blackpudd1n Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Well. Things just got a little harder... my wife suddenly started the cold shoulder today. I've been trying to show her I'm here and that I care and am the same person, but also give her space to think and process everything. She asked me earlier "What about our vows?" I replied that my vow to love her will never change and that I will never leave her. She didn't respond to that but we sat in silence together for awhile. She's now reading some of the material that was linked in my letter to her about why I cant believe in the Bible. She started doing so of her own choosing, so I hope that is a good sign. Your wife has been living with the belief for however long that you are her spiritual authority, the man that god sent to her especially to give her a blessed marriage and be a "good christian husband". You losing your faith wasn't meant to happen. Her whole world has just been turned upside down. She's bound to be wondering why god allowed this to happen to her, and also wondering if god is testing her faith. There's a good chance she may well be blaming herself, too, wondering if it is her fault that this has happened. Did she not pray enough? Does she have sin in her life that she has not repented of? In some ways, I think losing faith rocks a woman harder than a man, simply because we were subjugated and told to be submissive for so long, to so many different people around us. It's got to be hard on you, too- I doubt you want your wife to be in submission to you, and would prefer her to be your equal. All the rules have changed on your wife, and it's going to take some time for her to process everything. Stay in touch, keep us updated. Hugs, Pudd 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pox Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Your wife thinks there's information that will change your mind, but she just doesn't have it. She lacks confidence in her case, and maybe feels insecure about that. ("If only I were smarter.") She's sure the pastor knows more, because he's a professional and all, so she's calling in reinforcements. My mom's the same way, certain that she just doesn't know enough to convince me. When she does try, which is very seldom, she can tell the only arguments she has are weak. What they don't realize is there just isn't much more than that. Well-schooled pastors can wrap the same arguments up in more complicated packaging, or are better at emotional manipulation, but they don't have the storehouse of secret convincing information my mom and your wife think they do. You know her best, but if you do decide to communicate with the pastor, she may relax because at least she tried everything she could and it's out of her hands. Or, you could encourage her to do some of her own research and see if she can find for herself where you got it wrong and how to convince you. "I'd hate to be wrong about this, sweetheart, so maybe you could double-check my thinking. Read this and see what you think." Might help with the insecurity, because you trust her intelligence and judgement. Might even introduce her to new ideas. Or maybe that would just cause more trouble. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 That writer also seemed to just make shit up as he went along, but claimed that it was all "led by the spirit." And I was led by the spirit to tell you that the writer I'm referring to is Paul. LOLI just hate quoting directly from the bible because it would make me a fundy I guess. I've often been led by spirits....usually Arbor Mist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentknight Posted July 29, 2012 Author Share Posted July 29, 2012 Well. I forwarded the letter to the pastor to help my wife feel better. He hasn't replied, but my wife has been happier today. We did our usual Saturday gaming together and laughed together watching some Tv. She seems ok when shes not thinking about religion too much. Really, I think the hardest part for her is facing her friends at church after this. She doesn't know what to tell them and I don't have any good things for her to.l say either. I'm expecting tomorrow to be a little rough if she goes to church. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentknight Posted July 29, 2012 Author Share Posted July 29, 2012 Pudd, My wife has always had trouble with the idea that women should be subservient (and I always encouraged equailty in our relationship). Nothing annoys her more than when her mother backs down to her step father when she believes her mother is right. Really, in all ways besides being a practicing Christian, she thinks secularly. I think she almost sees religion as some kind of loyalty to her mother. When I was in college in another state and we lived together (pre marriage - scandalous!) she was much more lax about religion. After college we moved into the same area as her mom, and the social aspect of family and friends kindled her faith, but made it harder for me to avoid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roadrunner Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 Im late to the party. I don;t know if you've seen the "Updates with coming out of the closet to spouse" thread. There was a period where a group of us couldnt take it anymore and came clean to our spouses. My wife said the same thing......."but we got married based on that".....BS. We got married because we loved each other and we had SIMILAR priorities, church was just a given in the grand scheme. I hate when they try to say the whole thing is null because it was based on that and now you dont believe anymore. Give it time my friend. I bet even though she doesnt admit it, she loves you more than religion and the initial shock of you telling her what youve said makes her obligated to stand up for god so he will stand up for her. LOL. When in time she sees that you are the same loving husband, she'll let her guard down a little bit and the tension will subside. For some stories of what we've encountered on our journeys like yours, check out posts from macdaddy, churchsucks, thought2much, myself, and electech98. Personally i dont want to live in a mixed house so I make my kids question everything. especially in front of the wife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser01 Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 Im late to the party. I don;t know if you've seen the "Updates with coming out of the closet to spouse" thread. There was a period where a group of us couldnt take it anymore and came clean to our spouses. My wife said the same thing......."but we got married based on that".....BS. We got married because we loved each other and we had SIMILAR priorities, church was just a given in the grand scheme. I hate when they try to say the whole thing is null because it was based on that and now you dont believe anymore. Give it time my friend. I bet even though she doesnt admit it, she loves you more than religion and the initial shock of you telling her what youve said makes her obligated to stand up for god so he will stand up for her. LOL. When in time she sees that you are the same loving husband, she'll let her guard down a little bit and the tension will subside. For some stories of what we've encountered on our journeys like yours, check out posts from macdaddy, churchsucks, thought2much, myself, and electech98. Personally i dont want to live in a mixed house so I make my kids question everything. especially in front of the wife. They will say God first, Family second but in all actuality it holds no real value and they only live it when it suits them, and rarely does it suit them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raoul Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 They will say God first, Family second but in all actuality it holds no real value and they only live it when it suits them, and rarely does it suit them. You've left out the 3rd part of their unholy trinity - country. It's God, country, and family. What a wonderful set of priorities! Then people wonder why their families, in many instances, are so fucked up compared to the normal, non-religious ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raoul Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 Well. Things just got a little harder... my wife suddenly started the cold shoulder today. I've been trying to show her I'm here and that I care and am the same person, but also give her space to think and process everything. She asked me earlier "What about our vows?" I replied that my vow to love her will never change and that I will never leave her. She didn't respond to that but we sat in silence together for awhile. She's now reading some of the material that was linked in my letter to her about why I cant believe in the Bible. She started doing so of her own choosing, so I hope that is a good sign. Your wife has been living with the belief for however long that you are her spiritual authority, the man that god sent to her especially to give her a blessed marriage and be a "good christian husband". You losing your faith wasn't meant to happen. Her whole world has just been turned upside down. She's bound to be wondering why god allowed this to happen to her, and also wondering if god is testing her faith. There's a good chance she may well be blaming herself, too, wondering if it is her fault that this has happened. Did she not pray enough? Does she have sin in her life that she has not repented of? In some ways, I think losing faith rocks a woman harder than a man, simply because we were subjugated and told to be submissive for so long, to so many different people around us. It's got to be hard on you, too- I doubt you want your wife to be in submission to you, and would prefer her to be your equal. All the rules have changed on your wife, and it's going to take some time for her to process everything. Stay in touch, keep us updated. Hugs, Pudd Damn Pudd - you, like Margie, should be a psychologist! I mean it! You just nailed it, so concisely, right on the mark. Great insights on how those kinds of marriages really work. When I began the deconversion thing I made it a point to not press the Kat (wife) about it but she actually offered the info without my prodding. She said something to the effect that while I'd jumped into the xtian fundy crap full steam, she'd never bought into it at all. Her spirituality is one of quietness which is probably the only kind to have. She never pushes her beliefs on anyone, including me and just rolls along life's path no matter where it leads. Thanks again for that insightful observation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akheia Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 Well. I forwarded the letter to the pastor to help my wife feel better. He hasn't replied, but my wife has been happier today. We did our usual Saturday gaming together and laughed together watching some Tv. She seems ok when shes not thinking about religion too much. Really, I think the hardest part for her is facing her friends at church after this. She doesn't know what to tell them and I don't have any good things for her to.l say either. I'm expecting tomorrow to be a little rough if she goes to church. Keep your chin up. Likely she's back from church already, and hopefully you two are having some good face-time. Be careful about allowing others to coerce you into doing unreasonable things. To some extent they're never going to be totally okay or comfortable with the deconversion, and that's on *them* to process and deal with, not on you. You love your wife passionately and dearly, that is very clear. That's why it's important that you draw a distinction between your behavior and her reactions. You're not hurting her, not doing anything that directly impacts her, and she's making some unreasonable demands in the wild hope that she'll reconvert you. Those boundaries need to be drawn and they need to be respected, or you two aren't going to get anywhere. My thinking here: it was not reasonable for her to demand you email the pastor. He has no spiritual authority over you. He has nothing to say to you that you haven't already seen rebutted and refuted a dozen times over. You don't actually *want* to talk to him about anything. But she knows that you have a fear of spiritual authorities and a profound dislike of disagreeing with those above you. Frankly, that was a damned mean card to play against a guy from your background, in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackpudd1n Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 Pudd, My wife has always had trouble with the idea that women should be subservient (and I always encouraged equailty in our relationship). Nothing annoys her more than when her mother backs down to her step father when she believes her mother is right. Really, in all ways besides being a practicing Christian, she thinks secularly. I think she almost sees religion as some kind of loyalty to her mother. When I was in college in another state and we lived together (pre marriage - scandalous!) she was much more lax about religion. After college we moved into the same area as her mom, and the social aspect of family and friends kindled her faith, but made it harder for me to avoid. I'm glad, that sounds really promising I was always very much in conflict myself over the whole submission stuff. Actually, I ended up being down-right rebellious, and it was really the core reason why I left my ex-husband. I didn't realise I was quite so feministic when I married him. But what shocked me when I deconverted was just how much I did actually buy into it on a subconcious level. I would give some examples, but it's almost 6am, and I've been up all night arguing, so I'm just going to wish you continued luck before this post turns into verbal diarrhoea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentknight Posted July 29, 2012 Author Share Posted July 29, 2012 As someone else mentioned, if the pastor has no good answers then maybe she will start to doubt. Anyway, she didn't go to church today. She's still dreading facing the congregations questions about me not being with her. No email from the pastor either... so... kind of in a holding pattern for now. She's happy enough currently. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akheia Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 I feel kind of bad for her not being able to be among her friends and community group for fear of the judgment and gossip that'll come of you not being there. It says a lot about what kind of church you guys attend. I hope she connects the dots there. I'm glad things are holding up all right for you two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 They will say God first, Family second but in all actuality it holds no real value and they only live it when it suits them, and rarely does it suit them. God, that invisible, silent, imaginary entity first. So the other day I was painting the fence and god yells from the garage, "Hey, I need some help with this carburetor." I say, "Right after I finish the fence." He says, "God first!" So I put the brush down and walk over there and say, "What's the problem?" He says, "The wires on this carburetor are frayed." And I say, "That's because you disassembled the alternator....see, the carburetor's over there...omg." I get back to the paint brush and it's all dried up now and I have to throw it out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentknight Posted July 30, 2012 Author Share Posted July 30, 2012 I feel kind of bad for her not being able to be among her friends and community group for fear of the judgment and gossip that'll come of you not being there. It says a lot about what kind of church you guys attend. I hope she connects the dots there. I'm glad things are holding up all right for you two. I don't think the people there will be that judgemental. Most likely they will express concerns and say they are praying for her and me. I think it's more that she doesn't want to admit that her husband is a heathen, or something. Maybe she thinks of it as a failing of herself in some way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roadrunner Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 I feel kind of bad for her not being able to be among her friends and community group for fear of the judgment and gossip that'll come of you not being there. It says a lot about what kind of church you guys attend. I hope she connects the dots there. I'm glad things are holding up all right for you two. I don't think the people there will be that judgemental. Most likely they will express concerns and say they are praying for her and me. I think it's more that she doesn't want to admit that her husband is a heathen, or something. Maybe she thinks of it as a failing of herself in some way. thats the annoying part to me. my wife went through that. "Had i only shown you more of the love of christ." Trust me when my wife gets mad its proof that there is no god. All hell breaks loose and the holy spirit takes a coffee break. it just proves that people are people with feelings they have emotion and to assert that some being is inside of them living through them is looney. I also didnt want the support to her to have an advice effect and take her further into delusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentknight Posted July 30, 2012 Author Share Posted July 30, 2012 Yeah, deep down I think she's less bothered by me going Agnostic than she is by me choosing to do it after we've been in the same church for 3 years and now she has to go without me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roadrunner Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Yeah, deep down I think she's less bothered by me going Agnostic than she is by me choosing to do it after we've been in the same church for 3 years and now she has to go without me. This is the very reason I still go to church. My family has always operated as a unit and i dont want to be the outcast. "Hey, why havent I seen your husband". "Oh hes at home he's an atheist now". Its very empty though. My hearts not in it. Its more of a side show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentknight Posted July 30, 2012 Author Share Posted July 30, 2012 That's kind of what I've been doing. But without anyone knowing my true beliefs. Living the lie got too hard, and I personally can't deal with being there after it's known that I don't agree with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akheia Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I feel kind of bad for her not being able to be among her friends and community group for fear of the judgment and gossip that'll come of you not being there. It says a lot about what kind of church you guys attend. I hope she connects the dots there. I'm glad things are holding up all right for you two. I don't think the people there will be that judgemental. Most likely they will express concerns and say they are praying for her and me. I think it's more that she doesn't want to admit that her husband is a heathen, or something. Maybe she thinks of it as a failing of herself in some way. Pity is far worse than any outright hostility. I can see her not wanting to subject herself to that. There came a time after my deconversion that I just couldn't bring myself to go to church anymore either when I just didn't buy the lies anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SusanStoHeli Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I wonder if she'd be happier at a new church, where they don't expect her husband to be there... While the pastor has no authority over you or your marriage, I think it is a bit of a nice gesture to give him a try - you're showing that you are willing to give her way a try (yeah, I know, you've done it for years, decades - but I'm talking perception here).... you're listening to her. The key comes that this is returned - she should be open to listening to you too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentknight Posted July 31, 2012 Author Share Posted July 31, 2012 I wonder if she'd be happier at a new church, where they don't expect her husband to be there... While the pastor has no authority over you or your marriage, I think it is a bit of a nice gesture to give him a try - you're showing that you are willing to give her way a try (yeah, I know, you've done it for years, decades - but I'm talking perception here).... you're listening to her. The key comes that this is returned - she should be open to listening to you too. yeah. That's the way I saw it. Really.. I think she wants to see how the pastor defends against my arguments, as she has no way to refute them. He hasn't answered and I'm beginning to think he won't. I'm not sure what she will think of him if he makes no attempt at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roadrunner Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 yeah. That's the way I saw it. Really.. I think she wants to see how the pastor defends against my arguments, as she has no way to refute them. He hasn't answered and I'm beginning to think he won't. I'm not sure what she will think of him if he makes no attempt at it. This is what happened to me. You throw out good rational responses against the faith and your wife doesn't feel equipped to answer your questions so she calls in the "big dogs". thats exactly what happened with us. But talking with a pastor may not be so bad. they are usually loving, sympathetic, and compassionate especially in a situation like this. I was somehow expecting him to go into William Lane Craig mode. but instead he was very understanding. let us know how it goes. We also tried new churches just to start fresh. I was planning on assuming the new identity/role of "heathen husband who sometime goes to church who is nice but doesn't believe" and get out of the role of "wayward child/husband who spiritually abandoned his family". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentknight Posted July 31, 2012 Author Share Posted July 31, 2012 Here's the letter I wrote to them. I now feel comfortable sharing this here: [redacted], A warning in advance, you will need some time to read this email. Please read it when you have time to think it through, and DO NOT SKIM. Honesty is important in our lives, but it's not always the easiest path. Even with ourselves we are often not honest. For the past several years I was not honest with myself. Somewhere in my mind I knew I felt the way I do, but I ignored it because tradition and social pressure demanded that I do so. I know you think I'm "angry" or "rebelling". You think that with a little time and counseling I will see the error of my ways - that I just need someone to pacify my issues and all will be well. I can see why you think that. In being dishonest with myself, I was also inadvertently dishonest with you. Even when I stopped lying to myself I still lied to you. I tried to fit the mold I was meant to fill. I tried to "fake it 'til I make it", as some people like to say. Then, when I decided I had to act, I still lacked the resolve to fully explain myself. For this, I am sorry. This email will lay bare all that I believe on the matter. It is not my intention to challenge your faith. This has been one of my primary reasons for delaying so long. I believe your faith is a personal right to practice no matter what my opinion on the matter. However, in order to explain my reasoning, I must directly point out the flaws I see. You have two choices from this point forward. You can read my email in full, and learn why it is I cannot continue to attend services, or you can stop here and simply accept that I will not be attending. I will not fault you for not continuing. Dealing with a direct argument against ideas one holds dear is an uncomfortable task. However, you deserve the option to fully understand my reasons despite my desire to keep them private. Now, without further delay, my reasons: One of the main tenants of both Christianity and Judaism is that God is both omniscient and omnipotent. I believe this to be true. An all powerful being that is responsible for the creation of the universe must be so. However, the bible clearly does not represent him as such. He is represented much as man. He is fallible and subject to human emotions. Below are some illustrations of this point. - God creates Lucifer with the explicit job of only worshiping Him (Why God would need someone to do nothing but praise him all day, I can only guess). God is infallible, so he clearly has the power to make Lucifer completely good and capable at his job. However, he creates a being that can make mistakes, and thus God made a mistake, unless he planned for Lucifer to fall. Lucifer makes a huge mistake, as we all know. God banishes Lucifer and all his other failed creations from Heaven. - God creates all the animals and God creates Adam, and then Eve and puts them in the Garden of Eden. For some reason, God creates a couple of trees with extreme powers. One has the capability to give whatever creature that eats from it the ability to tell the difference between Good and Evil. The other tree gives the eater great knowledge. Why he would need to create these trees, when he already has these powers is unknown. He then tells man not to eat from these trees. However, one of God's creations (snake or satan or both) goes directly against God's will and tells Eve that nothing bad will happen if she eats from it... Now, overlooking the fact that God put a temptation in the garden of eden for no reason - we have the other issue that man did not yet know right from wrong. He hadn't yet eaten from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and then one of God's own creations (fallen or not, God is all powerful and all knowing, so he knew it was happening) tells (wo)man to go ahead and eat it. Man then eats the fruit, and gains such knowledge. Then God goes all vengeful and kicks everyone out, and goes so far as to put an armed angel guard by the tree of knowledge so that man can only know the difference between good and evil, but cannot be intelligent enough to know how to be good. Why?? Why would he even put the temptations there? - God spends the rest of the old testament repeatedly killing, or having his followers kill millions of people in gruesome and bloody ways. (God's all powerful, but apparently he prefers to have man do his killing) - God then changes his mind about killing everyone, and decides to repeal the judgement that everyone who sins is damned. Instead of just "changing his mind", he goes through the long convoluted process of getting around his own law, by coming to earth as a man and dying for our sins. After this, God is apparently tired of being angry and just give up on that. (except for warning us that one day he's really going to mess this whole planet up) If the bible is to believed a 100% correct, then the following must be true: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? I prefer to believe that the Bible is false. God IS perfect, man is not. Our Bible and religions based off of it are wrong. The old testament is merely the Jews recording their history as they saw it, via their primitive beliefs. The new Testament is merely the writings of a cult the evolved from Judaism to give some meaning to all the death and destruction of the OT. Besides my points above, I found this site with a quick search on google. It exhaustively cataloged all the oddities and absurdities in the bible. It has direct links to all the scriptures described: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/flaws.html http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/absurd.html http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/atrocity.html http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/absurd.html I know the argument that not all passages are literal, and that certain things in the OT need no longer be followed in our present day. But who has the authority to decide that? If the bible is the source of all authority, then no man should be telling us which passages are to be followed or not. So, in the words of Thomas Paine, one of the founding fathers of our country: "As to the book called the Bible, it is blasphemy to call it the Word of God. It is a book of lies and contradictions, and a history of bad times and bad men. There are but a few good characters in the whole book." I cannot use faith to override the rationality of my mind. Call it a failing in me, if you wish. I see it as a strength. As I stated earlier. I do not write this in an attempt to sway you from your faith. If it comforts you, then I hope you keep it. But faith does not comfort me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raoul Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 SilentKnight, Just want to thank you for posting your letter here. It pretty much covered just about everything a rational mind could conceive of regarding the absurdities of the bible and various contradictions. I'm going to save your email as a file for my own reflection because it really captured the most salient arguments against their cult. I'm also gonna check out those sites you provided for my own education. At the ripe young age of 67, I'm still learning new things and will always try to do so as long as I live. Oh, almost forgot - I'd be very surprised if you got a response or if you do, it will NOT be in direct reference to anything you've posited. Based on my own experience of trying to reason with them is why I say this. If he does in fact respond rationally and with some kind of logical constructs, I will start to believe in miracles again. LOL Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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