Guest Babylonian Dream Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Well said Pudd! Very true. You went deeper at it than me, but I too have had experiences with people with personality disorder. Controlling and manipulative. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted August 7, 2012 Moderator Share Posted August 7, 2012 Thing about people in churches like that is that they never really cared about you, even if you did care about them. They cared about your conformity, take that away you don't exist in their eyes. Pathetic. I copped the same bulshit over my depression, all it ever did was make me worse. . But it's not that they didn't want to care. The primary problem is that the mind-control did not give them permission to care. The God-virus has utterly destroyed their sense of empathy for those outside of their cult. They are likely still hurting and dealing with cognitive dissonance as well. Funny how it never destroyed my capacity to care.....they wanted social acceptance more than they cared about the state of their own heart. Who here has not passed judgement on someone whom they witnessed abandoning faith? Did you know anyone who did that while you were a believer, Galien? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackpudd1n Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Just wow...I never thought about that....just wow. It is eye opening for sure. Yeah, it hit me like a ton of bricks too, when I realised. You'd think in a sermon where he was explaining himself he'd say something like, "I'm sorry I haven't been myself lately", or, "I'm sorry I haven't been up to par", or even, "I'm sorry I haven't really been there for you all lately". But there was none of that. What a cold-hearted individual. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackpudd1n Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Well said Pudd! Very true. You went deeper at it than me, but I too have had experiences with people with personality disorder. Controlling and manipulative. Having a biological mother who is a psychopath kind of alerts you to manipulation, control, and guilt trips pretty quickly. That being said, though, until that volunteering experience, I'd never experienced victimhood as a form of manipulation. It's much more subtle than the forms of manipulation I'd experience previously, and seems to be a lot harder to disengage from. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babylonian Dream Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Well said Pudd! Very true. You went deeper at it than me, but I too have had experiences with people with personality disorder. Controlling and manipulative. Having a biological mother who is a psychopath kind of alerts you to manipulation, control, and guilt trips pretty quickly. That being said, though, until that volunteering experience, I'd never experienced victimhood as a form of manipulation. It's much more subtle than the forms of manipulation I'd experience previously, and seems to be a lot harder to disengage from. Yeah, same here. My mother is a psychopath too, but she was a perpetual victim. She even tried to blame her drinking problem on my being gay, despite her having had that since at least when I was 4 (that I only remember because I came home from school to her drunk passed out on the kitchen floor). There was also the whole thing with my step dad's arm getting cut open because she suspected he was cheating. Somehow it was justified because he had cheated in the past and stressed her out into being afraid he was going to do it again. She never got in trouble for it, my step dad went along with her story, that he cut it open at work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackpudd1n Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Well said Pudd! Very true. You went deeper at it than me, but I too have had experiences with people with personality disorder. Controlling and manipulative. Having a biological mother who is a psychopath kind of alerts you to manipulation, control, and guilt trips pretty quickly. That being said, though, until that volunteering experience, I'd never experienced victimhood as a form of manipulation. It's much more subtle than the forms of manipulation I'd experience previously, and seems to be a lot harder to disengage from. Yeah, same here. My mother is a psychopath too, but she was a perpetual victim. She even tried to blame her drinking problem on my being gay, despite her having had that since at least when I was 4 (that I only remember because I came home from school to her drunk passed out on the kitchen floor). There was also the whole thing with my step dad's arm getting cut open because she suspected he was cheating. Somehow it was justified because he had cheated in the past and stressed her out into being afraid he was going to do it again. She never got in trouble for it, my step dad went along with her story, that he cut it open at work. You know what's really interesting about this, BD? I once had a psychologist tell me that having a mother who was a psychopath would explain why I developed bipolar. She said the prolonged stress of living in such an environment made perfect sense for her of why I developed bipolar disorder. And I just find it really eerie that we both had psychopathic mothers and both developed bipolar. What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GardenerGal Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 d. There are the problems of members in the church that concern me. e. I have lost the social connection at the gym. f. We have a member moving away for a job increasing the burden of non-resident members on my ministry. g. My daughter moved away for nine months with her husband so he can attend firefighting school. h. Some members are not following my teaching. 10. Depression can be the result of increased knowledge (ECC 1:18). Many of the great minds throughout history have suffered from depression. 12. I am likely suffering from adrenal fatigue. I have never fully recovered from the trip to Asia. These are the ones that really stood out to me: d. GUILT TRIP. f. GUILT TRIP AND MANIPULATION g. CONTROL ISSUES h. CONTROL ISSUES, NARCISSISM 10. Narcissism- 'my mind must be great, I must truly knowledgable, because I have depression. Therefore, you ALL should be following everything I say TO THE LETTER. 12. Martyr complex. I've got all the time in the world for people struggling with depression and trying to find their way through. I have none whatsoever for those who use ANY condition, mental or physical, to manipulate or control other people. Manipulation and control issues are hallmarks of a personality disorder, NOT depression. Playing the victim is a very effective form of manipulation, and one that I have experienced first-hand myself. The manipulator will use their condition to gain the empathy and sympathy of others, and then guilt the other person into doing too much for them, using their compassion against them. Not only that, but the true victim, the one being manipulated, also feels terrible every time they have a bad thought about how much the other person is getting them to do, or has a bad thought about the person, or even simply wants to deny a request. I experienced this with a blind woman I was working with as a volunteer. I was only meant to take her shopping for a couple of hours once a fortnight. Those shopping trips turned into six-hour marathons, turned into me getting guilted if I didn't go see her every two days or less, because she was "worried she might have said or done something", wanting constant lifts because she didn't have the money for a cab, despite the 140k sitting in her bank account... But the icing on the cake, was when I dated her neighbour for a few months, and then broke it off after he became abusive one night and wouldn't give me back my cat, Bruce, continually threatening to send him to the pound. I called my dad, he heard everything the guy was screaming at me. I ended up having to get a restraining order, and when we went to court... She turned up to testify that I was the abusive one! It didn't work, though, because I had kept meticulous records of all the harrassment. So no, I have no sympathy for this pastor. His "depression" is merely the latest thing he has thought of to get people to do what he wants and gain greater control over the congregation. I don't deny that pastoring can be a difficult job and that the religion does take a toll on everyone involved; but this goes beyond that. In his desire to prove how many things he is depressed about, the true motivation for his "condition" is shining through, and really validates, to me, everything Nev has been saying. The guy's a creep, Nev. I'm so glad you escaped. You have described in great detail someone I interact with in my day-to-day life. I knew he was manipulating me with his stories since I married my husband and moved here, but there are just so many freakin' enablers in his life that I always seem to be the wretch (wench) in his plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeverAgainV Posted August 8, 2012 Author Share Posted August 8, 2012 d. There are the problems of members in the church that concern me. e. I have lost the social connection at the gym. f. We have a member moving away for a job increasing the burden of non-resident members on my ministry. g. My daughter moved away for nine months with her husband so he can attend firefighting school. h. Some members are not following my teaching. 10. Depression can be the result of increased knowledge (ECC 1:18). Many of the great minds throughout history have suffered from depression. 12. I am likely suffering from adrenal fatigue. I have never fully recovered from the trip to Asia. These are the ones that really stood out to me: d. GUILT TRIP. f. GUILT TRIP AND MANIPULATION g. CONTROL ISSUES h. CONTROL ISSUES, NARCISSISM 10. Narcissism- 'my mind must be great, I must truly knowledgable, because I have depression. Therefore, you ALL should be following everything I say TO THE LETTER. 12. Martyr complex. I've got all the time in the world for people struggling with depression and trying to find their way through. I have none whatsoever for those who use ANY condition, mental or physical, to manipulate or control other people. Manipulation and control issues are hallmarks of a personality disorder, NOT depression. Playing the victim is a very effective form of manipulation, and one that I have experienced first-hand myself. The manipulator will use their condition to gain the empathy and sympathy of others, and then guilt the other person into doing too much for them, using their compassion against them. Not only that, but the true victim, the one being manipulated, also feels terrible every time they have a bad thought about how much the other person is getting them to do, or has a bad thought about the person, or even simply wants to deny a request. I experienced this with a blind woman I was working with as a volunteer. I was only meant to take her shopping for a couple of hours once a fortnight. Those shopping trips turned into six-hour marathons, turned into me getting guilted if I didn't go see her every two days or less, because she was "worried she might have said or done something", wanting constant lifts because she didn't have the money for a cab, despite the 140k sitting in her bank account... But the icing on the cake, was when I dated her neighbour for a few months, and then broke it off after he became abusive one night and wouldn't give me back my cat, Bruce, continually threatening to send him to the pound. I called my dad, he heard everything the guy was screaming at me. I ended up having to get a restraining order, and when we went to court... She turned up to testify that I was the abusive one! It didn't work, though, because I had kept meticulous records of all the harrassment. So no, I have no sympathy for this pastor. His "depression" is merely the latest thing he has thought of to get people to do what he wants and gain greater control over the congregation. I don't deny that pastoring can be a difficult job and that the religion does take a toll on everyone involved; but this goes beyond that. In his desire to prove how many things he is depressed about, the true motivation for his "condition" is shining through, and really validates, to me, everything Nev has been saying. The guy's a creep, Nev. I'm so glad you escaped. You have described in great detail someone I interact with in my day-to-day life. I knew he was manipulating me with his stories since I married my husband and moved here, but there are just so many freakin' enablers in his life that I always seem to be the wretch (wench) in his plan. Maybe you can be a thorn in his side? I hate how those types get away with abusive & manipulative behavior for years. But I think in many cases the best thing to do is to just avoid those types of people because they will not understand if you call them out on it because they are never wrong (in their own minds anyhow)... I don't know if they would change even if others called them out on it because I bet they'd find people who just let them continue to get away with their behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babylonian Dream Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 You know what's really interesting about this, BD? I once had a psychologist tell me that having a mother who was a psychopath would explain why I developed bipolar. She said the prolonged stress of living in such an environment made perfect sense for her of why I developed bipolar disorder. And I just find it really eerie that we both had psychopathic mothers and both developed bipolar. What do you think? It's possible. I never thought about it that way before. I've known people with Bipolar with psychopathic parents and without though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tothemorning Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 I see this in two ways. This pastor is manipulating consciously or subconsciously; either way unexcusable. Secondly, he may really have depression. For him to assess his depression in such a listing means he has incredible awareness or he just did this as a means of using it for a sermon, hence the manipulation motive. If he has depression it may be for good reason; religion will do this to a person. Maybe some day he'll join us here on exchristian. I can understand your pain and pissed-off attitude. There is one that I know who I would not feel like welcoming into our world of 'brites' and freethinkers. He so happens to be a professor at a private A of G college in Texas. I must remember that to hold onto such anger has no benefit to my healing of religious trauma. That being said, I'm still pissed and would like to kick his narcissistic ass. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GardenerGal Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Maybe you can be a thorn in his side? I hate how those types get away with abusive & manipulative behavior for years. But I think in many cases the best thing to do is to just avoid those types of people because they will not understand if you call them out on it because they are never wrong (in their own minds anyhow)... I don't know if they would change even if others called them out on it because I bet they'd find people who just let them continue to get away with their behavior. He does get away with it. His actions have been one of the biggest challenges in our married life, as we are related to him. This also makes it hard to avoid him, but he has pretty much given us no choice. Our last conversation included him admitting to keeping track of our church attendance through another member of our church. That was my last straw. It frustrates me to think about it. Need to go watch the Olympics 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted August 8, 2012 Moderator Share Posted August 8, 2012 Maybe you can be a thorn in his side? I hate how those types get away with abusive & manipulative behavior for years. But I think in many cases the best thing to do is to just avoid those types of people because they will not understand if you call them out on it because they are never wrong (in their own minds anyhow)... I don't know if they would change even if others called them out on it because I bet they'd find people who just let them continue to get away with their behavior. He does get away with it. His actions have been one of the biggest challenges in our married life, as we are related to him. This also makes it hard to avoid him, but he has pretty much given us no choice. Our last conversation included him admitting to keeping track of our church attendance through another member of our church. That was my last straw. It frustrates me to think about it. Need to go watch the Olympics Wow. I kinda outed myself a little to my parents a year or two ago when they realized that I was calling them on Sundays regularly. "Are you not going to church anymore?" Yikes! If only I had thought about that! Here I was with extra time to check up on my parents, and I had failed to realize that they might feel that church was more important. I soon learned that my dad was doing a lot of detective work and spreading rumors about us (probably unintentionally). What a mess... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeverAgainV Posted August 8, 2012 Author Share Posted August 8, 2012 Maybe you can be a thorn in his side? I hate how those types get away with abusive & manipulative behavior for years. But I think in many cases the best thing to do is to just avoid those types of people because they will not understand if you call them out on it because they are never wrong (in their own minds anyhow)... I don't know if they would change even if others called them out on it because I bet they'd find people who just let them continue to get away with their behavior. He does get away with it. His actions have been one of the biggest challenges in our married life, as we are related to him. This also makes it hard to avoid him, but he has pretty much given us no choice. Our last conversation included him admitting to keeping track of our church attendance through another member of our church. That was my last straw. It frustrates me to think about it. Need to go watch the Olympics Maybe you can be a thorn in his side? I hate how those types get away with abusive & manipulative behavior for years. But I think in many cases the best thing to do is to just avoid those types of people because they will not understand if you call them out on it because they are never wrong (in their own minds anyhow)... I don't know if they would change even if others called them out on it because I bet they'd find people who just let them continue to get away with their behavior. He does get away with it. His actions have been one of the biggest challenges in our married life, as we are related to him. This also makes it hard to avoid him, but he has pretty much given us no choice. Our last conversation included him admitting to keeping track of our church attendance through another member of our church. That was my last straw. It frustrates me to think about it. Need to go watch the Olympics oh when you are related it makes it worse...you can choose your friends, but you can't choose your family. Avoid him as much as you can, who needs the frustration?Yeah we've been having a good time watching the Olympics this year! Love it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galien Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Thing about people in churches like that is that they never really cared about you, even if you did care about them. They cared about your conformity, take that away you don't exist in their eyes. Pathetic. I copped the same bulshit over my depression, all it ever did was make me worse. . But it's not that they didn't want to care. The primary problem is that the mind-control did not give them permission to care. The God-virus has utterly destroyed their sense of empathy for those outside of their cult. They are likely still hurting and dealing with cognitive dissonance as well. Funny how it never destroyed my capacity to care.....they wanted social acceptance more than they cared about the state of their own heart. Who here has not passed judgement on someone whom they witnessed abandoning faith? Did you know anyone who did that while you were a believer, Galien? Plenty of people did that but I never did. A person's value to me has nothing to do with what they believe, neither when I was a christian, nor later. I kind of took that ye without sin cast the first stone thing pretty seriously. Not a christian now, but I appreciate the principle more than ever. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackbauer Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 What makes victim manipulators so despicable is that there are genuine victims out there. When someone actually does need help, people who have experienced first hand manipulation may be reluctant to help. I also blame the Christian mindset for making people more vulnerable to manipulators. Even if people realize they're being manipulated, they may still be guilted into helping people out of fear of damnation. After all, when you're a Christian, you're told that you're a sinner too and aren't any better than the worst of humanity. It also encourages that annoying martyr mindset, making it seem like a virtue instead of unhealthy. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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