VacuumFlux Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 I'm all for a welfare state, higher taxes for the rich, lower to none for the poor. If god won't help out the needy then we should, I'm also for taking measures to lower the birth rates (even go negative), more focus on global warming and more spending on the space program. I find it pretty pathetic that the US is behind most Europe, Canada and Japan with things like health care. This is where I get lost the in tax debate: The top ~10% of earners pay ~70% of the taxes, and the bottom ~50% paying nothing. How much more do the rich need to pay? What would that accomplish? And wouldn't this continue create an entitlement society where the poor people have no incentive to climb the ladder and the rich people have less incentive to start businesses to employ the poor people? Perhaps I'm missing something here. Educate me...I'm asking seriously. Check the statistics (I'll try to remember to look some up when I have time). That top 10% who pays 70% of the taxes - do they own more or less than 70% of the GDP? I think your logic would be convincing if everyone were lower or upper middle class. Problem is, things get weird at the extremes. On the poor end, I used to believe that a lot of poor people are lazy or just don't know how to budget. Then I learned that poor people can't afford to budget. I am middle class enough to have the luxury of spending more in the short term so that I can save in the long term (like buying bulk items because the unit cost is cheaper that way). Someone who is very poor doesn't have the slush money on hand to pay for that, and gets stuck actually spending more than someone who's richer. There are certainly lazy or stupid people who end up poor, but being poor isn't always a moral failure and hard work doesn't always get you out of poverty. This doesn't encourage anyone to work harder, it only encourages them to become criminals. On the rich end, money is power. Money buys you influence in congress to get tax loopholes written in. Money gets the regulators to overlook your abuses of the system. And the really really rich people don't necessarily reinvest their money and become job creators. Here's a good graph showing that trickle-down economics isn't working: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser01 Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 i became quite moderate honestly, but i wouldnt call what i once held a political position, i would sooner call it republican fanatasism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblueep Posted August 8, 2012 Author Share Posted August 8, 2012 Where are you getting those statics? The top 10% makes about 75% of the money which is highly unequal and the other 90% makes the small quarter or third part of the pie. http://en.wikipedia....ealth,_2007.jpg http://www.motherjon...ica-chart-graph Depends where you look and if you are evaluating income or net worth. It's hard to knows who's statistics to believe. What do you think is an appropriate tax rate for the rich? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeasabird Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 I'm all for a welfare state, higher taxes for the rich, lower to none for the poor. If god won't help out the needy then we should, I'm also for taking measures to lower the birth rates (even go negative), more focus on global warming and more spending on the space program. I find it pretty pathetic that the US is behind most Europe, Canada and Japan with things like health care. This is where I get lost the in tax debate: The top ~10% of earners pay ~70% of the taxes, and the bottom ~50% paying nothing. How much more do the rich need to pay? What would that accomplish? And wouldn't this continue create an entitlement society where the poor people have no incentive to climb the ladder and the rich people have less incentive to start businesses to employ the poor people? Perhaps I'm missing something here. Educate me...I'm asking seriously. That's only half the story. They pay 70% of the taxes sure, but they make like 95% of the money. Now do you start to see the discrepancy? What are the two basic principles of the game of Monopoly? Everybody starts on a level playing field, and in the end one person owns everything. This will be some good reading for you: http://www2.ucsc.edu...wer/wealth.html The top ~70% make about ~40% of the money. I will read the link. Thanks. That's an impossible statistic. It would be like saying the shortest 10% of Americans make up 25% of the total height. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeasabird Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 J - make sure when you read be keen to note the differences between income and wealth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblueep Posted August 8, 2012 Author Share Posted August 8, 2012 I'm all for a welfare state, higher taxes for the rich, lower to none for the poor. If god won't help out the needy then we should, I'm also for taking measures to lower the birth rates (even go negative), more focus on global warming and more spending on the space program. I find it pretty pathetic that the US is behind most Europe, Canada and Japan with things like health care. This is where I get lost the in tax debate: The top ~10% of earners pay ~70% of the taxes, and the bottom ~50% paying nothing. How much more do the rich need to pay? What would that accomplish? And wouldn't this continue create an entitlement society where the poor people have no incentive to climb the ladder and the rich people have less incentive to start businesses to employ the poor people? Perhaps I'm missing something here. Educate me...I'm asking seriously. Check the statistics (I'll try to remember to look some up when I have time). That top 10% who pays 70% of the taxes - do they own more or less than 70% of the GDP? I think your logic would be convincing if everyone were lower or upper middle class. Problem is, things get weird at the extremes. On the poor end, I used to believe that a lot of poor people are lazy or just don't know how to budget. Then I learned that poor people can't afford to budget. I am middle class enough to have the luxury of spending more in the short term so that I can save in the long term (like buying bulk items because the unit cost is cheaper that way). Someone who is very poor doesn't have the slush money on hand to pay for that, and gets stuck actually spending more than someone who's richer. There are certainly lazy or stupid people who end up poor, but being poor isn't always a moral failure and hard work doesn't always get you out of poverty. This doesn't encourage anyone to work harder, it only encourages them to become criminals. On the rich end, money is power. Money buys you influence in congress to get tax loopholes written in. Money gets the regulators to overlook your abuses of the system. And the really really rich people don't necessarily reinvest their money and become job creators. Here's a good graph showing that trickle-down economics isn't working: I guess I'm just not sure how you fix it without breaking it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblueep Posted August 8, 2012 Author Share Posted August 8, 2012 I'm all for a welfare state, higher taxes for the rich, lower to none for the poor. If god won't help out the needy then we should, I'm also for taking measures to lower the birth rates (even go negative), more focus on global warming and more spending on the space program. I find it pretty pathetic that the US is behind most Europe, Canada and Japan with things like health care. This is where I get lost the in tax debate: The top ~10% of earners pay ~70% of the taxes, and the bottom ~50% paying nothing. How much more do the rich need to pay? What would that accomplish? And wouldn't this continue create an entitlement society where the poor people have no incentive to climb the ladder and the rich people have less incentive to start businesses to employ the poor people? Perhaps I'm missing something here. Educate me...I'm asking seriously. That's only half the story. They pay 70% of the taxes sure, but they make like 95% of the money. Now do you start to see the discrepancy? What are the two basic principles of the game of Monopoly? Everybody starts on a level playing field, and in the end one person owns everything. This will be some good reading for you: http://www2.ucsc.edu...wer/wealth.html The top ~70% make about ~40% of the money. I will read the link. Thanks. That's an impossible statistic. It would be like saying the shortest 10% of Americans make up 25% of the total height. That should have read the top ~10% (who pay ~70% of the taxes) make ~40% of the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FeelHappy Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Even then they hoard it and become richer and richer while the lower middle class and poor have zero chance to save. The rich used to pay 70-90% taxes, now its about 35% and even less once they get through their loop holes. I'd never think that 90% is a fair amount to pay but I think they should pay more. There are people smarter than me who can figure these things out, I just know that since we've lowered the rich tax rate we've seen wealth inequality spirial out of control. One thing's apparent wealth doesn't trickle down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblueep Posted August 8, 2012 Author Share Posted August 8, 2012 J - make sure when you read be keen to note the differences between income and wealth. Right, there are two issues. 1. I don't know how anyone could say that the % of taxes paid versus the % of income is unfair. 2. Wealth is another matter. The %s are vastly different. The only way to "fix" this discrepancy would seem to be to seize the wealth, and I don't think most Americans would agree with that. How much of the wealth is due to compound interest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblueep Posted August 8, 2012 Author Share Posted August 8, 2012 Even then they hoard it and become richer and richer while the lower middle class and poor have zero chance to save. The rich used to pay 70-90% taxes, now its about 35% and even less once they get through their loop holes. I'd never think that 90% is a fair amount to pay but I think they should pay more. There are people smarter than me who can figure these things out, I just know that since we've lowered the rich tax rate we've seen wealth inequality spirial out of control. One thing's apparent wealth doesn't trickle down. But you are talking about individual tax rates, not the % of the overall tax burden. The rich pay the overwhelming vast majority of taxes, with the top 10% paying a full 70% of the taxes collected. That's why I think this discussion is so hard in general for people to have. Nobody is talking apples to apples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblueep Posted August 8, 2012 Author Share Posted August 8, 2012 I'm open to changing my mind, and I'm very middle class in case you were wondering Thanks for the thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djoker Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 I think about politics frequently, but since I'm young, I try not to get too opinionated about things. My political leanings have been relatively the same since before my deconversion. I don't like to define myself, though, because I like to think that I'm open to persuasion on any given topic given a good argument. The only things that I am completely positive about are that I am pro gay marriage and pro-choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramen666 Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Thing is I don't get is how can an Ex-Christian support the GOP/right wing politics. That doesn't make sense one single bit when the right wing uses the same tactics that the church uses (use xenophobia, paranoia, hate towards those who disagree with them), pushes hate like the church, appeals to the lowest common denomenator in this country. I seriously don't get that one bit, I can get the "small government" arugments and that is nice and all, BUT the GOP is not the party of small government and freedom. Then we have Libertarians which are essentially Republicans parroting Fox News/Rush Limbaugh rhetoric who just use the poor/government as a scapegoat for all our problems while ignoring the reality, I am not saying Ex-Christians should be left BUT what I am saying how in the hell can an Ex-Christian support the right honestly? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted August 8, 2012 Moderator Share Posted August 8, 2012 Thing is I don't get is how can an Ex-Christian support the GOP/right wing politics. That doesn't make sense one single bit when the right wing uses the same tactics that the church uses (use xenophobia, paranoia, hate towards those who disagree with them), pushes hate like the church, appeals to the lowest common denomenator in this country. I seriously don't get that one bit, I can get the "small government" arugments and that is nice and all, BUT the GOP is not the party of small government and freedom. Then we have Libertarians which are essentially Republicans parroting Fox News/Rush Limbaugh rhetoric who just use the poor/government as a scapegoat for all our problems while ignoring the reality, I am not saying Ex-Christians should be left BUT what I am saying how in the hell can an Ex-Christian support the right honestly? What Fox News/Rush Limbaugh rhetoric have you heard from Libertarians? I haven't heard anything from Libertarians in a long time, unless you still consider Ron Paul a Libertarian, which I do, and I do not hear him spouting Fox News/Rush Limbaugh rhetoric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramen666 Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 For starters, look here at most of the Ex-Christians that call themselves "Libertarians" and how the use word for word rhetoric that they got off the radio from Rush Limbaugh/Fox News. Hell they even support things that go against their best interest if it benefits their corporate masters (much like Republicans). Many people on here know that, it is not just me that sees that. That is the first place to start, the second place to start is look at the Libertarian "think tanks" and special interest groups, for example CATO, Freedom Works, Americans for Prosperity, Tea Party (technically a Libertarian started movement which became a GOP movement). Modern day Libertarians have been embedded with rhetoric by corporations (again to get votes plain and simple), to go against their best interests and support non-Libertarian ideals. It all comes from the who is funding these Libertarian organizations and spoon feeding them what to think. However there is a lot wrong with Libertarianism (this is just the tip because I am not going even into detail about the unrealistic world view they have based on utopian thinking), but the first thing is showing how little difference there is between Libertarians and Republicans, not much especially today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted August 9, 2012 Moderator Share Posted August 9, 2012 The fact that Republicans have been giving lip-service to libertarian ideals does not equate Libertarians with current-day corporate Republocrats. Fox News has always hated Ron Paul as much as CNN has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramen666 Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Republicans are not giving lip service to Libertarians, it is the other way around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted August 9, 2012 Moderator Share Posted August 9, 2012 For starters, look here at most of the Ex-Christians that call themselves "Libertarians" and how the use word for word rhetoric that they got off the radio from Rush Limbaugh/Fox News. Hell they even support things that go against their best interest if it benefits their corporate masters (much like Republicans). Many people on here know that, it is not just me that sees that. That is the first place to start, the second place to start is look at the Libertarian "think tanks" and special interest groups, for example CATO, Freedom Works, Americans for Prosperity, Tea Party (technically a Libertarian started movement which became a GOP movement). Modern day Libertarians have been embedded with rhetoric by corporations (again to get votes plain and simple), to go against their best interests and support non-Libertarian ideals. It all comes from the who is funding these Libertarian organizations and spoon feeding them what to think. However there is a lot wrong with Libertarianism (this is just the tip because I am not going even into detail about the unrealistic world view they have based on utopian thinking), but the first thing is showing how little difference there is between Libertarians and Republicans, not much especially today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramen666 Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Fine. You are right Libertarian/Republican rhetoric don't cross over at all. Libertarians have not (in)directly supported the GOP at all since Obama has won. Libertarian think tanks are not funded by the same people who donate to the GOP, fund right wing astroturf and push the corporate agenda. There is plenty wrong with Libertarians, but modern day Libertarians especially on this website, are not too much different from Republicans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ro-bear Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 I was an atheist long before I cared about politics. So I suppose it had no effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted August 9, 2012 Moderator Share Posted August 9, 2012 Fine. You are right Libertarian/Republican rhetoric don't cross over at all. Libertarians have not (in)directly supported the GOP at all since Obama has won. Libertarian think tanks are not funded by the same people who donate to GOP, create GOP astroturf. There is plenty wrong with Libertarians, but modern day Libertarians especially on this website, are not too much different from Republicans. I wish Republicans would adopt the libertarian ideals that they claim in their platform. Unfortunately, they are not much different than their fellow war-profiteers on the left. I hope for a an end to imperialism and corporate government. I'm closer to an anarchist than the Republocrat that you seem to accuse me of sympathizing with or supporting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted August 9, 2012 Moderator Share Posted August 9, 2012 I identify publicly as a libertarian socialist, btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted August 9, 2012 Moderator Share Posted August 9, 2012 Ramen666, I honestly don not intend to be your adversary. It just seems to me that you are misunderstanding and/or misrepresenting my views and those of others here with whom I hold some values in common. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jefflives Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 I am apathetic post-deconversion... feeling a bit like there is no stopping the machine that is our political "leadership". Obama? Romney? Any given congressperson/senator? HA. People who think picking a wealthy person from one side of a two-party system will make anything better are as delusional as a bible-believing xian. I'll stick to playing the game the best that I can, supporting my local community with money when I do well financially and with my time when I don't. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramen666 Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 True Freedom, Not intentionally misrepresenting your views, all I am stating what generally goes on when it comes to the modern day Libertarian movement. You can't tell me that is not happening within the modern day Libertarian movement what I said though. Because you got to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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