Salvation Attained By Belief Is Unfair And Unjust

[ShackledNoMore]

It is completely wack. It amounts to not just to salvation being contingent on a person's gullibility, but also upon him or her being lucky enough to be sold the right story, equally implausible with hundreds of of other fantastic tales floating around.

[LifeCycle]

I'm glad others see it. Here where I am, the idea that it's unfair is not even thought of. I feel like a god among men, honestly. And I'm not even that smart.

[Droptail]

LifeCycle, I saw your post in the "Very First" thread and came here. As you've said, salvation attained by belief is inherently unfair given human realities.

 

Here's a map of dominant religions in the world which illustrates the absurdity of basing an afterlife reward or punishment on whether or not one believes correctly. As you can see, people living in certain areas are going to be more privileged than others under such a scheme:

 

I don't know if you're familiar with John W. Loftus, who proposed the "Outsider Test for Faith": http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Outsider_test. Almost everyone will initially adopt the religious beliefs of their parents and native country, so to bring this back to your point, that fact unfairly handicaps swaths of humanity from (Christian) salvation.

 

Another angle to consider is that of language. There are over 6000 languages in the world today. Thousands of these have not had the Bible translated into their language. Sure, organizations like the Christian-run Summer Institute for Linguistics (SIL) extensively study the world's languages in efforts to translate the Bible, but why should salvation be limited to those who can understand a language that has Christian literature produced in it? That effort shouldn't be necessary, of course, except for the obvious: Christianity is not a universal truth that can be independently discovered; it has to be purposefully disseminated to others to keep it alive. So, in sum, those who grew up speaking the wrong language and never learned another with Christian literature in it would also be condemned to hell if Christianity were true.

 

I also would agree that universalism is the most logical approach to resolve the unfair nature of salvation doctrines, if I had any basis for belief in a heaven or humanity's need to be saved from sin, which I don't.

[mcdaddy]

Salvation by belief is rather nonsensical, because religious belief isn't grounded in anything rational, it's all based on "faith". So I must ask - what is so noble about "faith" that it is the very thing that determines where one will spend eternity? Is it really a virtue to blindly accept what you are told as truth, without any question as to it's validity?

 

But even if all that was really the way it is - I am supposed to believe that 2000 years ago some middle eastern guy who was really god himself was born of a virgin, was sacrificed by his dad (who was also himself) to his dad (who was also himself), then died, went to hell, came back as a zombie three days later, then launched himself through earth's atmosphere at warp speed into deep space, (with no protective space suit, oxygen, etc), to end up in a magical place called heaven where he lived happily ever after seated at the right hand of his dad (who was also himself). This is what I am supposed to accept as not only reasonable, but as historically factual and true, with absolutely no skepticism at all? Really!??

 

DUNT LAFF AT ME BELEEFS!! DEY ARR SAYCRED!!!

[LifeCycle]

Hokun, excellent post. You're so right about the language barriers and those being just as their parents are when it comes to beliefs... This is what I call a variable in each person's "salvation formula." If you're lucky enough to have godly parents who believe, most likely, you're also going to believe as well. Fortunately for you, belief came easy. You just existed and did as you were taught. Great job! You get heaven forever! And those who didn't have the very significant variable of "godly parents" to contribute to their "salvation formula" are just very unlucky and because of it, are less likely to become believers. Oh well, they're scum worthy of an eternity of torture. That's compassion, that's just and that's love.

[micksherlock]

That's it... That's the first conclusion that led me away from mainstream Christianity. Fundamentalists believe that one must believe to attain salvation. This assumes that we all have an equal shot at this salvation. My premise is simple. We don't get an equal shot at this belief in this life. If this is the case, there are certainly many who gain salvation outside of nothing of their own doing... They simply go with the flow as they are born into believing households. They get their belief easy. It's just what they do. Others, may be born into unbelieving households where they are raised and influenced in things not of god but of science and provable history. Naturally, their minds are going to be wired differently after a childhood of exposure to this. For the believer to think that this person could just flip a switch and now believe in something completely unprovable and unobservable, is ridiculous. And to top it off, this person is now worthy of eternal torment. It should also be noted that the circumstances of which family and which time a person is born into are completely outside of that person's control. So largely, a person is a believer based on circumstances they have no control over...

 

For a believer to tell me - a boy raised without a father - that there is a compassionate creator out there who loves me, while they had both loving parents in their home who could provide for them tells me that one, it's easier for them to believe as such because maybe they have not encountered the emotional turmoil I have and two, they're naive. From their perspective belief in an all-loving creator is easy. But for many, it would be far easier to live a life of solitude in the desert than to believe in an all-knowing, all-loving and all-present god.

 

Life is not fair and to conclude that within this life, our ability to believe is fair, is pure silly-ness... Some people live longer than others... Thus they may have more opportunity to attain this belief. Why are some born into it, some are born out of it and some are born who never hear of it? And we're to believe this clearly imperfect, unjust and unfair system is what a just god uses to determine who goes where for all of eternity?

 

What about those willing to believe but who were never presented the gospel? What about those who would have been presented the gospel but died just one day prior to reaching that opportunity? And to top that off, they died by no fault of their own. Now, they're in hell, burning forever and God knows, had they only had one more day, they would have been in heaven forever. But, they had to drive to work late one night because some servers had crashed and a drunk driver collided with them, killing them. If only they were still alive to answer the knock on the door the following day. They would have listened and accepted... Oh well. Sucks to be them.

 

There's so many problems with the belief-based salvation model. It just takes a little critical thought and questioning to find the holes... For me, this is the loose string on my sweater of faith that I tugged a little too hard on as it started to cause the rest to unravel as I developed more and more questions.

 

This is a brilliant and enlightened post, in my humble opinion. Believe or go to hell! Use your mind and suffer, or be a dimwit and live forever, in a blissful eternity filled with similar unminded dimwits! I think I will take Hell, thanks!

[mcdaddy]

Yeah. The whole rea of hell got introduced simply because the first two humans wanted to know WTF was going on.

[LifeCycle]

Yeah. The whole rea of hell got introduced simply because the first two humans wanted to know WTF was going on.

 

And since when is it just to hold others accountable for something their ancestors did thousands of years ago? Two people fucked up and now others have to suffer... Thousands of mother fucking years later?

[antix]

That's it... That's the first conclusion that led me away from mainstream Christianity. Fundamentalists believe that one must believe to attain salvation. This assumes that we all have an equal shot at this salvation. My premise is simple. We don't get an equal shot at this belief in this life. If this is the case, there are certainly many who gain salvation outside of nothing of their own doing... They simply go with the flow as they are born into believing households. They get their belief easy. It's just what they do. Others, may be born into unbelieving households where they are raised and influenced in things not of god but of science and provable history. Naturally, their minds are going to be wired differently after a childhood of exposure to this. For the believer to think that this person could just flip a switch and now believe in something completely unprovable and unobservable, is ridiculous. And to top it off, this person is now worthy of eternal torment. It should also be noted that the circumstances of which family and which time a person is born into are completely outside of that person's control. So largely, a person is a believer based on circumstances they have no control over...

 

For a believer to tell me - a boy raised without a father - that there is a compassionate creator out there who loves me, while they had both loving parents in their home who could provide for them tells me that one, it's easier for them to believe as such because maybe they have not encountered the emotional turmoil I have and two, they're naive. From their perspective belief in an all-loving creator is easy. But for many, it would be far easier to live a life of solitude in the desert than to believe in an all-knowing, all-loving and all-present god.

 

Life is not fair and to conclude that within this life, our ability to believe is fair, is pure silly-ness... Some people live longer than others... Thus they may have more opportunity to attain this belief. Why are some born into it, some are born out of it and some are born who never hear of it? And we're to believe this clearly imperfect, unjust and unfair system is what a just god uses to determine who goes where for all of eternity?

 

What about those willing to believe but who were never presented the gospel? What about those who would have been presented the gospel but died just one day prior to reaching that opportunity? And to top that off, they died by no fault of their own. Now, they're in hell, burning forever and God knows, had they only had one more day, they would have been in heaven forever. But, they had to drive to work late one night because some servers had crashed and a drunk driver collided with them, killing them. If only they were still alive to answer the knock on the door the following day. They would have listened and accepted... Oh well. Sucks to be them.

 

There's so many problems with the belief-based salvation model. It just takes a little critical thought and questioning to find the holes... For me, this is the loose string on my sweater of faith that I tugged a little too hard on as it started to cause the rest to unravel as I developed more and more questions.

 

That is my issue, they are still finding tribes (in brazil and some islands off india) where the people had no contact with civilization. How could they be sent to hell?

[LifeCycle]

That's it... That's the first conclusion that led me away from mainstream Christianity. Fundamentalists believe that one must believe to attain salvation. This assumes that we all have an equal shot at this salvation. My premise is simple. We don't get an equal shot at this belief in this life. If this is the case, there are certainly many who gain salvation outside of nothing of their own doing... They simply go with the flow as they are born into believing households. They get their belief easy. It's just what they do. Others, may be born into unbelieving households where they are raised and influenced in things not of god but of science and provable history. Naturally, their minds are going to be wired differently after a childhood of exposure to this. For the believer to think that this person could just flip a switch and now believe in something completely unprovable and unobservable, is ridiculous. And to top it off, this person is now worthy of eternal torment. It should also be noted that the circumstances of which family and which time a person is born into are completely outside of that person's control. So largely, a person is a believer based on circumstances they have no control over...

 

For a believer to tell me - a boy raised without a father - that there is a compassionate creator out there who loves me, while they had both loving parents in their home who could provide for them tells me that one, it's easier for them to believe as such because maybe they have not encountered the emotional turmoil I have and two, they're naive. From their perspective belief in an all-loving creator is easy. But for many, it would be far easier to live a life of solitude in the desert than to believe in an all-knowing, all-loving and all-present god.

 

Life is not fair and to conclude that within this life, our ability to believe is fair, is pure silly-ness... Some people live longer than others... Thus they may have more opportunity to attain this belief. Why are some born into it, some are born out of it and some are born who never hear of it? And we're to believe this clearly imperfect, unjust and unfair system is what a just god uses to determine who goes where for all of eternity?

 

What about those willing to believe but who were never presented the gospel? What about those who would have been presented the gospel but died just one day prior to reaching that opportunity? And to top that off, they died by no fault of their own. Now, they're in hell, burning forever and God knows, had they only had one more day, they would have been in heaven forever. But, they had to drive to work late one night because some servers had crashed and a drunk driver collided with them, killing them. If only they were still alive to answer the knock on the door the following day. They would have listened and accepted... Oh well. Sucks to be them.

 

There's so many problems with the belief-based salvation model. It just takes a little critical thought and questioning to find the holes... For me, this is the loose string on my sweater of faith that I tugged a little too hard on as it started to cause the rest to unravel as I developed more and more questions.

 

That is my issue, they are still finding tribes (in brazil and some islands off india) where the people had no contact with civilization. How could they be sent to hell?

 

This is where fundies will say that no man is without excuse... So I ask how these people could believe... They answer with complete speculation that Jesus makes himself known to them and then they have an option to believe or not blah blah blah *not making any sense* continue to blah blah blah. Then I respond with, "how?" And then let them continue to make no sense at all.... Then I'll follow up with, "Then why risk lives and spend all this money to spread the gospel?" *crickets*

[LifeCycle]

Another simple way to back them into a corner is asking how much of our salvation can we take credit for? Their answer is ALWAYS, "zero." So I follow up with, "But you're one making the decision, correct?" "Yes." "You certainly blame JimBob for fucking up and making the wrong choice because he goes to hell for all eternity, so you can't have it one way and not the other... Your salvation either rests squarely on your shoulders or it doesn't." "So how much of my salvation is up to me?"

 

And then there's the whole "saved by grace" thing... And I'm like, "But if you have to do something such as "believe" to earn it, it's no longer grace, it's reward. So which is it? Grace or reward?"

 

Face it, salvation is only for those with good decision making skillz. If you only have good bowstaff skillz, sorry, you're fucked.

[antix]

Other moments of doubt: I have 2 friends who are the nicest most genuine people on earth. Neither are christians, except for the going to church once every few months etc. One guy (bisexual) would do anything anyone needed and is just a guy. No evil in this guy what so ever. The other guy, although not religious, went to church for the sake of his kids and he does the once a yr 1 week mission to shitty parts of the country for home repairs etc. Neither of these guys do the good works they do through faith. They are just great people. On the other hand, I will not write a book on the actions of the christians I know, but none of their actions are worthy of being mentioned.

 

How am I suppose to accept the 2 non christians who are great guys are condemned, while the tons of christians I see being complete assholes are going to be saved and rewarded for all etermity?

[Deva]

Christians like John 3:16 so much, but look at it.

 

"For God so loved the world" That is great, but then we find the strings attached "whosoever BELIEVETH in him" - that is not so darn great. For an all loving and all powerful God would certainly be able to demonstrate his love in a better way.

[antix]

For that matter, what about what the extreme protestant churches preach about catholics and eastern orthodox going to hell. Coupled with that: how many people could actually read before the 1800s except the elite??????????? If you were a farmer or blacksmith etc, you might never have heard the message after working 14 hr days 7 days a week and dying at 40.

[LifeCycle]

It may have been noted here already but I wanted to post this in this thread as I've been talking about it with a believer on FB and as simple as it sounds, it's a new revelation to me but someone here inspired more thought on it and I can't remember where I read it.

 

Belief is involuntary. It's not something that we choose.  I can't tell you to believe in unicorns because everything you've experienced in this world tells you they don't exist, thus you can't believe.  The same holds true for this Jesus as God fellow...  It's not that people don't want to believe in him, it's that they can't believe in him. 

 

So it's not really about belief at all...  First, you must have the ability to believe.  This is influenced by many contributing factors that you have no control over.  Again, it's not something we can just do because we want to.  I'd say if you do firmly believe in something many others don't.  It's because you had the ability to believe... Be it a powerful mushroom trip, ignorance or the only true and real encounter of the thing you now believe in.

[mymistake]

Yes.  People do use defense mechanisms to protect their beliefs and they experience cognitive dissonance when their beliefs are wrong.  But this isn't something we have direct control over.  It's not an action.  Belief is more like solving a math problem.  If the problem is too hard or you don't know how to do it you just can't.  Some beliefs are impossible to hold given what an individual has seen.     

[LifeCycle]

Yes.  People do use defense mechanisms to protect their beliefs and they experience cognitive dissonance when their beliefs are wrong.  But this isn't something we have direct control over.  It's not an action.  Belief is more like solving a math problem.  If the problem is too hard or you don't know how to do it you just can't.  Some beliefs are impossible to hold given what an individual has seen.     

Exactly!  Once it's really scrutinized, belief is a horrible mechanism to determine where one spends eternity.  It's really the foundation of the Christianity as well.  Once you take belief away, the stack of cards falls with it. 

[RipVanWinkle]

I agree. That the bible is  the word of god is a concept impossible for a child to challenge because he/she can't understand or read it . As the child grows up and gets an education, he/she still can't read it be because it is too confusing and convoluted. Even a college graduate would have difficulty without researching the bible's origin at the time each of its books were written. Even after extensive education scholars, in good faith, disagree on its meaning. The vast majority of people never read the whole bible, but if they do, they presume it is all true as they have been taught. Nevertheless, they believe or think they believe the bible with all their heart. They believe anyone who doesn't believe it to be literally true is evil. Most people are not good readers and so read very little. So people believe what the bible says is true because of what their pastor or Sunday school teacher tells them without knowing what it actually says. But as adults they will not let a biblical scholar explain it to them, because they already know what it says. But they don't have blind faith; what they believe is damn well true; the bible tells them so. bill

[megasamurai]

Another problem is pragmatically, what's the importance of believing a story. You can believe the Bible and commit terrible atrocities against mankind. You can disbelieve it and be a compassionate person. Why should one be tortured for not believing a story? Sure there's the "God wants to have a relationship with his children" angle, but if your child hated you, would you set them on fire? Would setting them on fire make them love you? The need for salvation from hell shouldn't need to be attained for any reason. No one should be set on fire.

[LifeCycle]

Good stuff.  Here's an analogy I use (I love using analogies to describe Christian doctrine... It really sheds light on just how stupid it is)

 

Here's how I present it to Christians...

 

Imagine a person who is a giver of themselves, highly respected in society, sincere, kind and goes out of their way to take care of the needs of others.  They have a family that loves them and they love just as much.  One night, the the police bust down the door, take this person from their home and to a prison.  They then torment this person... Endlessly.  Their loved ones are so sad as they never know the status of this person and they never hear from them ever again.  Ever.  Why did the police do this?  Was this person a criminal?  Not even close.  They were loved, respected and cherished by many.  The reason the police took this person away was because this person lacked belief in a certain topic.  That's it.  That's all.  And because of that, this person is now undergoing endless torment and agony.

 

What would we think of government that did this?  Would it be acceptable for police to act this way in our society?  No.  But it's completely acceptable for an all-loving and compassionate god to.  Why?

 

How does this make any sense at all?  Yet, this is what the majority of fundamentalist Christians believe of their god.

[megasamurai]

Isn't the Christian God somewhat similair to dictators such as Stalin. If you value anyone or anything else above Stalin, you get sent to the gulag. It just rubs me the wrong way that Christianity enforces restrictions on thoughts and emotions. I don't want to go to a gulag called hell because I love women more than God. I find it odd that I've been wired to feel not only physical attraction to females, but emotional attraction as well. Why torture me for emotions I can't help. Our president doesn't demand "love me more than anyone else, or I'll torture you."

[LifeCycle]

Isn't the Christian God somewhat similair to dictators such as Stalin. If you value anyone or anything else above Stalin, you get sent to the gulag. It just rubs me the wrong way that Christianity enforces restrictions on thoughts and emotions. I don't want to go to a gulag called hell because I love women more than God. I find it odd that I've been wired to feel not only physical attraction to females, but emotional attraction as well. Why torture me for emotions I can't help. Our president doesn't demand "love me more than anyone else, or I'll torture you."

Yup... I agree...  This is why I call Christianity the perpetual guilt trip.  Do what's in your DNA and what comes natural to you and then beg for forgiveness for it...  You're always asking to be forgiven because you're you and it will never stop.  The crux of all this is God made you that way.  Sure they say Adam and Eve caused the fall of man... Well, this is God's game, remember.  These are his rules.  The fall of man is his punishment for disobedience.  Our "sins" are because that's what he used for punishment.

 

So when you fuck up, blame God.  He's ultimately responsible.  His game, his rules. 

 

Such compassion.

[megasamurai]

My thoughts are that if a good God existed, why would he care who or what I love the most. Shouldn't emotional attachment not be coerced?

[LifeCycle]

My thoughts are that if a good God existed, why would he care who or what I love the most. Shouldn't emotional attachment not be coerced?

I agree.