to partake of it. Derrrr. Why would someone who didn't know any better pay attention to some arbitrary rule? Could be a reason why we dont leave loaded handguns on the couch when you have a 2 year old child and tell them "Dont touch that." If you love your child you don't introduce temptation that could result in harm or death. So why would god get all bent with Adam and Eve unless god was an idiot? It is an ignorant story written by ignorant men.

[midniterider]

 

Fallacy, schmallacy. I'm not going to go into some long drawn out philosophical debate when the gospel is QUITE simple and all one needs is a WILLINGNESS to understand the bible and they will be given spiritual insight. I cannot prove that God exists. Heck, Adam did not see God create himself nor create Eve and vice versa with Eve. However when one spends time with God and His word He proves Himself to be our Creator and Sustainer. They did that, they saw Him up close and personal and still listened to dumb Satan.

 

Actually that is incorrect. Prior to belief, life was just fine. After eliminating the guilt, fear and shame that Jesus Christ gave to me life was just fine once again. Life as a non-believer is always better because christianity is an obessessive compulsive disorder.

[highrishman]

Well folks, I think we've hit a wall here. Either she's stumped, or she's studying that bible right now looking for a new answer. Or both.

 

Actually that is her pattern. She will wait a while and then start the whole thing over again in a new post. Exact same pattern. Same lame excuses. Same pathetic insults. The exact same silence when others point out why she is wrong. And then she will do it again.

 

On a side note, I presented my most recent question (would god forgive satan? Satan has free will, and god is infinitely forgiving and merciful after all) to a very well versed Christian friend, whom I respect greatly, and his reply was par for the course. He said "we have revelation, which shows how it all ends, so we know Satan will never repent." There were a million responses I could've replied with, but I just smiled and said "OK." Out of respect. I should add that he knows I have doubts, but I haven't yet told him I gave up Christianity. I plan to in the near future when he asks me to go to bible study again with him. I have a feeling he and his family will stop associating with me after that, at least mostly. At first I was bothered by that. Now I kind of feel like its their loss.

 

It's sad what the religion does to people. I'm glad I don't suffer from it anymore.

 

Same here. Just the past few months I've been free, but it's felt great. I was elated the moment I let it all go.

[midniterider]

But, I'm only 24, so I've got lots of life left to live for me.

 

Tomorrow is PROMISED to you? You think those people who died by being struck by lighhtening this summer shared your sentiments?

 

Don't be a fear monger. Notice, one and all, how she tries to instill fear, just like a salesman. "Hurry! Hurry! There will never be another deal like this ever again! Limited time only! While supplies last!"

 

Everything was fine before I was born. Everything will be fine after I'm dead. So why stress during life?