★ Citsonga ★ Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 I think this is from insecurity with one's own sexuality. I can empathize with this if I think back to my teen years when I was probably as insecure as most kids my age. Later, when I was still an xian, I got roped into going to a gay bar as a friend of a friend was gay. It was my first real experience with gay people as far as I know. I was uncomfortable for a few minutes until one guy saw it in me, laughed, put his arm around me and said, "relax, no one is going to hit on you. We can see who is straight and who is gay." Any fear I had melted right there and I have always felt comfortable around homosexuals since. I rather like hanging around with them as the one's I've been friends with have tended to be fun, interesting and intelligent. I haven't been to a gay bar myself (I haven't been to very many bars at all, in fact), but I do know a few gays, and they are also really good people. If only the anti-gay people would set aside their prejudices and get to know a few gay people personally, they'd have to realize how wrong their assumptions are. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 I was like well lots of things happened that God didn't want. Next time try: "It's funny how what god wants always seems to line up with what certain people want and it's also funny how that's changed over the years given god used to want slavery, used to be opposed to mixed marriages..." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdp Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 I used to think that. X, how weird to contemplate my former views (which actually weren't mine; they were the Church's.) I believed gays were gay just to irritate Gawd and Xians. Xtians think that EVERYTHING that's not Xtian exists solely to mock them and piss them off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 I think this is from insecurity with one's own sexuality. I can empathize with this if I think back to my teen years when I was probably as insecure as most kids my age. Later, when I was still an xian, I got roped into going to a gay bar as a friend of a friend was gay. It was my first real experience with gay people as far as I know. I was uncomfortable for a few minutes until one guy saw it in me, laughed, put his arm around me and said, "relax, no one is going to hit on you. We can see who is straight and who is gay." Any fear I had melted right there and I have always felt comfortable around homosexuals since. I rather like hanging around with them as the one's I've been friends with have tended to be fun, interesting and intelligent. I haven't been to a gay bar myself (I haven't been to very many bars at all, in fact), but I do know a few gays, and they are also really good people. If only the anti-gay people would set aside their prejudices and get to know a few gay people personally, they'd have to realize how wrong their assumptions are. I think that's exactly right. When we lived in DC, at least half our friends were gay. There is just no way you can know gay people and think they "choose" to be that way. They just are just like straight people just are. My wife was the "fag hag". When we walked into the local gay bar, the entire bar would stop and yell "Natasha!" like "Norm!" from Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 I haven't been to a gay bar myself (I haven't been to very many bars at all, in fact), but I do know a few gays, and they are also really good people. If only the anti-gay people would set aside their prejudices and get to know a few gay people personally, they'd have to realize how wrong their assumptions are. I think that's exactly right. When we lived in DC, at least half our friends were gay. There is just no way you can know gay people and think they "choose" to be that way. They just are just like straight people just are. Exactly. I know I didn't choose to be straight, I just am. It's wired in me and I couldn't choose otherwise. How arrogant it would be for me to assume that gays must choose to be gay. The only people that I think could really make a choice would be those who are wired as bi-sexuals, and even they wouldn't be changing their bi-sexual wiring, they would merely be choosing to only act on half of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 I should add one thing to my last post: Even if it was a choice, that wouldn't make it bad. There's no reason to condemn consenting partners for things that aren't harming anyone, regardless of whether or not it's a choice. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Exactly. I know I didn't choose to be straight, I just am. It's wired in me and I couldn't choose otherwise. How arrogant it would be for me to assume that gays must choose to be gay. My buddy Tom, who's as gay as a 3 dollar bill, withheld his orientation and even got engaged in order to appease his father, who was strict Ass of God. He came out only after his dad died. No one chooses that kind of suffering in life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akheia Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 I hope his fiancee was in on the ruse....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 I hope his fiancee was in on the ruse....? I don't believe so. He was trying to be a good xian boy trying to fight his impulses. He's deconverted now, but he was raised pretty strictly religious and this was when he was only 19-20. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 My wife has a cousin whose first husband left her for a man. I never met the guy, but I suspect that he was in a similar situation, getting married in an attempt to try and make himself straight, only to find it to be futile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 The funny thing about this guy is he never told any of us (we worked in the same office) that he was gay even though another co-worker was openly gay and was part of the gang, but it was so obvious we all knew. I had a situation where I needed a place to stay for a month due to the fact the guy whose room I was renting needed my room for a while, so Tom offered to let me stay in his spare room. He pulled me aside and said "I don't tell anyone this, but since we'll be rooming together I should let you know I'm gay." I just laughed. The point is, this guy could in no way be anything other than who he was born as. He was definitely not acting out. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babylonian Dream Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Sorry man. I mean ma'am. I can be just as believeable as them ladyboys in Thailand. They are some of the hottest women though, I swear! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilith666 Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Homophobia also means disliking homosexuality.... it's in the dictionary. "Phobia" means fear, not dislike. Some dictionaries may use a broader definition of "homophobia" simply because it is commonly used in a broader sense, but when you get down to it, that broader usage is actually incorrect. That's why I personally think there needs to be a better term to describe those who disagree with homosexuality without being fearful of it/them. Don't get me wrong, though; I fully disagree with those who oppose gays, and I recognize that some opposers' views probably are based on fear. They're afraid that gayness is breaking down society. So they do fear it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilith666 Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 I haven't been to a gay bar myself (I haven't been to very many bars at all, in fact), but I do know a few gays, and they are also really good people. If only the anti-gay people would set aside their prejudices and get to know a few gay people personally, they'd have to realize how wrong their assumptions are. I think that's exactly right. When we lived in DC, at least half our friends were gay. There is just no way you can know gay people and think they "choose" to be that way. They just are just like straight people just are. Exactly. I know I didn't choose to be straight, I just am. It's wired in me and I couldn't choose otherwise. How arrogant it would be for me to assume that gays must choose to be gay. The only people that I think could really make a choice would be those who are wired as bi-sexuals, and even they wouldn't be changing their bi-sexual wiring, they would merely be choosing to only act on half of it. My bi friend was into guys and girls. She liked to flip around and would flirt with me sometimes. I'm straight (mostly) but I miss that--she moved several states away and I don't have her number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Homophobia also means disliking homosexuality.... it's in the dictionary. "Phobia" means fear, not dislike. Some dictionaries may use a broader definition of "homophobia" simply because it is commonly used in a broader sense, but when you get down to it, that broader usage is actually incorrect. That's why I personally think there needs to be a better term to describe those who disagree with homosexuality without being fearful of it/them. Don't get me wrong, though; I fully disagree with those who oppose gays, and I recognize that some opposers' views probably are based on fear. They're afraid that gayness is breaking down society. So they do fear it. So, it's wrong for them to make their assumptions, but it's ok for you to make your assumptions? I'm telling you, I used to be one of them and it had NOTHING to do with fear for me. Sure, it probably does for some, but for others it doesn't. Broadbrushing them all is no better than when some of them broadbrush gays or any other group they disagree with. Don't bury your head in the sand and pretend that everyone on one side of a particular issue must have the same motivation, because that's completely unrealistic, and it's the sort of thing that fundies do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akheia Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 When I was fundie, in the early/mid 90s, it wasn't about fear for me, either. I saw homosexuality as being no different than, say, adultery or thievery. I objected to the law protecting and advocating sin. I saw society giving my entire religion, my entire value system, a "vote of no confidence" even the. I saw gay rights not as about granting civil liberties and rights to marginalized people but as another encroachment on "values" by a sinless, godless, crazy culture intent on destroying itself. I don't know if or how you'd call that fear. I was horrified and dismayed. But I don't think I was afraid. If I feared anything, it was what God would do to the USA if we allowed gay rights to prevail, about what the USA would become if we continued on its sinful path. Maybe I was afraid of my religion losing its foothold on the "values" of the nation. I don't think I ever really analyzed it that deeply, though, at the time. I don't know if I'd have been capable of such introspection at the time. Being a fundie was crazy easy--very black/white, no grey areas. Homosexuality in the Christian church is a pretty massive grey area--I speak purely of how liberal denominations get around the obvious bigotry in those couple of Bible verses that talk about the topic, not about it being a grey area in the real world. In the real world we know better. But as a fundie I lived in a very opaque bubble. It was hard to maintain my simplistic, childish understanding of the subject, though. I had a gay friend in college around that time who fought "same sex attraction" so hard, so fruitlessly. I wonder sometimes what became of him. Once he'd spent the night on the phone with me sobbing about how he just couldn't control his urges, and it sounded like he was an alcoholic despairing of how booze controlled him to me. I didn't know what to say to him. At the time, reparative therapy wasn't a well-known concept but if he'd known about it, he'd have done anything, tried ANYTHING, to be rid of his curse. He didn't understand why God had chosen him to bear this burden, or why he couldn't just choose to be straight like everybody said gays could. He felt weird and outcast, strange and alienated. I wanted so much to believe it was a choice, but this sweet, slender, handsome blond youth didn't feel like it was and he was living a reality I couldn't even comprehend. If he could have chosen straightness, he'd have done it in a heartbeat. It's cruel to tell someone like him that it's all his fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zephie Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 ZEPHIE, IF DE GAYZ AR ALLOWD TO MARREE, DEN WE AR ENVYTEENG GAWDS JUGAMENT ON DE NAYSHUN!!!!!!!!! CATS WILL MARREE DAWGS, UP WILL BECOME DOWN, AND WE WILL BE REQUIREUD TO PUT BEER IN OUR CEREAL!!! Can I have wine in my cereal instead? I really like wine. It pisses me off that my parents don't even think about things. The prevailing thought is "If the Bible says it then I believe it." Funny enough, when I told mom about God approving of rape she just looked at me like I was crazy. I was like well lots of things happened that God didn't want. Next time try: "It's funny how what god wants always seems to line up with what certain people want and it's also funny how that's changed over the years given god used to want slavery, used to be opposed to mixed marriages..." Yeps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentknight Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 I think a lot of the misunderstanding here is the word "fear". One doesn't have to be physically feeling afraid. It can be more of a sub conciliate fear of what will happen if you allow people to her away with it. Fear for them. Fear for your country. Fear for religion. Maybe that wasn't your motivation but for a lot of people it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 I think a lot of the misunderstanding here is the word "fear". One doesn't have to be physically feeling afraid. It can be more of a sub conciliate fear of what will happen if you allow people to her away with it. Fear for them. Fear for your country. Fear for religion. Maybe that wasn't your motivation but for a lot of people it is. We do have a definition of fear. Regardless, though, your final statements sums it up, and it's exactly what I was saying: For some it's fear, but for others it's not. For further example of where I'm coming from, let me articulate a better reply to Lilith's claim here: They're afraid that gayness is breaking down society. So they do fear it. That's simply not true for all. As for myself, I was of the belief that society was already broken down simply due to not following God. A few gays wouldn't be a threat destined to break down a society that's already broken down. It absolutely was not fear for people such as myself. My former stance against homosexuality was nothing more than simply a (misguided) belief that it was a wrong lifestyle. That's all it was, nothing more. No fear, just a belief. Period. That position doesn't represent all Christians or all gay-rights opposers, of course, and I never said it does. On the other hand, it would be ridiculous to assume that I was the only one like that. There certainly are other anti-gay people who come from a comparable perspective. The anti-gay community is a mixed bag, with some who are homophobes and some who really aren't (but who are still wrong in their bigoted position). I hope that better clarifies my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 I wanted to share this antique propoganda. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x78SU6DoMOk Most of it seems like general safety information that could apply to any situation. However I feel like the first story with "Jimmy" seems like Jimmy is the one who is taking advantage of the Ralph. Sugar daddy anyone? I also wanted to comment that someone mentioned getting to know gays to help people change their mind. I agree with that. However I have met people who have become very close friends with gay people and they still default back to the sin garbage. It's really creepy to encounter this type of person. They spend time with gay friends, invite them into their home and everything but they still hold that nasty "burn in hell" attitude, and they would vote against their friends having the same civil rights as everyone else. It's not often that I encounter people like that anymore, but it used to be quite common. Those are the xians that I detest the most. Dishonest, two faced, hypocrites. Love me or hate me, but just be honest about it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highrishman Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 This could've been referenced in a post prior to mine, but if anyone's ever watched Religulous with Bill Maher it's hilarious. In the mockumentary he is interviewing a christian minister who used to be gay. The guys actually tells Bill that gay people are gay because they have insecurities. Bill says "Have you ever been to a gay pride parade? They don't seem to insecure to me." The movie is a riot. If you enjoy scathing mockumentaries then it's definitely a movie for you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentknight Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 This could've been referenced in a post prior to mine, but if anyone's ever watched Religulous with Bill Maher it's hilarious. In the mockumentary he is interviewing a christian minister who used to be gay. The guys actually tells Bill that gay people are gay because they have insecurities. Bill says "Have you ever been to a gay pride parade? They don't seem to insecure to me." The movie is a riot. If you enjoy scathing mockumentaries then it's definitely a movie for you. I love that movie. It was one of the first things I watched after deciding I was done with church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babylonian Dream Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 This could've been referenced in a post prior to mine, but if anyone's ever watched Religulous with Bill Maher it's hilarious. In the mockumentary he is interviewing a christian minister who used to be gay. The guys actually tells Bill that gay people are gay because they have insecurities. Bill says "Have you ever been to a gay pride parade? They don't seem to insecure to me..'" But they are insecure! They're not securely in the closet! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chikirin Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 IF DE GAYZ AR ALLOWD TO MARREE, DEN WE AR ENVYTEENG GAWDS JUGAMENT ON DE NAYSHUN!!!!!!!!! So it's not really about a zeal for holiness at all, it's more about Christians not wanting to see their new cars and vacation homes get hit by fire and brimstone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chikirin Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 Sorry man. I mean ma'am. I can be just as believeable as them ladyboys in Thailand. They are some of the hottest women though, I swear! We did a mission trip to Thailand when I was a teenager, the locals invited us to a dinner and there was local food (which was too hot for any of us to eat) Thai classical music and dance, and gatoeys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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