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Goodbye Jesus

Christians Have A Point


Guest Babylonian Dream

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Don't really agree with your post Silent Knight. It depends on your definitions.

 

faith = belief in something without any evidence or for no good reason.

Originally, no. And currently, it depends. Faith actually does mean trust. Its also a term used by many a theist to mean trust.

 

Man.... I've practically all but given them a hand in their arguement, and still not one christian has responded to this thread? Why?

 

Hi Babylonian Dream. The definitions I gave were my definitions. My question is: if faith means trust, why don't they just use the word "trust"? When Jesus (allegedly God incarnate) was on the cross and said (allegedly) "My God. Why have you forsaken me?" is he really trusting in God? And he's supposed to be God himself! Was Jesus a self-doubter? It makes no sense. And I still stick to my definition of faith - belief without evidence (and often in the face of evidence to the contrary). The more difficult something is to believe, the greater the faith required to believe it!

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Faith is just a translation of the phrase, "I hope this is true."

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I really think screwing around with the definitions of words is characteristic of all religions. I haven't studied a single one that doesn't do it.

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Scientific theories are based on mountains of observable facts. In a nut shell, a scientific theory has predictive power. Failure to predict would disprove some or potentially, though not probably, all of the theory. Religion, by comparison is not a theory in the scientific sense of the word, but is instead pure conjecture. No one need have faith in a theory. You can trust in its predictive capability and the fact that it is rigorously tested, but it's not just an educated guess.

 

I agree with this mostly. I think that in some religions you can "test" certain practices to see if they deliver what they promise. After a few years though, I am not willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

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Post nuked due to operator ineptness.

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I think I understand what the OP means. The Xians are saying that one has to have faith to believe there is a God, and also has to have faith to believe there is none -- because neither position can be proven conclusively by scientific evidence. We diests have an easier time against the Xians in these arguments. We believe there is a God, supreme being, or supreme force or power. But we believe we are incapable of understanding the exact nature of same. This is much different from being an Xian. Xians believe they know the details down to a gnat's eye! They rely on the Bible (which was put together from a bunch of old books by a bunch of guys in the 4th century). Some important books were rejected, and some nonsense was put in. Further, the current Bible is full of mistranslations from the oldest texts and include fictional stories Xians take as absolute fact. Their is no mention that Jesus even existed except in the Bible, so he may have been a fictional character also. The more one studies Biblical history, the more one knows that it has too many defects to accurately define the details of any supreme power. Some Orthodox Xians (such as Catholics) also rely on pronouncements from their church leaders, relying on faulty Biblical translation and interpretation that they say make these leaders some sort of supermen. Now, that takes a high degree of faith!

 

Diests in history include Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Ben Franklin, and pretty much the list of the founding fathers. Diests don't have to deny that some degree of faith plays a part in their belief, because it does. But Deism embraces advancing science and does not reject it as Xians historically have done. Ever notice how atoms, solar systems and galaxies are all based on the same design of spheres of matter revolving around a larger sphere of matter? I rest my case.

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You look around and see you are a person living on earth. Does it take faith to believe what your eyes tell you? I think not. Atheists are following the path that is best supported by the evidence. Faith is ignoring evidence. These are very different things.

 

"I" do the same thing in a dream. I look around and interact with the earth and people. Yet the whole dream is total BS. My eyes deceive me. :-) So, maybe in this consensus reality I am deceived once again. So I suppose from this I could just tell a christian that I have no faith at all. I have no faith that Jesus ever existed, nor that anyone or anything actually exists now or ever existed in a fully objective reality outside my conscious awareness. So, little christian believer, if time truly existed (and it doesn't) you'd be wasting mine right now so eff off. lol.

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I'll say they do have one good point, that you do need to have "faith", a groundless belief, to believe that you know that we're living and experiencing through our senses an actual, objective universe, in which we subjectively experience; And that it actually exists outside our minds.

 

I suppose we could be characters in a unicorn's dream, or maybe we are god entertaining himself by playing human, or perhaps we're an alien breeding experiment. We can't disprove any of those (or other scenarios) but why should we entertain those ideas? Accepting that which we perceive as real is the only view we can work with. If there is an undetectable realm of "something else," it doesn't seem to affect our daily reality and I don't see why it would be relevant.

 

If you feel drawn to entertain those thoughts of god entertaining himself by playing human then do. If they don't interest you then why bother?

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A human can't live a productive life if they don't take things on faith. If we ignore the fact that we can't really trust our senses, so in essence we trust our sense on faith, we still believe certain things on faith to get through our daily lives. However, we based these assumptions on logic and observed experience. Most of us don't know how a lot of machines in our lives work, but we know a logical explanation told to us by the people who do. We don't need the details... we see the results.

 

Religion on the other hand is faith based on something that produces no tangible results. It's the opposite of logic, as it even causes one to ignore counter-evidence in favor of the belief that has no result to confirm its veracity.

 

I've heard belief in science called a religion. It's true that believing in certain scientific theories that can't be tested at this time may be seen as having faith in the unknown. However, I don't know any scientists that would stick to those theories if a better one came along, or the theory was disproven. Relgions will happily stick to their theory, because it's "magic".

 

Don't really agree with your post Silent Knight. It depends on your definitions.

 

faith = belief in something without any evidence or for no good reason.

trust = belief in something with some evidence although it may be insufficient to prove beyond doubt

hypothesis = scientific idea, worthy of exploration

theory = scientific explanation that fits the facts/ evidence e.g. theory of evolution, theory of gravity etc.

 

I don't have faith in anything. Faith is gullibility.

 

When an xian says an atheist has faith, it's really sorta lame. Do I really sit there prior to the dawn praying to Lord Dawkins of Atheism that the sun rises in the next hour? Do I even assume it? No, if something works, it will most likely work again so I 'DONT THINK ABOUT IT.' If someday I open the front door and notice that my house is floating in the nether realms then I'll adjust my lifestyle accordingly. But so far there has always been an outside to experience whether I prayed about it or not.

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Guest Valk0010

You would think, any christian who uses the phrases, "atheists have more faith then us" would jump at the chance to be atheists after all faith is a virtue(har har har).

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You would think, any christian who uses the phrases, "atheists have more faith then us" would jump at the chance to be atheists after all faith is a virtue(har har har).

 

Never thought of that one.

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The Xians are saying that one has to have faith to believe there is a God,

 

How could you believe in something that offers no evidence without faith?

 

 

and also has to have faith to believe there is none -- because neither position can be proven conclusively by scientific evidence.

 

Most atheists don't take the position that god doesn't exist, given the fact that it's difficult/impossible to prove a negative. Rather, they take the position of 'no faith.' IOW, we/they just don't believe in god as we have not been offered anything like a valid reason to do so. This is different from taking the positive position and stating there is no god.

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Hi Babylonian Dream. The definitions I gave were my definitions. My question is: if faith means trust, why don't they just use the word "trust"? When Jesus (allegedly God incarnate) was on the cross and said (allegedly) "My God. Why have you forsaken me?" is he really trusting in God? And he's supposed to be God himself! Was Jesus a self-doubter? It makes no sense. And I still stick to my definition of faith - belief without evidence (and often in the face of evidence to the contrary). The more difficult something is to believe, the greater the faith required to believe it!

 

Yeah, I agree with your principal. I was just saying if you want to split hairs, then technically every bit of information you take in with your senses you have to have faith in, because you can't know for sure that your senses are operating correctly. This in no way agrees with christians - their faith is layering the unbelievable on top of that.

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then technically every bit of information you take in with your senses you have to have faith in, because you can't know for sure that your senses are operating correctly.

 

I predict if I let go of the coin in my hand, it will fall. I predict if I do this 1 million times, the coin will fall 100% of the time. How are my senses unpredictable here? What faith am I employing here given I have a reasonable understanding of gravity and know the nature of an object that is heavier than air, such as a coin and how it will respond when it is not supported.

 

My senses may not be able to measure reality with 100% accuracy, but there are many things that I can be certain of without employing even mustard seed portion of faith.

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then technically every bit of information you take in with your senses you have to have faith in, because you can't know for sure that your senses are operating correctly.

 

I predict if I let go of the coin in my hand, it will fall. I predict if I do this 1 million times, the coin will fall 100% of the time. How are my senses unpredictable here? What faith am I employing here given I have a reasonable understanding of gravity and know the nature of an object that is heavier than air, such as a coin and how it will respond when it is not supported.

 

My senses may not be able to measure reality with 100% accuracy, but there are many things that I can be certain of without employing even mustard seed portion of faith.

 

that's not what i mean... i mean more like "The Matrix" style.. you don't know that ANYTHING you experience is REAL technically... much like you can't prove you see the same color for "blue" as I see. Like I said, I'm not arguing that atheists have "faith" in the way christians say... I'm saying that all of us at a certain point have to accept certain things in order to move on with our life. It's a technicality, nothing more.

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It just seems to me that the word faith is rendered almost meaningless if it is applied to trusting that something isn't true that there is no evidence for. If this were the case, I'd have to have faith that Santa Clause is a fictional character and not a real guy who lives in the North Pole.

 

I agree with you that our senses are imperfect and that we perceive only a small fraction of this world. For instance, individuals, without instruments, can't perceive radio waves, gamma waves, etc... nor, as you say, we may both perceive colors differently, etc... But generally, an objective reality exists that we can all share. If this were not so, bridges would collapse because engineers each perceive a different reality, etc...

 

I'm getting nit picky here because the word faith has been misapplied and christians have equivocated with this word much in the same way they equivocate when they use the word theory as applied to evolution. It's a cheap debate tactic and I don't think we should acquiesce to it giving them ground that they haven't earned. JMO. :)

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It just seems to me that the word faith is rendered almost meaningless if it is applied to trusting that something isn't true that there is no evidence for. If this were the case, I'd have to have faith that Santa Clause is a fictional character and not a real guy who lives in the North Pole.

 

I agree with you that our senses are imperfect and that we perceive only a small fraction of this world. For instance, individuals, without instruments, can't perceive radio waves, gamma waves, etc... nor, as you say, we may both perceive colors differently, etc... But generally, an objective reality exists that we can all share. If this were not so, bridges would collapse because engineers each perceive a different reality, etc...

 

I'm getting nit picky here because the word faith has been misapplied and christians have equivocated with this word much in the same way they equivocate when they use the word theory as applied to evolution. It's a cheap debate tactic and I don't think we should acquiesce to it giving them ground that they haven't earned. JMO. smile.png

 

That's assuming the engineers and bridges are real too. Everything may just be a dream! *starts a nhilistic "nothing is real" religion* ;)

 

But, Indeed, I agree. There's no reason to believe our world ISN'T real... so we don't need to bother worrying about it. but I always imagine it must be really hard for people who suffer from some kind of insanity that leads to a break from the real world. It must be awfully difficult having people tell you what you see isn't there.

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That's assuming the engineers and bridges are real too. Everything may just be a dream! *starts a nhilistic "nothing is real" religion* wink.png

 

Yes, but again, like I said, I don't have to have faith that Santa is just a fictional character. I also don't have to have faith that we are not living in a Matrix. See?

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Yes, but again, like I said, I don't have to have faith that Santa is just a fictional character. I also don't have to have faith that we are not living in a Matrix. See?

 

yes, was never disagreeing with any of that.

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Guest Babylonian Dream

Did any of you see "Through the Wormhole" on Science Channel last night? It showed how our brains create order out of chaos and at times see things that aren't really there. A very good show on this point. The name of the show was 'Did we invent God?'

 

It goes directly to many of the questions posed here and the scientific process of our brain to create a god to fill in the missing parts or when we don't know the answers.

I was going to, but fell asleep watching that crazy show that came before it. I wish I did. I wish I didn't miss it. I love that show!

Don't really agree with your post Silent Knight. It depends on your definitions.

 

faith = belief in something without any evidence or for no good reason.

Originally, no. And currently, it depends. Faith actually does mean trust. Its also a term used by many a theist to mean trust.

 

Man.... I've practically all but given them a hand in their arguement, and still not one christian has responded to this thread? Why?

 

Hi Babylonian Dream. The definitions I gave were my definitions. My question is: if faith means trust, why don't they just use the word "trust"? When Jesus (allegedly God incarnate) was on the cross and said (allegedly) "My God. Why have you forsaken me?" is he really trusting in God? And he's supposed to be God himself! Was Jesus a self-doubter? It makes no sense. And I still stick to my definition of faith - belief without evidence (and often in the face of evidence to the contrary). The more difficult something is to believe, the greater the faith required to believe it!

I see. Well... why use the word "trust" and not "faith"? Why use "homosexual" instead of "gay"? They're synonyms. To be honest though, they use "faith" to be more vague, so they can use more than one definition at one time. Because they also want to use "faith" to mean "loyalty", don't forget!

 

To be honest though, even if they did say "trust", the Bible said Jesus "Is coming soon", therefore after 2000 years, its violated that trust, so the Bible lost any trust it could have. Same with its false renditions of history.

I think I understand what the OP means. The Xians are saying that one has to have faith to believe there is a God, and also has to have faith to believe there is none -- because neither position can be proven conclusively by scientific evidence.

Not my point. Actually, if there is a God, that god would have to go by the definitions the hypothesizer sets forth. Being that they are referring to the Biblical one, his existence is testable, and has been for a very very long time. In fact, there was an ancient greek who discovered that the earth was round, hence refuting the existence of the creator of "this flat earth".

 

Also, you can't prove a negative. In order to say something exists, you have to have evidence. Without evidence, it doesn't exist (at least as far as we're concerned), and is just a hypothetical until proven otherwise.

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Guest Babylonian Dream

You look around and see you are a person living on earth. Does it take faith to believe what your eyes tell you? I think not. Atheists are following the path that is best supported by the evidence. Faith is ignoring evidence. These are very different things.

 

"I" do the same thing in a dream. I look around and interact with the earth and people. Yet the whole dream is total BS. My eyes deceive me. :-) So, maybe in this consensus reality I am deceived once again.

This is the point I said they have. This could also just all be a dream, be completely BS. Though as others have said, as far as we know, this reality is testable, and seems like the real deal. Its definitely more consistent than a dream. So I don't think its a dream. So by the definition of "trust", I do "trust" that this objective reality is real.

 

I was trying to get christians to respond though....

 

SilentKnight with his matrix thing explained what I mean, and Vigile hits on why its useless.

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You look around and see you are a person living on earth. Does it take faith to believe what your eyes tell you? I think not. Atheists are following the path that is best supported by the evidence. Faith is ignoring evidence. These are very different things.

 

"I" do the same thing in a dream. I look around and interact with the earth and people. Yet the whole dream is total BS. My eyes deceive me. :-) So, maybe in this consensus reality I am deceived once again.

This is the point I said they have. This could also just all be a dream, be completely BS. Though as others have said, as far as we know, this reality is testable, and seems like the real deal. Its definitely more consistent than a dream. So I don't think its a dream. So by the definition of "trust", I do "trust" that this objective reality is real.

 

I was trying to get christians to respond though....

 

SilentKnight with his matrix thing explained what I mean, and Vigile hits on why its useless.

 

Yes. To use an apt phrase for this site.. I was playing "devil's advocate".

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Guest Babylonian Dream

Yes. To use an apt phrase for this site.. I was playing "devil's advocate".

I was too by saying they had a point. I was doing it, because I kind of like Richard Dawkin's friendly debate style. Alot of people think he's hard on theists, but he's actually very friendly towards them and doesn't really get rough on them.

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Every now and then, especially when debating with them, you'll hear a christian say "atheists have faith". Then to prove this, they'll dive into philosophical questions on how you know reality (if they're smart enough to do so). I'll say they do have one good point, that you do need to have "faith", a groundless belief, to believe that you know that we're living and experiencing through our senses an actual, objective universe, in which we subjectively experience; And that it actually exists outside our minds.

 

However, it doesn't logically follow, that that assumption we all make (in reality, we kinda have to), opens up an excuse to make an assumption that God exists based on your percieved experiences. One could argue that you could use that for YOU and YOU ALONE to believe, but then again, there are delusional people out there with lots of fbeliefs. Charles Manson believed he was Jesus incarnate, as did Jim Jones and David Koresh. And in that case, I don't care what you personally believe.

 

There are only 2 basic assumptions that I make:

 

1) Logic is valid, despite the fact that I can't prove it (without circular reasoning/logic).

 

Indeed, we all have to make this assumption! For in order to prove me or anyone wrong, you'd need to use logic! There's no escaping it!

 

2) That there is an objective reality in which we experience subjectively.

 

While I think that our experience of this objective reality isn't truly objective, its limited by what we've evolved to be able to understand with time with our evolution.

 

Indeed, you too have no choice but to draw this assumption! It too could be wrong, but neither of us can believe it isn't! That's why we hold those assumptions! The same reason you do!

 

Assumptions are made when we've got no other option but to make them. Without an Objective reality, and without Logic, we can't really get very far. The difference between this and the belief in a god you experience subjectively, is that reality and logic are inescapeable (granted your mind isn't hindered by medical conditions). Belief in God on the other hand, quite frankly, is. So its not a valid assumption.

 

Beginning to realize most of what Christians say or believe is bullshit:

 

1) Gays are only one percent (sorry xians, it is a lot more)

2) Women who have abortions are psychologically scarred and will go through depression. (All the lady's I know who had abortions, are happy with the decision)

3) God wants you to be wealthy (Where the fuck do they get ideas like this)

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