antix Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 It so pisses me off to hear fundies declare that former christians were never true christians. There is not a word you can say that would convince them differently. It is as futile to argue with a TRUE fundy on this matter as it is in arguing the validity of christianity. The basis of their argument is subjective and fantastical. At the end, feeling is all they need to support their position. Their delusion runs so deep. You cannot have a discussion about 2 dimesions with someone living in one dimensional space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Yeah, on another forum populated by former fundamentalists, I see this a lot. People talk about how they were once atheists, but came back to being Christians. I can't say I understand it, myself. How do you just put the blinders back on after seeing reality? I can't. Not ever. Not without a clear sign from God himself. They were never True Atheists. A True Atheist would 'never' leave the fold...or whatever you call it. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunaticheathen Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 See my rant in "Most Annoying Type o Christian" thread about "ex-Wiccans" turned christian. They hear "pagan" and go "ERMAGHERD EYE WUZ EN DERKNURSS TEEEWWWW!!!" I have to basically quell the urge to pound their face in, say "no, you have no idea where I have been, or where I am now. Kindly fuck off." Then leave. Fuck them. They are not you. They do not know your mind. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryper Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 See my rant in "Most Annoying Type o Christian" thread about "ex-Wiccans" turned christian. They hear "pagan" and go "ERMAGHERD EYE WUZ EN DERKNURSS TEEEWWWW!!!" I have to basically quell the urge to pound their face in, say "no, you have no idea where I have been, or where I am now. Kindly fuck off." Then leave. Fuck them. They are not you. They do not know your mind. Actually a good fucking is what most of them could use. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Honestly, there is no response to that, which would be accepted by them. Quite right. Authoritarian thinking is fundamentally (ha ha) different from reasonable thinking. The criteria for determining truth or fallacy of a statement is, for the latter, "What does the evidence point to?"... and for the former, "what does my führer say is true?". ...People talk about how they were once atheists, but came back to being Christians. I can't say I understand it, myself. How do you just put the blinders back on after seeing reality?... They may have been what they think atheists are... probably "wanting to sin" or such idiocy. My wife's biggest argument right now is "Nobody can know, you weren't alive back then!"..... Heh that argument is notably stupid even for morontheist standards. So we can't know because we weren't there, and they can and do know although neither were they? If someone says to me: "If you were REALLY a Christian, you would not have left the faith" I will say: "If you REALLY questioned the faith, you would no longer be a Christian" Fucking brilliant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 When I first came to this site I was extremely offended when others questioned my former commitment as well. It's understandable because questioning your sincerity is a challenge to your personal integrity and the reason most of us are xers is because we value integrity enough to sincerely seek truth. If you are anything like me, it was often the pew-warmers pointing fingers when it was you/I who were actually the ones taking the whole thing seriously, which makes the charge so much harder to swallow. Nevertheless, with a bit of distance I think you will find that it starts to sound like "Perhaps you were never really a true believer in Harry Potter and the Easter Bunny." To which the rational response would be, "Thanks! Why yes, I'm rational. I've always been rational" The xian thinks you didn't tap into a real power and you realize there was no power to tap into, so the charge just gets silly after it's examined from a bit of distance from the emotions that are still strong when you first deconvert (or in my case, in the midst of processing your deconversion, which I didn't really do until I found this site). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thought2Much Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 My wife's biggest argument right now is "Nobody can know, you weren't alive back then!"..... Heh that argument is notably stupid even for morontheist standards. So we can't know because we weren't there, and they can and do know although neither were they? No, but GOD was there, and he wrote it all down in the Bible! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atkegar Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 I just want lilcoppertop to know I appreciate this thread. I was, and am, in a position wondering about my beliefs in this matter, for I have gone back and forth as to whether I am an atheist or not. Still not completely sure, but do lean toward atheism. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedStar Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 I would probably say that if their god is real and is who they think he is then he would tell them himself that I was a dedicated Christian, so unless they think their own god is a liar they should stop assuming they know everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilcoppertop Posted August 17, 2012 Author Share Posted August 17, 2012 I just want lilcoppertop to know I appreciate this thread. I was, and am, in a position wondering about my beliefs in this matter, for I have gone back and forth as to whether I am an atheist or not. Still not completely sure, but do lean toward atheism. Thanks atkegar! I'm in a similar situation right now. DEFINITELY not a Christian anymore, but still questioning and alternating between atheism and deism. The more I search for answers the more I find myself leaning towards atheism.....but I can't quite get all the way there yet. And I don't want to push myself into any belief or disbelief just because I think I should think a certain way. Keep searching for truth and you'll find your way eventually....wherever it happens to be. But it'll be right for you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted August 17, 2012 Moderator Share Posted August 17, 2012 Deism is actually practical atheism. You don't have to be able to say that you are certain that no god is controlling your life in order to live life as if that is the case. Peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilcoppertop Posted August 18, 2012 Author Share Posted August 18, 2012 Deism is actually practical atheism. You don't have to be able to say that you are certain that no god is controlling your life in order to live life as if that is the case. Peace. Huh. Hadn't thought of it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser01 Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Well, you know i almost went back into it a few months ago, and i can say from experience, you can in fact go back. It takes alot and the reason for going back is just that you fall for the sly and less than true tactics of theologians. When you live in Christianity, yet your an atheist at some point it just seems easier to go Christian and give up to conflict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roadrunner Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Well, you know i almost went back into it a few months ago, and i can say from experience, you can in fact go back. It takes alot and the reason for going back is just that you fall for the sly and less than true tactics of theologians. When you live in Christianity, yet your an atheist at some point it just seems easier to go Christian and give up to conflict. I wrestled with this too. Going back into the happy bubble with doubts that I will never be able to reconcile. On the other hand my wife would be happy, I could keep all my relationships intact, no one would ever know about the backslide. I talked myself out of it because I think its important to come forward and say i think its crap so xianity can go away and humanity can move on from the nonsense and get things done. Though I've heard and used this argument before (they must not have known jesus) I never had it used on me. the pastor brought up whether or not I thought i had fellowship with god but my friend accepts that you can go in and fall out. Mainly because as he is on fire for christ now and the person that led him to christ is now an atheist. Hard to deny that but some still will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzy Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Nevertheless, with a bit of distance I think you will find that it starts to sound like "Perhaps you were never really a true believer in Harry Potter and the Easter Bunny." To which the rational response would be, "Thanks! Why yes, I'm rational. I've always been rational" I get irritated when someone says I wasn't a real Christian, because I know that I was genuine in my belief. Perhaps more genuine than some people who are still in the church. Perhaps it was that genuinity that eventually led to questions that others, less genuine and less committed, never ask, because they are just happy with the superficial things: going to church every week, socialize, sing the worship songs and accept everything they are told without further examining, without ever questioning it. I actually think I took it TOO seriously. I took the Bible too seriously. And when you take it seriously it inevitably leads to realizing the contradictions, the cruelty and it results in a cognitive dissonance that is hard to bear on the long term. That is if you take seriously. On the other hand, looking back, I have to admit one thing: I never loved this God! I could never love him. I always only feared him, not loved him. And I'm proud I never loved him. How can someone sincerely love this God? If someone said he genuinely loved Adolf Hitler I'd be scared of that person. And this God is not any better than Adolf Hitler. So either Christians are lying when they say they love the Biblegod (lying to themselves as well) - and this is the better case -, or they have some seriously flawed morality. I cannot love someone who commits genocides, sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 We Ex-Cs who were raised Christian are the only ones who really took it seriously. This is quite obvious to me. I bet I have read more books on Christianity than many clergy have. I swear, I read hundreds of books examining this religion - then I went on to other religions. I was serious enough to examine the question from all angles. I read Calvin, I read the Church Fathers, I read eastern orthodox, Anglican, Fundamentalist Baptist, The Lordship vs. whatever the hell (can't remember)controversy, liberal, universalism, on and on. It is so obvious to me that the really serious ones are now out of it, that I can't seriously entertain any other view on this question. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atkegar Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 I just want lilcoppertop to know I appreciate this thread. I was, and am, in a position wondering about my beliefs in this matter, for I have gone back and forth as to whether I am an atheist or not. Still not completely sure, but do lean toward atheism. Thanks atkegar! I'm in a similar situation right now. DEFINITELY not a Christian anymore, but still questioning and alternating between atheism and deism. The more I search for answers the more I find myself leaning towards atheism.....but I can't quite get all the way there yet. And I don't want to push myself into any belief or disbelief just because I think I should think a certain way. Keep searching for truth and you'll find your way eventually....wherever it happens to be. But it'll be right for you. I know what you mean, while I lean towards atheism, I can't make the final push there myself. But, I can still research on this, and maybe someday something will click one way or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilith666 Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Sort of. I had a Catholic professor who said he quit Xianity once, but came back because he realized it's true. He didn't actually quit--he just drifted because Xianity impeded the lifestyle he wanted to have, of pretty much doing anything he felt like doing. This guy has no clue about the deconversion process and why people leave. He seemed to think apostates are that way because they want to rebel against X's restrictive moral code. Ask the Xian why s/he quit and why s/he came back. Ex-Xians who returned might not know why they did. They felt empty without religion, possibly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antix Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 I have no clue what to believe except I seriously doubt christanity. Even Mother Teresa had doubts at the end. http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-18563_162-3199062.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scatterbrain Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 This is something that really speaks to me about all of it. And it's the key to people who say things like this: NOBODY has the right to tell you what YOU FEEL, what YOU need, or what you *SHOULD* do. When statements like what is made in the OP are said, what they don't recognize is that they are attempting to define another's experience, knowledge and needs for them. When pointed out to them that this is the height of arrogance, hubris, and says a lot more about *them* than it does the person they're addressing, it might get through to the fundies in ways that other things cannot. If people want to know how I feel about something, they can ask. And I'll be happy to share as much as I feel comfortable sharing. Otherwise to assume they know you when they don't is making things all about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 You know how Christians like to say "You never really knew him...you must never have been a truly committed Christian or you wouldn't have left the church..."? And how infuriating that can be? Have any of you encountered Christians who claim to have been where you are now and questioned everything, and "found" that Christianity really did have all the answers they were seeking? How do you respond to that? Online I have. When it gets down to it, though, they weren't where I am. They didn't reject it because of learning that it was factually false. We can't go back to believing something that we have learned isn't true. Some may have had emotionally based questioning (which isn't bad) or rebelling, only to later reconnect with the religion in an emotionally satisfactory way. Those are the ones that Christians get their info about "atheists" and "skeptics" from, and they broadbrush all skeptics based on the stories they hear from those who have "found Jesus." However, those of us who are skeptics because of what we have learned are a completely different breed from those other "skeptics," and we cannot unlearn what we've learned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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