First Ever Gay Marriage Argument Over Facebook

[Inqui]

A guy I went to school with has moved to Taiwan to get married. Today I saw this gem, and stupidity demands correction so I felt the need to get involved.

 

Before I get into that, here's the cast:

Fundie: said schoolmate.

BS1 and BS2: backslapper 1 and backslapper 2.

Hamish: some dude who chipped in for the forces of good. His contributions warrant a name being used, real good sort this guy.

Schoolmate: Another guy I went to school with. Good, liberal Christian who can accept the Bible's limitations.

Other guy 1 and other guy 2: two guys that each added a little bit.

 

Here's what happened:

 

Fundie: Come on New Zealand Grow up you know marriage is between man and women. For them to become one as they come together. Man and man or women and women cannot do that.

BS1: Well Said. Totally agree!

Hamish: Wow, really? Do you have any idea how stupid you sound? You're really saying that a man can't love another man and a women can't love another woman?

BS2: Love is not the definition of marriage.

Hamish:Last time I checked people got married because they love each other

Inqui: BS1, that's what they're voting to change.

Inqui: Straight people shouldn't have an opinion on something that doesn't affect them. And I'm yet to see any logical reason why two men shouldn't be able to get married.

BS1: Marrage is the one thing that straight people have over gays. God intened man and women to be together. NOT man and man.

 

When I saw that second-last sentence, I couldn't help but grin.

 

Hamish:Wow now you are making them sound subhuman. Are you racist too? Do blacks threaten your way of life? No. Didn't think so. Homosexuality has been around a lot longer than the bible, not to mention humans aren't the only species in the world to practice it. Do you really think god would have such double standards?

Hamish: Not to mention the bible condones slavery, yet we got rid of that awhile ago. The bible is outdated and much of it bar the core ideals still apply. Funny thing is, most of those core ideals are found in most religions.

 

Also, the bible is writings by individuals. Each one of those writers would have their own beliefs and ideals which would influence what they wrote. They aren't at all reflective of what the times were actually like. You know why homosexuality was said to be bad? Because Christianity was founded in plebian society, where homosexual relations tended to be rife among the aristocracy.

 

Also, who defended the empire of Rome where Christianity gained it's real traction? Soldiers. Guess what was common among soldiers? Homosexuality. Why? Because these men lived and died alongside one another and what better motivation to fight than to save your lovers life?

Inqui: Ah, the classic God card. Here I have three responses.

 

1) Homosexuality is just as naturally-occurring as heterosexuality. If the idea of it being a choice wasn't stupid enough, it's been observed in more than 1500 different species of animal:

http://en.wikipedia....lity_in_animals

 

2) New Zealand is NOT a theocracy, and for a good reason. You wouldn't like it if we had a muslim majority and they wanted to impose Sharia law. For the same reason, we have separation of church and state and always will so that that other people not part of a religious majority are protected from having that religion forced down their throat. The idea of God and his opinions (how do you know what he thinks anyway? It seems rather a bold thing to say for a being whose existence has yet to be proven) have no place in legislation.

 

3) The Bible isn't as clear-cut against homosexuality as you like to think. Where it says it is an abomination to lie with a man as you lie with a woman, it actually means "untraditional" and it's one of those words that fitted awkwardly into the English language. But even then, a few verses before it's told it is an abomination to eat shellfish, and a verses after we are told it is an abomination to plant two crops in the same field. Too bad agriculture relies on crop rotation these days, huh.

 

You can't take the Bible literally either, unless you have no qualms selling your daughter as a sex slave or you sever your limbs every time you sin. Is that the case? I didn't think so. At the time, Israel struggled with population and needed people going at it. Today, we know about STDs and safe sex, and the world is thoroughly overpopulated as it is.

 

It also seems weird that God would make someone gay and send them to hell (or wherever: perhaps Auckland. HA, see what I did there?) for it. That seems like a real dick move.

Schoolmate: Also if you try and say that there is sanctity in marriage what about all the straight marriages that last less than a week. If you want say its against God then why would you let atheists marry and not be kicking up as big of a fuss. It seems like there are so many double standards, if two people love each other who are you to stand in the way, were does it say that you should stand in the way of peoples love.

Other guy 1: Agreed with the last 2 comments ^^. Also you don't live in New Zealand anymore so not need to worry about it.

Hamish:Don't get me.wrong, I have no problem with you practicng your religion and living your life that way. But you have NO right to decide how other people love their life.

Other guy 1:Have to admitt....that i have meet religious people especially Christians that say people who are non religious don't understand what love and life is about because their not Christians and haven't read the bible. Which is bullocks. But in saying that i think the gay marriage is strange/weird but nothing we can do to stop it, no ones perfect. thats my say don't want this to become an argument.

Other guy 2: Gay's should be able to get married at the end of the day its their life, so we should just allow them to get married and to who ever doesn't like it should just butt out and leave them be. If we don't allow them to, we would just be as bad as the Nazi's.

Other guy 2: I agree with Hamish and Inqui.

BS2: If two dude's love each other they can Have the civil union.

If they'd like to get married to adopt, thats not fair on the child.

Fundie: I never said anything about love Hamish. Please do read the post it might help. Gays can love each other I have nothing against that. Gays can go about doing there thing. And yes we have no rights to deciede how others live. But society needs everyone to stop just thinking about themselves and the minority of people. And think how this effects the majority.

Inqui: BS2: Rubbish, that's a stereotype you've made borne of ignorance. The reality is that gay people are just as good at raising children as straight people are, in some cases better. Before you try and shoot me down with the crap about needing a male and female role model, we allow single parents to raise children and there's no reason a loving gay couple can't do a better job.

Inqui:Fundie, the thing is that it DOESN'T affect the majority. I think two guys kissing is weird, but they're not hurting me if that's what they're into. When gay marriage is passed, God won't get offended (I've been over why). Society won't collapse. The muslims won't invade. Gay people will get married, and have the same rights as everyone else: the same rights they deserve as perfectly normal citizens. That will be it.

Other guy 1: True ( Inqui )

BS2: I never said single parents should be allowed to raise kids. Sure maybe if a spouse dies. But alot of people should not be raising children.

BS2: ]There is reasons why two dads cant do the job of a mum and dad. I see gay friends everyday. One of them has LECTURED me on this. Its not up to you straight people to decide this.

Inqui:You've ignored my main point though: gay people are just as good at raising kids as straights. For your part, you have no right to tell them they can't have kids. If your gay friends feel they're not up to it they don't have to adopt, but you can't force that view on someone else.

BS2: You'll find Your points still invalid.

Inqui: *your; *points are

 

See? I can shit on the board and claim victory too.

 

BS2:if i had no right to tell my gay buddy's they cant raise kids. Well you have no right to tell them they can.

Inqui: How does that work? By default an individual can do what they want as long as they're not harming others.

BS2: Those children will be harmed.

So then by that logic..?

 

But YES i am also saying, some couples, will not do as great a job at raising kids. Alot are ill cared for. those couples shouldn be allowed.

Inqui: That's an issue for child services to sort out then. You can't put a blanket ban on gay parents adopting just because some will do a bad job. Same as with the single parents.

BS2: ALL will do a bad job.

A mother can not be replaced.

 

A child is a privilege. Their needs must be met.

Fundie: For parenting, the mother can give the child certian things that a man cannot give that the child needs. It is the same for a man to. But If the couple are not working together as a team and not loving the child. Then yes a gay couple or a single parent would do a much better parenting. But for the best of what a child needs only a mother and father can give that

Inqui: "ALL will do a bad job."

Again, that's a load of crap, clearly borne of ignorance. Gays can raise kids in a perfectly loving and nurturing environment. The "mothers are loving, fathers are instructing" idea is a stereotype at best. They bo

th look after the kid, feeding and clothing it, loving it and bringing it up as a normal human being.

 

Allowing gays to adopt will also help to normalise gay relationships, meaning gay kids are more likely to see that it's ok to feel the way they do. Under teh status quo, they're six times more likely to attempt suicide. Showing the love of Christ indeed.

 

That last part was admittedly a bit snarkier than I needed to use. It also seems I need to improve my gays-raising-kids-fu, not knowing much about it raising kids beyond the stereotypical "mum does this, dad does that, God is happy" stuff I was taught at a Christian school. Briefly scanning a few studies, it seems the jury's out there.

 

I've trawled an anti-marriage equality page before and had a few things to say, but I've never gotten this stuck in or on such a personal level. A lot of people I know will have seen this, so I'm interested by how that will work with bringing my unbelief out.