God Can't Be Good, And The Case Of The Bible God, Can't Then Exist. (Thoughts Criticisms, Etc)

[Guest Valk0010]

A thought occurred to me, if God is absolute in his mortality, then how is it he can create a universe with the potential for evil and not violate his limited free will?

Now your getting it!!!

your are forgetting why we have evil in the first place. thats not gods doing. thats his REBELLIOUS creation's doing. apart from god there is no good. so if creation used its free will to obey god, there would be no evil in the creation. the universe is amoral.

Well, most people, say satan was created before the universe. And evil would have had to exist at least as a concept, so satan could get the idea to reject god. Though, in regards to this arguement, the words, satan and universe can be interchangable. It works both ways.

[roadrunner]

A thought occurred to me, if God is absolute in his mortality, then how is it he can create a universe with the potential for evil and not violate his limited free will?

Now your getting it!!!

your are forgetting why we have evil in the first place. thats not gods doing. thats his REBELLIOUS creation's doing. apart from god there is no good. so if creation used its free will to obey god, there would be no evil in the creation. the universe is amoral.

Well, most people, say satan was created before the universe. And evil would have had to exist at least as a concept, so satan could get the idea to reject god. Though, in regards to this arguement, the words, satan and universe can be interchangable. It works both ways.

its a common belief that during eternity past, satan was jealous of god which led to him becoming a "fallen angel". its debatable but lets go with it for the sake of this argument. so this is the first sin EVER which again falls in line with "god's creation using its free will to choose sin over righteousness" even though there were no commandments at that point.

[Guest Valk0010]

A thought occurred to me, if God is absolute in his mortality, then how is it he can create a universe with the potential for evil and not violate his limited free will?

Now your getting it!!!

your are forgetting why we have evil in the first place. thats not gods doing. thats his REBELLIOUS creation's doing. apart from god there is no good. so if creation used its free will to obey god, there would be no evil in the creation. the universe is amoral.

Well, most people, say satan was created before the universe. And evil would have had to exist at least as a concept, so satan could get the idea to reject god. Though, in regards to this arguement, the words, satan and universe can be interchangable. It works both ways.

its a common belief that during eternity past, satan was jealous of god which led to him becoming a "fallen angel". its debatable but lets go with it for the sake of this argument. so this is the first sin EVER which again falls in line with "god's creation using its free will to choose sin over righteousness" even though there were no commandments at that point.

It doesn't actually cause, he would know pre satan or the creation of angels, the consequences of his actions. It also is a nonsequiter to still say the world would be needed. So even if that could apply to satan, what you said, it still means that the earth itself is still under the issue.

 

The nuts and bolts of my argument is not looking to ex post facto rationalize the decision making of the god of the bible, its to use what he says about his nature through the bible and through commonly understood theistic concepts about god, to question the logic of that god's plan and existence before it started. This is key to my point, about god having the ability to to choose. He can choose to not create satan or earth.

 

To think of it one way look at heaven after the end of the bible as Z, and the creation of satan and/or the creation of the world is A or B.

 

I am looking at what happened before A, based off what is known after A supposedly began.

[roadrunner]

..... its to use what he says about his nature through the bible and through commonly understood theistic concepts about god, to question the logic of that god's plan and existence before it started. This is key to my point, about god having the ability to to choose. ....

 

i think thats like saying i shouldn't build a house if I know that one day it will burn down or that an immoral action would occur in that house one day. that thinking skips over the joy that the house gave me while it was standing. and had the people in the house followed the rules it wouldnt have burned down anyway. the universe was created for gods pleasure and he gets that pleasure (at least from a chunk of followers in the usa). also if you DIDNT have the ability to choose, the worship isn't genuine its a dictatorship. yahweh already sent jesus so the law has been fulfilled and now you have a choice.

 

as for eternity past. no one knows for sure. even as a chrtistian i got a huge variance in explanations of what was going on during eternity past. its because people have different interpretations of scripture. here's a video that mocks that. @2:44 this is what Im talking about.

 

 

no xian should ever concede that god "created" evil. based on my personal walk with the air the best point you touched on was the plan. this flies in the face of prayer since humans cannot alter gods plan by simply asking. looking back the only xians i ever talked about omniscience with, all struggled with the idea that "god already knew that". the concept of evil didn't ring true until i started doubting god. only then did really start to think about it.

 

new apologetic arguments are becoming popular that exploit the "god time" concept. through this concept past present and future become "events in real time" for god. its the only way to maintain a freewill and keep the omniscience and divine plan concept alive. it doesn't make a lot of sense but the further we digress from the bible and into speculation the more and more difficult it becomes for a xian to defend that argument.

[Guest Valk0010]

..... its to use what he says about his nature through the bible and through commonly understood theistic concepts about god, to question the logic of that god's plan and existence before it started. This is key to my point, about god having the ability to to choose. ....

 

i think thats like saying i shouldn't build a house if I know that one day it will burn down or that an immoral action would occur in that house one day. that thinking skips over the joy that the house gave me while it was standing. and had the people in the house followed the rules it wouldnt have burned down anyway. the universe was created for gods pleasure and he gets that pleasure (at least from a chunk of followers in the usa). also if you DIDNT have the ability to choose, the worship isn't genuine its a dictatorship. yahweh already sent jesus so the law has been fulfilled and now you have a choice.

 

as for eternity past. no one knows for sure. even as a chrtistian i got a huge variance in explanations of what was going on during eternity past. its because people have different interpretations of scripture. here's a video that mocks that. @2:44 this is what Im talking about.

 

 

no xian should ever concede that god "created" evil. based on my personal walk with the air the best point you touched on was the plan. this flies in the face of prayer since humans cannot alter gods plan by simply asking. looking back the only xians i ever talked about omniscience with, all struggled with the idea that "god already knew that". the concept of evil didn't ring true until i started doubting god. only then did really start to think about it.

 

new apologetic arguments are becoming popular that exploit the "god time" concept. through this concept past present and future become "events in real time" for god. its the only way to maintain a freewill and keep the omniscience and divine plan concept alive. it doesn't make a lot of sense but the further we digress from the bible and into speculation the more and more difficult it becomes for a xian to defend that argument.

I think it might be a good sign, that, when I read this post, I thought. Is this the best they can fucking do!!

 

If god gets pleasure from evil, he is a sadist. I can't believe that kind of god exist and it makes no sense to say that god could be capable of authoring morality. Sadism is to be despised. The house think is a effective analogy is a bit more like, doing something that you know will lead to a terrorist attack. Though, in the case of god it doesn't really work, because he created the framework that blew up in his face. He created us, and created us in the perfect situation to fall and then blames us for it. So that is a bit like building a house, and then giving your worst enemy gasoline and a match and hoping they don't burn it down. Its mega uber dumb.

 

I am aware of the god time thing, but I don't really know how that doesn't change the problem. God would have to be a big idiot to not know, eve will eat the apple or satan would fall.

 

The plan simply fucking blows ass, unless we consider this god to be evil. If this planet was the best he could do, then he shouldn't have done it at all. Again, that seems the most logical conclusion to me, unless this god is evil. And if the god the bible is evil, the bible is one big contradiction.

 

Maybe its hyperrational to say, if you know the house was going to burn down, you shouldn't build it. But that is what I am saying. Its stupidity and a waste. And if applied to god, evil.

 

I am trying to make them concede that there god created evil. They would probably go to there graves denying it.

 

Knowingly creating the opportunity for evil is the same as creating evil as far as I can see (unlike parents say who can't predict or really choose say if there child won't become the next charles manson or osama bin laden). The flaw of evil seems to me in regards to god, inherent in the design. We were created sick and asked to be well as hitchens pointed out. That is evil.

 

Of course one could potentially say, well god didn't know. That could completely be true, but the risk was evil too because, of the potential of not getting any reward.

 

I think I could restate all I have said here in about 7 lines.

 

If god is the most powerful being in the universe and the most intelligent in the universe then he should understand the consequent of his actions and the factors that go into those decisions.

 

He proclaims himself to be be loving and good.

 

If he is loving and good by any dictionary or practical sense of the word, then there should have been a contradiction between his plan and his nature.

 

The contradiction comes from either not understanding what was going to likely happen due to his decision making or not caring.

 

So that means either god is stupid or evil. I think that makes the god of the bible self refuting, because a intelligent being couldn't make that kind of a dumb choice, and a good being couldn't either.

[Guest Valk0010]

ohh btw I loved the video