Escape In Progress... Advice?

[TrueFreedom]

I would just speak with the clergyman in order to make her happy. It might be best to take her with you. Let him know your position and that there is no point in asking you to read more shitty apologetics.

[silentknight]

I would just speak with the clergyman in order to make her happy. It might be best to take her with you. Let him know your position and that there is no point in asking you to read more shitty apologetics.

 

I see the point there, but that is hard for me. Due to my background with verbal and mental abuse in the name of religion, I have a very hard time talking face to face with religious leaders. I can know all the arguments in the world, but once I'm in that situation I freeze up. It's like stage fright, but worse. I dealt with a man for 7 years where reason had NO effect.. at all. It's scarred me.

[Akheia]

You don't have to do anything you don't want to do. Please remember that.

 

You know, that big paper released by the court after the Dover ID trial is available online and it is *DEVASTATING* to creationism. If I remember correctly it deals with quite a few of those "but what about" tardbiscuit questions that Christians always raise. It's a bit of a read but wow it's good. There are some good YouTube docos too about it. If she's that rational, she'll get over this, especially if she consults actual experts about evolution and whatnot.

 

Something I realized just now: if I knew that heaven was real but the man I loved wasn't going there, I'd clip God's chin and march into hell behind the one person I knew had my back. It blows my mind that a person could realize that her true love wasn't going to her unverified maybe-paradise and still insist on going there herself without him. There's no way I'd be happy partying down in heaven and drinking celestial mojitos knowing my beloved was roasting. There's nothing a god could say that'd justify things to me. My family matters more to me than the cruel whim of any thug of a deity.

[silentknight]

Thanks Akheia. I always find your posts comforting

 

She was reading an "easier" book on evolution, and was frustrated saying it didn't have evidence to support it, so I sent her this:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/default.html

 

That's anything but short on details and evidence. this is the paper she at first tried to claim was all wrong because it had some "caveats". As if, in order for evolution to be true, we must have ALL details figured out now, and can't rely on 99.9999999% (not a real figure) certainty. I'm completely baffled by someone taking that stance when their religion has no verification - but I was never a good christian.

[asanerman]

I would just speak with the clergyman in order to make her happy. It might be best to take her with you. Let him know your position and that there is no point in asking you to read more shitty apologetics.

 

I see the point there, but that is hard for me. Due to my background with verbal and mental abuse in the name of religion, I have a very hard time talking face to face with religious leaders. I can know all the arguments in the world, but once I'm in that situation I freeze up. It's like stage fright, but worse. I dealt with a man for 7 years where reason had NO effect.. at all. It's scarred me.

 

I have a friend who is a lawyer. When he realizes that he is in a losing argument he raises his voice a couple of octaves and goes into a "personal defense" mode.

 

He gets personal and seeks common ground. He has swayed many a judge and jury not to punish his client too harshly.

 

He's a good and honest man, he's a superb attorney!

 

He speaks from his "heart" with no apologies. He has told me that when faced with a dilemma he functions best when he speaks from his deepest understanding of who he is and what is required of him to "pass through the horns" of a dilemma or stalemate.

 

His raising of his voice indicates that he's looking for your attention. His power is found in knowing how the human hear works and where mercy is found.

 

I've seen him "clear" a court room--shift the emphasis from judgement to empathy and deep mercy for his client.

 

You know your heart--what you need-- regardless of what your wife or her "preacher man or woman" feels or thinks.

 

Raise your voice, set the stage, plead your case--"give me liberty or give me death!" God knows I give you your liberty--cut me a break here, please give me my liberty--don't you see what is going on here--you've decided to crucify me in the name of the very one who ask you not to judge me!"

 

When my lawyer friend, understands that "guilt," in the eyes of the "law" is sure and enforceable--even if that "law" is unjust and an illusion, he pleas for common ground--space to see the consequence of what the judgement is doing and will do.

 

He has no "apology" other than how much damage and destruction are we willing to execute--how much collateral damage has to come of our judgment before we are "satisfied."

 

Is the death of a marriage relationship worth it?

 

Is shooting me because you think I am "wrong" worth it? What will it prove? What potential will no mercy release?

 

In your God's name give me a break, please!

 

Or must we enter Hell, now!

 

Does all "this" look like, Love after Love, to you?

 

Become your own attorney. Plead your case--the core of what you are which needs no "apologies." What it is, is what it is!

 

I don't WANT to challenge her beliefs.

 

Do something daring--

 

Challenge her love for you!

 

Challenge your ability to demonstrate anew to your wife that you are who you are! (to hell with the preacher man).

 

Shortcut the preacher man, it's your life!

 

My lawyer friend understands when it's time "to hold them or fold them."

 

Only you can know of what you are capable.

 

Only you can "tell it like it is" and live with it!

[silentknight]

Thank you, asanerman.

 

I've been arguing my point with her. Passionately, but not angrily. It's very hard for me justify being angry, as I've too often witnessed people who were clearly wrong win something by being the loudest and angriest. It isn't fair, I want facts to show the truth, not passion to win. Anyone can claim something passionately, and make a beautiful speech but that doesn't make it true. I try my best to balance this. Fact + passion, but in a way that's not "threatening". I don't want to turn someone away from me simply because my passion conflicts with theirs. Too much passion muddles the point.

 

I will keep your words in mind, and try to find the best position to keep myself sane.

[TrueFreedom]

This is a good basic intro to common misconceptions of evolution if she really doesn't get it: http://www.skeptic.com/downloads/top-10-evolution-myths.pdf

[silentknight]

thanks TrueFreedom. While this PDF is a good start, I think she will say it's too simple and just the word of some scientists against creation. for her to accept this PDF, she'd want all the studies behind all 10 misconceptions. I'm certainly not equipped to explain them all in detail, so I've been trying to find the highly scientific papers that support it.

 

When I said I can't find any evidence to support, God, though. she just says "I'm sure it exists somewhere I just don't know where." *facepalm at double standard*

[asanerman]

Thank you, asanerman.

 

I've been arguing my point with her. Passionately, but not angrily. It's very hard for me justify being angry, as I've too often witnessed people who were clearly wrong win something by being the loudest and angriest. It isn't fair, I want facts to show the truth, not passion to win. Anyone can claim something passionately, and make a beautiful speech but that doesn't make it true. I try my best to balance this. Fact + passion, but in a way that's not "threatening". I don't want to turn someone away from me simply because my passion conflicts with theirs. Too much passion muddles the point.

 

I will keep your words in mind, and try to find the best position to keep myself sane.

 

silentknight,

 

The first casualties of conflict are imagination and creativity.

 

Anger may have little to do with the issue, although it can be and usually is an ingredient.

 

Your facts vs passion may have little to do with the issue, although ingredients.

 

The issue seems to be that you have been "weighed in the balances and have been found wanting". You are guilty.

 

In the mind of the "jury" (the believers) you sand before the "court," or you would not be facing your dilemma.

 

The facts (according to the authorities) are stacked against you. That seems to be the dilemma..

 

Whether you have "fact" or "passion," whether you are angry or not, whether or not the facts (the truth) support you, they maters little to the authorities.

 

Whether you're assertive or passive it does not matter--you are guilty in the juror's eye and mind. There is no defense.

 

You are the identified patient with the problem, so let's take him to the authority (doctor or priest) and get him fixed--convince him of his error).

 

When you get "fixed" everything will be fine--just like its has always been.

 

"Soul-mates, Play-mates, or Stale-mates" (Keen).

 

Asserting ourselves in whatever manner we deem is one of the greatest challenges we humans face--

 

"To be or not to be," especially when our "worthiness" is falsely judged and accused.

 

How does one defend against "that" when all that one has is not "good" enough?

 

The wise warrior knows how to fight. The wise warrior knows what kills. The wise warrior knows how to fend for equality, balance and equilibrium when in battles involving his or her beloved!

 

I wish you and your wife the best in your becoming whole.

[Margee]

I would just speak with the clergyman in order to make her happy. It might be best to take her with you. Let him know your position and that there is no point in asking you to read more shitty apologetics.

 

I see the point there, but that is hard for me. Due to my background with verbal and mental abuse in the name of religion, I have a very hard time talking face to face with religious leaders. I can know all the arguments in the world, but once I'm in that situation I freeze up. It's like stage fright, but worse. I dealt with a man for 7 years where reason had NO effect.. at all. It's scarred me.

 

I have a friend who is a lawyer. When he realizes that he is in a losing argument he raises his voice a couple of octaves and goes into a "personal defense" mode.

 

He gets personal and seeks common ground. He has swayed many a judge and jury not to punish his client too harshly.

 

He's a good and honest man, he's a superb attorney!

 

He speaks from his "heart" with no apologies. He has told me that when faced with a dilemma he functions best when he speaks from his deepest understanding of who he is and what is required of him to "pass through the horns" of a dilemma or stalemate.

 

His raising of his voice indicates that he's looking for your attention. His power is found in knowing how the human hear works and where mercy is found.

 

I've seen him "clear" a court room--shift the emphasis from judgement to empathy and deep mercy for his client.

 

You know your heart--what you need-- regardless of what your wife or her "preacher man or woman" feels or thinks.

 

Raise your voice, set the stage, plead your case--"give me liberty or give me death!" God knows I give you your liberty--cut me a break here, please give me my liberty--don't you see what is going on here--you've decided to crucify me in the name of the very one who ask you not to judge me!"

 

When my lawyer friend, understands that "guilt," in the eyes of the "law" is sure and enforceable--even if that "law" is unjust and an illusion, he pleas for common ground--space to see the consequence of what the judgement is doing and will do.

 

He has no "apology" other than how much damage and destruction are we willing to execute--how much collateral damage has to come of our judgment before we are "satisfied."

 

Is the death of a marriage relationship worth it?

 

Is shooting me because you think I am "wrong" worth it? What will it prove? What potential will no mercy release?

 

In your God's name give me a break, please!

 

Or must we enter Hell, now!

 

Does all "this" look like, Love after Love, to you?

 

Become your own attorney. Plead your case--the core of what you are which needs no "apologies." What it is, is what it is!

 

I don't WANT to challenge her beliefs.

 

Do something daring--

 

Challenge her love for you!

 

Challenge your ability to demonstrate anew to your wife that you are who you are! (to hell with the preacher man).

 

Shortcut the preacher man, it's your life!

 

My lawyer friend understands when it's time "to hold them or fold them."

 

Only you can know of what you are capable.

 

Only you can "tell it like it is" and live with it!

 

Saner......Im tellin ya man.....that was friggin profound!! Thank you for that!! THIS is going in my favorites!! *****

[SusanStoHeli]

I'd pull this into the real world for her. Let's consider seatbelts - the evidence shows that most of the time they save lives in car accidents. I look at the evidence and see that this is where I believe the truth is.

 

But someone else - they say that wearing a spiky helmet, to break the glass when you're thrown from the car in an accident is better. They've got an ancient book describing how the spiky helmet has worked and saved lives. There's no evidence, nothing hard, but hey, it feels right!

 

Now, if your wife was to consider these two perspectives, would she consider the fact that in incredibly rare instances being thrown from the car can save your life (a caveat) as a valid way to say that the spiky helmet thing was the truth, a reason not to even look at the statistics and information about seatbelts?

 

Sounds to me like the emotional need to believe is providing her with blinders, to try to avoid seeing the reality here.

[★ Citsonga ★]

Here's the letter I wrote to them. I now feel comfortable sharing this here:

 

[redacted],

 

A warning in advance, you will need some time to read this email.

Please read it when you have time to think it through, and DO NOT

SKIM.

 

Honesty is important in our lives, but it's not always the easiest

path. Even with ourselves we are often not honest. For the past

several years I was not honest with myself. Somewhere in my mind I

knew I felt the way I do, but I ignored it because tradition and

social pressure demanded that I do so.

 

I know you think I'm "angry" or "rebelling". You think that with a

little time and counseling I will see the error of my ways - that I

just need someone to pacify my issues and all will be well. I can see

why you think that. In being dishonest with myself, I was also

inadvertently dishonest with you. Even when I stopped lying to myself

I still lied to you. I tried to fit the mold I was meant to fill. I

tried to "fake it 'til I make it", as some people like to say. Then,

when I decided I had to act, I still lacked the resolve to fully

explain myself. For this, I am sorry. This email will lay bare all

that I believe on the matter.

 

It is not my intention to challenge your faith. This has been one of

my primary reasons for delaying so long. I believe your faith is a

personal right to practice no matter what my opinion on the matter.

However, in order to explain my reasoning, I must directly point out

the flaws I see. You have two choices from this point forward. You can

read my email in full, and learn why it is I cannot continue to attend

services, or you can stop here and simply accept that I will not be

attending. I will not fault you for not continuing. Dealing with a

direct argument against ideas one holds dear is an uncomfortable task.

However, you deserve the option to fully understand my reasons despite

my desire to keep them private.

 

Now, without further delay, my reasons:

 

One of the main tenants of both Christianity and Judaism is that God

is both omniscient and omnipotent. I believe this to be true. An all

powerful being that is responsible for the creation of the universe

must be so. However, the bible clearly does not represent him as such.

He is represented much as man. He is fallible and subject to human

emotions. Below are some illustrations of this point.

 

- God creates Lucifer with the explicit job of only worshiping Him

(Why God would need someone to do nothing but praise him all day, I

can only guess). God is infallible, so he clearly has the power to

make Lucifer completely good and capable at his job. However, he

creates a being that can make mistakes, and thus God made a mistake,

unless he planned for Lucifer to fall. Lucifer makes a huge mistake,

as we all know. God banishes Lucifer and all his other failed

creations from Heaven.

 

- God creates all the animals and God creates Adam, and then Eve and

puts them in the Garden of Eden. For some reason, God creates a

couple of trees with extreme powers. One has the capability to give

whatever creature that eats from it the ability to tell the difference

between Good and Evil. The other tree gives the eater great knowledge.

Why he would need to create these trees, when he already has these

powers is unknown. He then tells man not to eat from these trees.

However, one of God's creations (snake or satan or both) goes directly

against God's will and tells Eve that nothing bad will happen if she

eats from it... Now, overlooking the fact that God put a temptation in

the garden of eden for no reason - we have the other issue that man

did not yet know right from wrong. He hadn't yet eaten from the tree

of the knowledge of good and evil, and then one of God's own creations

(fallen or not, God is all powerful and all knowing, so he knew it was

happening) tells (wo)man to go ahead and eat it. Man then eats the

fruit, and gains such knowledge. Then God goes all vengeful and kicks

everyone out, and goes so far as to put an armed angel guard by the

tree of knowledge so that man can only know the difference between

good and evil, but cannot be intelligent enough to know how to be

good. Why?? Why would he even put the temptations there?

 

- God spends the rest of the old testament repeatedly killing, or

having his followers kill millions of people in gruesome and bloody

ways. (God's all powerful, but apparently he prefers to have man do

his killing)

 

- God then changes his mind about killing everyone, and decides to

repeal the judgement that everyone who sins is damned. Instead of just

"changing his mind", he goes through the long convoluted process of

getting around his own law, by coming to earth as a man and dying for

our sins. After this, God is apparently tired of being angry and just

give up on that. (except for warning us that one day he's really going

to mess this whole planet up)

 

If the bible is to believed a 100% correct, then the following must be true:

 

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?

Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?

Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?

Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?

Then why call him God?

 

I prefer to believe that the Bible is false. God IS perfect, man is

not. Our Bible and religions based off of it are wrong. The old

testament is merely the Jews recording their history as they saw it,

via their primitive beliefs. The new Testament is merely the writings

of a cult the evolved from Judaism to give some meaning to all the

death and destruction of the OT.

 

Besides my points above, I found this site with a quick search on

google. It exhaustively cataloged all the oddities and absurdities in

the bible. It has direct links to all the scriptures described:

http://www.infidels....rgan/flaws.html

http://www.infidels....gan/absurd.html

http://www.infidels....n/atrocity.html

http://www.infidels....gan/absurd.html

 

I know the argument that not all passages are literal, and that

certain things in the OT need no longer be followed in our present

day. But who has the authority to decide that? If the bible is the

source of all authority, then no man should be telling us which

passages are to be followed or not.

 

So, in the words of Thomas Paine, one of the founding fathers of our country:

"As to the book called the Bible, it is blasphemy to call it the Word

of God. It is a book of lies and contradictions, and a history of bad

times and bad men. There are but a few good characters in the whole

book."

 

I cannot use faith to override the rationality of my mind. Call it a

failing in me, if you wish. I see it as a strength.

As I stated earlier. I do not write this in an attempt to sway you

from your faith. If it comforts you, then I hope you keep it. But

faith does not comfort me.

 

Sorry to jump in late, but I wanted to say that that was a really good letter, straight and to the point. I certainly hope that things improve between you and your wife, and of course the pastor, whose response to this was rather weak.

 

In case things get deeper and the content of your letter gets discussed more, I would like to point out two minor things.

 

First, you discuss the fall of Lucifer as if it was Satan, which is a traditional Christian doctrine. However, that's not biblical at all. They do base it on a Bible verse (Isaiah 14:12), but it's taken completely out of context by Christians. In reality, it's talking about the king of Babylon (v 4 ff).

 

Second, you mention the angels in the garden guarding the tree of knowledge, but in the Bible account they were guarding the tree of life (Genesis 3:24), so that the man and woman couldn't eat from it and gain eternal life (v 22). They had already eaten from the tree of knowledge.

 

Otherwise, though, excellent points. Your questioning is right on the money. Good job, and good luck.

[★ Citsonga ★]

We had a short debate about how to determine if things are true. My basic response was the bible isn't impartial and has no evidence to back it up. She came back with "but we can't really know what happened back then, not even dinosaurs"

 

Saying that we can't know what happened and also claiming that she's right about what happened (i.e., Christianity is true) is a contradictory position.

 

Anyway... we discussed matters of evolution and the bible for about an hour while lying in bed. During that time she kept asking me "why didn't you talk to the minister when you had doubts?" I explained that I wasn't comfortable asking him, and that I felt better going to a source that didn't know me. And I explained that I AM reading books suggested by the minister... anyway, she kept asking that, saying that she didn't have the answers. That I MUST talk to the minister because he KNOWS these things, and she doesn't.

 

As a believer, though, she's supposed to have the Holy Spirit living in her. If God Almighty is in her, then he should be able to enlighten her with the answers. The need to rely on a human to argue for a supposedly all-powerful God is a pretty good indicator that the whole thing is man-made. No perfect deity would be so dependent on mortal, fallible man to do his bidding for him.

 

Once again, good luck as you go through this.

[roadrunner]

She asked me if I really believed "we came from fish". Trying to make it sound stupid. I said that Yes, I believe in evolution, because the evidence strongly points to it being true, and that I would NEVER ask her to believe anything there wasn't EVIDENCE for.

If she ever asks that type of question again, you might wanna re-phrase it to 'we have the indentical DNA, at least in the embyonic stage, as a fish, chicken, and other animals'.

sometimes I can imagine hat a Xi'an has to see pictures took. E mocked evolution at my church but we glaze over animal that seem to be hybrids like the salamander, duck billed platypus, and lizard species that are clearly snakes with nubby legs

[mcdaddy]

My wife's learned not to bring it up anymore. She has a masters degree, and while shes pretty naive and lacks a little common sense, that's only bc she's too trusting a person and like everyone else has decades of brainwashing working against her. Great person tho.

 

It will work itself out in time SK. If it doesn't an she prefers her fairy tale over flesh and blood, then she doesn't really have the requisite kind of love for you needed to maintain a marriage. You'd be better off not dealing with that the rest of your life.

 

But I don't think you're headed there. Give it time. All you can do is show her you're a good person. You may have to be extra good for a while to prove you're not an incarnation of Satan, but maybe volunteer on Sunday mornings or some shit like that. It'll work out man. Welcome the the UYC.

[raoul]

sometimes I can imagine hat a Xi'an has to see pictures took. E mocked evolution at my church but we glaze over animal that seem to be hybrids like the salamander, duck billed platypus, and lizard species that are clearly snakes with nubby legs

Yeah good point!

[silentknight]

Thanks for all the comments, everyone.

 

We had another discussion last night. We were both exhausted, so I didn't want to debate, and she said "can you just answer some questions?"... I knew it wouldn't stop at that, but I agreed. She asked me more questions about why I don't believe, and what it would take for me to believe. I answered matter of factly, that all the evidence points to the bible being a work of man, etc. And that to believe I'd need some kind of irrefutable evidence.

 

She got miffed by my repsonses, as I expected. She resorted to calling me "crazy" when she realized that I wasn't going to believe in the bible was divinely inspired without physical proof. (I found it ironic that someone believing in fairy tales is calling me crazy for wanting proof for the fairy tales... but I didn't mention that) After some debate, and her several times belittling science... saying people "can't know" what science claims, despite having evidence, so why not just believe what i'm told by the priests who'v devoted their lives to understanding why I should believe...... she finally resorted the the argument "how can you look at all of the world and not think there is a God?".

 

Rather than get into a debate of the universe coming from nothing, I went what I consider a more reasonable apporach, and how I actually think of it. I said that I don't know how the universe started, exactly, but I'm ok with that. That whatever it was that caused all this, I don't think it's the god of the bible. I said if there IS a god, he's certainly a better being than what the bible says he is. the Bible is short sighted. It has all the earmarks of myth, and fiction mixed with historical details that are all skewed. She stopped talking to me after that, and we went to sleep.

 

Edit: Oh yes! She also accused me of being closed minded. I replied that I'm being open minded.. it's why i came to this conclusion that I can't believe. Rather than focus only on what I was supposed to think, and only asking "safe" questions" I looked at the big picture of the world. Not just the bible. And taking that view, the bible is incredibly narrow for a guide on our entire lives.

[raoul]

I said that I don't know how the universe started, exactly, but I'm ok with that. That whatever it was that caused all this, I don't think it's the god of the bible. I said if there IS a god, he's certainly a better being than what the bible says he is. the Bible is short sighted. It has all the earmarks of myth, and fiction mixed with historical details that are all skewed. She stopped talking to me after that, and we went to sleep.

Sounds like you're where I'm at - something may have caused it or even planned it but this something is definitely NOT the god of the bible. Regarding her comments about the bible, I think you asked about Bart Ehrman before. If so, did you get any of his books or see any of his vids on YouTube? If not, maybe you can get her to watch a couple of the shorter versions of YouTube videos by him regarding his textual criticism of the bible. They're very easy to understand, in fact, probably more so than what he's written about. All you gotta do is go to YouTube and put in his name in the search field.

[Akheia]

Poor gal. She's having a tough time with this, clearly. Imagine how much harder this would be if she actually were really fundie! She clearly has a very deep-seated need to believe. Like you, I think I always had that grain of critical thinking in me. I believed, oh I believed and I loved Jesus, but I loved the constructs I'd been sold. I always thought that of *course* there was proof. I just didn't know what it was yet. When I found out the truth, it was devastating--not only to learn that there's no way Jesus could have existed in the form we had been taught, but to discover I'd so passionately followed a lie purely on the say-so of those I'd put in authority over me. They betrayed me. They had to know this shit, and they lied to my face. Yes, I was pretty pissed for a long time.

 

The Dover trial thingie I mentioned might be a huge help to you. The creationists who were at first all crowing about how they were going to make those evil-utionists eat their feet later withdrew from testimony when it became vastly apparent that the judge wasn't nearly as gullible as the last generation or so of fundies has been. There's a lot of science we do know. The ToE is one of the best-supported pieces of scientific fact at our command. That anybody doubts its veracity is a testimony to the stunning efforts of those who are undermining science for their religious agenda.

[silentknight]

I haven't directly given her his videos yet, but I did mention some of details about how the new testament we know of was compiled, etc. and how we can't know any of it is accurate. If she get's to the point of being open enough to watch such a video, or read his books without saying "This guy's just stupid". Then, yeah, I'll give her all that stuff. Right now she's in too much denial.

[silentknight]

Poor gal. She's having a tough time with this, clearly. Imagine how much harder this would be if she actually were really fundie! She clearly has a very deep-seated need to believe. Like you, I think I always had that grain of critical thinking in me. I believed, oh I believed and I loved Jesus, but I loved the constructs I'd been sold. I always thought that of *course* there was proof. I just didn't know what it was yet. When I found out the truth, it was devastating--not only to learn that there's no way Jesus could have existed in the form we had been taught, but to discover I'd so passionately followed a lie purely on the say-so of those I'd put in authority over me. They betrayed me. They had to know this shit, and they lied to my face. Yes, I was pretty pissed for a long time.

 

The Dover trial thingie I mentioned might be a huge help to you. The creationists who were at first all crowing about how they were going to make those evil-utionists eat their feet later withdrew from testimony when it became vastly apparent that the judge wasn't nearly as gullible as the last generation or so of fundies has been. There's a lot of science we do know. The ToE is one of the best-supported pieces of scientific fact at our command. That anybody doubts its veracity is a testimony to the stunning efforts of those who are undermining science for their religious agenda.

 

completely agree. It's why I'm never the one to start these discussions. I know it has to be hard for her. She needs to think it through on her own time and make her own decision. However, she currently can't understand how science and religion can't agree and both be correct (they can't) so she's saying to herself "science must be incorrect" or "the people doing the science are not gathering enough evidence and are making unfounded assumptions"... thus the "it's still a theory!" argument.

 

So... I don't bring it up. But when she does, I answer everything honestly and try my best to keep my cool. I'll point out illogical arguments, etc. Such as "If you're going to invalidate religion then you need to have a counter-theory" i said "No, I don't... There's no requirement when proving something false to have the correct answer"

 

I found a NOVA show on the court case, going to check it out later: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/evolution/intelligent-design-trial.html

[raoul]

I haven't directly given her his videos yet, but I did mention some of details about how the new testament we know of was compiled, etc. and how we can't know any of it is accurate. If she get's to the point of being open enough to watch such a video, or read his books without saying "This guy's just stupid". Then, yeah, I'll give her all that stuff. Right now she's in too much denial.

Okay, sounds like a good plan. I just wanted to make sure I had told you about this. Thanks for responding and good luck. I'm just SSSSOOOO lucky I'm not in your shoes. But you DO have a great support line over here so hopefully, things will turn out okay.

[FeelHappy]

She got miffed by my repsonses, as I expected. She resorted to calling me "crazy" when she realized that I wasn't going to believe in the bible was divinely inspired without physical proof. (I found it ironic that someone believing in fairy tales is calling me crazy for wanting proof for the fairy tales... but I didn't mention that)

 

I used to live by the bible (I arrogantly thought more so than those "sunday" christians which never took the time to actually read it), and although I found it pretty hard to accept parts of it I thought god had a reason for so many of the difficulties found therein. Right now I'm rereading the bible once again, this is the first time after I fully deconverted. I'm actually shocked that I've made it though this book 4 other times (along with new testament at least 10-15 additional times, but it is far easier), its not only extremely boring, but so obviously man made that I'm struggling to grasp how I've ever though it was fully flawless and inspired by the holy spirit. That must have took some major cognitive dissonance on my part. Anyways if you took away preconceived beliefs about the infallibility of the bible, no one would actually think its divinely inspired.

[silentknight]

So, my wife hasn't been going to church since she doesn't know what to say to people about me. She's been bugging the pastor and he finally responded to her:

 

"I know that this is very difficult for you. I do think that it is imperative that you not allow this to keep you from coming to church (if anything, Matt needs to see your commitment to Christ more than ever). Having said that, I think that I would be honest with folks about what is going on (without having to give them all of the details).

 

For instance, when someone asks you, “Where is Matt?” You could respond with, “He is struggling with his commitment to the Christian faith. Fr. [redacted] is trying to work with him on this. Would you please pray for us?”

 

By saying this (or something akin to it), you will remove all curiosity, hopefully keep them from contacting him (by saying that I am working with him), and give them a way to help you by asking them to pray.

 

It occurred to me the other day that you may want to talk with [redacted] about this. I do not know every detail but I am pretty sure that her husband basically did the same thing after they were married. She may be able to give you her insights.

I hope that this helps. As always, I am available to talk if you want to call me."

[Thought2Much]

It occurred to me the other day that you may want to talk with [redacted] about this. I do not know every detail but I am pretty sure that her husband basically did the same thing after they were married. She may be able to give you her insights.

I hope that this helps. As always, I am available to talk if you want to call me."

 

Did this woman's husband ever come back to church?