Jump to content
Goodbye Jesus

What Is The Point Of A Sacrifice?


Rachelmum

Recommended Posts

Great, let's make it fit objectively.

 

Uh, yeah. Exactly. I'm not about to intentionally lower my intellect to try to understand a deity or his followers that can't communicate in a way that makes sense.

 

Exactly my point. Sacrifice MY language, MY understanding or YOUR language, YOUR understanding so that the other might HAVE understanding and LIFE......happiness, etc. But, in your meaningless, sellfish,. evolutionistic world, it's all about YOU.....and your not about to. I rest my case.......the key word here....sacrifice.

 

How does my teenager say it.....headdesk.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Super Moderator
First God required an animals life for the imbalance of human to human sin.

We know the story, but WHY is a merciful, omniscient, omnipotent, etc. God so hooked on the smell of burnt animal flesh? Why must one or more of his innocent creations be killed every time one of his other flawed creations do or think something that displeases him? This does not make sense. We know this silly and cruel system is leading up to the ultimate super sacrifice of the super human-god to provide blanket coverage for human sin, but it doesn't answer the question as to WHY God is so eager for his creations to suffer and die just because he gave them a flaw in their very creation and they consequently behave accordingly and predictably.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Great, let's make it fit objectively. What a hoot. Right, I need to read Dawkins...I forgot. All hail the ongoing perfection of knowledge....bow low for you will all fall short.

 

And another thought about this statement:

 

Are you honestly trying to convince me that because your answers don't make sense, that this makes them better than answers that do make rational sense? Is this what you're trying to tell us?

 

Because if that's the case, then leprechauns don't bogart cheese nips on Wednesdays, but only if there are no cats in the room.

 

There. That statement makes no sense. That means I have the best argument. I win.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Great, let's make it fit objectively.

 

Uh, yeah. Exactly. I'm not about to intentionally lower my intellect to try to understand a deity or his followers that can't communicate in a way that makes sense.

 

Exactly my point. Sacrifice MY language, MY understanding or YOUR language, YOUR understanding so that the other might HAVE understanding and LIFE......happiness, etc. But, in your meaningless, sellfish,. evolutionistic world, it's all about YOU.....and your not about to. I rest my case.......the key word here....sacrifice.

 

How does my teenager say it.....headdesk.

 

There isn't even a cogent thought to be teased out of any of that. What the hell does any of that even mean? Once again, don't try to explain. It was a rhetorical question.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The question: What is the point of a sacrifice? Very simply. I, we all must give part of our lives so that others will have more of theirs.

Where is this stated again?

 

Quit trying to be so pretentious that this makes no sense you any of you. First God required an animals life for the imbalance of human to human sin. The life of the animal I would deem as not as valued as the life of man. And the payment was only temporary in that it paid the BALANCE of sin a person acquired..

I'll ignore the part where you read his mind. Maybe you can but it's not making much sense to me at the moment and previous encounters have shown you cannot read my mind and I have no clue what goes on inside yours.

 

Now when "god" required "an animals life for the imbalance of human to human sin" I'm assuming you mean that point in Genesis when he doesn't command any sacrifices yet Cain and Abel both offer it nonetheless and, at that point, an animal sacrifice was both offered and accepted. It's this point in history you're speaking about, correct? There can be no other as this is the first animal sacrifice and the first animal sacrifice that is deemed acceptable by this "god." So which "imbalance of human to human sin" are we dealing with here? There was *no* animal sacrifice following the murder of Abel. None. A clear imbalance existed yet *no* sacrifice was demanded nor was one offered. So what imbalance existed that Cain and Abel, Abel being the one we're primarily interested in here, that *Abel* needed to offer an animal sacrifice to pay for?

 

...which is in contrast to Christ's life for all sin ongoing...provided faith and non-blasphemy of the HS.

So what you're saying the animal sacrifice worked/works, even if for some limited time, whether a person believes in it or not (regardless of the HS and the blaspheming of such).

 

However, the "christ" does not work *at all* unless a person has faith and this HS conditional. Once either of these conditions are broken then the "christ" sacrifice has zero powers whereas the animal sacrifice would continue to function properly over a given period of time. At which point the animal sacrifice can be easily renewed but the "christ" sacrifice cannot. The "christ" sacrifice, in and of itself, has no power to do anything unlike the animal sacrifice you've wished to contrast it with. It hinges solely on your two conditionals.

 

Even if it is just a story, with no factual basis,....then you all have a huge inablility to grasp the theme. Crap, and I am the one that despised literature.

Fictional stories have themes. Real life generally doesn't work that way. If there is a "theme" we're probably not dealing with real life. Is there really a theme?

 

mwc

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The question: What is the point of a sacrifice? Very simply. I, we all must give part of our lives so that others will have more of theirs. Quit trying to be so pretentious that this makes no sense you any of you.

 

Uhmm, I really wasn't being pretentious in asking the question. This has honestly bothered me for years, like a loose thread in a sweater.

 

It started back when I was in Bible College, in OT History class. We studied that story of the sacrifice of seven animals. Each one was cut in half, each half laid a few feet apart and the bible character had to walk between them. It seemed barbaric and inhumane, and I could not understand how that related to Jesus's sacrifice for me on the cross. Over the years it kept coming up, to the point that I began to wonder why sacrifice, and ultimately the death of Jesus was necessary at all if God was just going to make the choice to overlook our sins anyway. The bible was always taught as though it was one continuous narrative telling a story of love across time, but when I really look at it, it looks more like a cobbled mess. Our professors had to nearly daily allegorise whole stories because literally they were ridiculous. But I just swallowed it, having been raised in this culture.

 

And while I was aware that there were other types of sacrifices, I should have been more specific. I don't understand the basis of a blood sacrifice. Why an animal's life was required as payment for MY sins. It sounds more like magic, something from a Harry Potter book than something real. And the thing that bugs me is that if I try to harmonise it all, what it comes down to is that the deity is making a decision to overlook some offence against them. As some have pointed out, they make a 'rule', we violate it, then they require a death as compensation (or to avoid their punishment) for our violation, then they choose to let it go. Which honestly sounds very arbitrary to me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First God required an animals life for the imbalance of human to human sin.

We know the story, but WHY is a merciful, omniscient, omnipotent, etc. God so hooked on the smell of burnt animal flesh? Why must one or more of his innocent creations be killed every time one of his other flawed creations do or think something that displeases him? This does not make sense. We know this silly and cruel system is leading up to the ultimate super sacrifice of the super human-god to provide blanket coverage for human sin, but it doesn't answer the question as to WHY God is so eager for his creations to suffer and die just because he gave them a flaw in their very creation and they consequently behave accordingly and predictably.

 

Just me on a practical level....I value human life over any animal life...plant life, etc. This is pretty much true in reality, right? So why would it not be merciful to take an animals life in lieu of a humans? It makes sense to me. So why not God's OWN sacrifice to show HIS wanting for us to have life via His sacrifice? Makes perfect sense. And what I said about mutual sacrifice......is this true or not true. And how are you going to prove this on an objective level, but still it's pretty much true. And the factamentalists. (you like that)....the factamentalists have NO DOUBT that their facts somehow supercede THESE truths. Who can keep the rules? You? You take out the trash perfectly for your wife?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The question: What is the point of a sacrifice? Very simply. I, we all must give part of our lives so that others will have more of theirs. Quit trying to be so pretentious that this makes no sense you any of you.

 

Uhmm, I really wasn't being pretentious in asking the question. This has honestly bothered me for years, like a loose thread in a sweater.

 

It started back when I was in Bible College, in OT History class. We studied that story of the sacrifice of seven animals. Each one was cut in half, each half laid a few feet apart and the bible character had to walk between them. It seemed barbaric and inhumane, and I could not understand how that related to Jesus's sacrifice for me on the cross. Over the years it kept coming up, to the point that I began to wonder why sacrifice, and ultimately the death of Jesus was necessary at all if God was just going to make the choice to overlook our sins anyway. The bible was always taught as though it was one continuous narrative telling a story of love across time, but when I really look at it, it looks more like a cobbled mess. Our professors had to nearly daily allegorise whole stories because literally they were ridiculous. But I just swallowed it, having been raised in this culture.

 

And while I was aware that there were other types of sacrifices, I should have been more specific. I don't understand the basis of a blood sacrifice. Why an animal's life was required as payment for MY sins. It sounds more like magic, something from a Harry Potter book than something real. And the thing that bugs me is that if I try to harmonise it all, what it comes down to is that the deity is making a decision to overlook some offence against them. As some have pointed out, they make a 'rule', we violate it, then they require a death as compensation (or to avoid their punishment) for our violation, then they choose to let it go. Which honestly sounds very arbitrary to me.

 

I wasn't referring to you as pretentious. The blood sacrifice I see as symbolic of life. Leviticus says the life of the animal is in the blood....if I am remembering correctly. I just see it as mostly synonomous with our daily lives. I think we most certainly violate everyone elses subjective rules daily as well as them violating ours. A rigid set of rules or payment for penalty would be "unkeepable" as was the Law IMO. So enters Grace but the rules remain in our heart, but now with forgiveness and empathy.

 

Didn't mean to foobarr your thread....but have thought about sacrifice and how it plays a role in us knowing each other and accepting each other in trust.

 

Welcome to the madness here R.

 

Ed

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Where is this stated again?

Page 493.

 

 

Now when "god" required "an animals life for the imbalance of human to human sin" I'm assuming you mean that point in Genesis when he doesn't command any sacrifices yet Cain and Abel both offer it nonetheless and, at that point, an animal sacrifice was both offered and accepted. It's this point in history you're speaking about, correct? There can be no other as this is the first animal sacrifice and the first animal sacrifice that is deemed acceptable by this "god." So which "imbalance of human to human sin" are we dealing with here? There was *no* animal sacrifice following the murder of Abel. None. A clear imbalance existed yet *no* sacrifice was demanded nor was one offered. So what imbalance existed that Cain and Abel, Abel being the one we're primarily interested in here, that *Abel* needed to offer an animal sacrifice to pay for?

Aye, we are reminded of Noah and others that were righteous among the population. How does that not fit here when sacrifice was not there yet.

 

 

 

 

So what you're saying the animal sacrifice worked/works, even if for some limited time, whether a person believes in it or not (regardless of the HS and the blaspheming of such).

As I understand it.....you do x or death happens.

 

However, the "christ" does not work *at all* unless a person has faith and this HS conditional. Once either of these conditions are broken then the "christ" sacrifice has zero powers whereas the animal sacrifice would continue to function properly over a given period of time. At which point the animal sacrifice can be easily renewed but the "christ" sacrifice cannot. The "christ" sacrifice, in and of itself, has no power to do anything unlike the animal sacrifice you've wished to contrast it with. It hinges solely on your two conditionals.

The Law had it's time, no.....until it was fullfilled?......until another cup was poured?.....the covenant of Grace? You are the Bible guru.....how do you see it differently....seriously.

 

 

 

Fictional stories have themes. Real life generally doesn't work that way. If there is a "theme" we're probably not dealing with real life. Is there really a theme?

Realistically we all cheer for the same plot line.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Besides, if you want to believe the bible, Jeremiah said that sacrifices WERE NOT NECESSARY to gain forgiveness from god.

 

So there.

 

Jeremiah 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

 

 

...............

 

 

Jeremiah DID say that God spoke concerning sacrifices, Jeremiah 17:26; Jeremiah 31:14; Jeremiah 33:17-18.

 

The biblical writers had differing rhetorical devices to arrest the attention of the audience. Jeremiah uses a device where an inferior circumstance is denied in order to show the superiority of another circumstance (compare Ex 16:8 And Moses said, This shall be, when the Lord shall give you in the evening flesh to eat, and in the morning bread to the full; for that the Lord heareth your murmurings which ye murmur against him: and what are we? your murmurings are not against us, but against the Lord.)

Jeremiah was showing that the ten commanment moral law is SUPERIOR to the ceremonial laws (see 1Sa 15:22). The people were breaking the ten commandment law and thinking their offerings will suffice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

what is humanities purpose and how do you know?

I can answer that.

 

The purpose of humanities is to study the human condition through analysis and research. And we know this because that's how the word is defined.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Page 493.

Gotcha. We now know where that argument came from and can dismiss it.

 

Aye, we are reminded of Noah and others that were righteous among the population. How does that not fit here when sacrifice was not there yet.

As I stated there was sacrifice as far back as Cain and Abel with Abel performing the first animal sacrifice. His sacrifice being accept and Cain's being denied. This would mean Abel had some "human to human sin" that was paid for according to you.

 

More to your new point we should remember that the righteous Noah took sacrificial animals on board the ark by command and immediately performed an animal sacrifice upon safe journey. The flood was to cleanse the earth of all the evil. So what is the animal sacrifice for? What "human to human sin" exists in the now cleansed earth that require a payment?

 

I imagine this is also on page 493.

 

As I understand it.....you do x or death happens.

That's a little rough. That would make Israel a very small population. The Law says what resulted in death so you should be able to located which <x> does or does not result in death. Once you read through the Law you should find most things are fairly "secular." Like taxes or fines. The "spiritual" related items basically rested on the shoulders of the Levites and happened automatically. In the morning, evening, the new moons, holidays, etc., they would fire off the appropriate sacrifices to keep everyone's "spiritual" welfare going strong. On the travel holidays the people would be required to take some action but it was usually just some excuse to collect another tax. Then on Rosh Hashanah (the day of judgment) the "books" are opened (not really...this is "heavenly" stuff). Then on Yom Kippur the people are atoned and good to go for another year. It's quite simple for the common folk. They have the job of living their own lives and someone else has the "job" of religious stuff on their behalf and making sure it's all done correctly.

 

The Law had it's time, no.....until it was fullfilled?......until another cup was poured?.....the covenant of Grace? You are the Bible guru.....how do you see it differently....seriously.

The Law is forever. It says so.

 

The Law isn't forever because xian theology says so.

 

Both are true.

 

What's the specific question?

 

Realistically we all cheer for the same plot line.

Nice try but not so. Not everyone is cheering for the good old US of A in many places around the world even though in our plot line that's exactly what they should be doing. In their plot line they're cheering for themselves and shouting us down as villains. Makes sense. That's the nature of the real world. Plot lines vary and the same plot line is rarely shared as an ideal.

 

mwc

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Super Moderator
First God required an animals life for the imbalance of human to human sin.

We know the story, but WHY is a merciful, omniscient, omnipotent, etc. God so hooked on the smell of burnt animal flesh? Why must one or more of his innocent creations be killed every time one of his other flawed creations do or think something that displeases him? This does not make sense. We know this silly and cruel system is leading up to the ultimate super sacrifice of the super human-god to provide blanket coverage for human sin, but it doesn't answer the question as to WHY God is so eager for his creations to suffer and die just because he gave them a flaw in their very creation and they consequently behave accordingly and predictably.

 

Just me on a practical level....I value human life over any animal life...plant life, etc. This is pretty much true in reality, right? So why would it not be merciful to take an animals life in lieu of a humans? It makes sense to me. So why not God's OWN sacrifice to show HIS wanting for us to have life via His sacrifice? Makes perfect sense. And what I said about mutual sacrifice......is this true or not true. And how are you going to prove this on an objective level, but still it's pretty much true. And the factamentalists. (you like that)....the factamentalists have NO DOUBT that their facts somehow supercede THESE truths. Who can keep the rules? You? You take out the trash perfectly for your wife?

I can't detect an address to my question there. It's as if you would ask me, "What is the sum of two plus two?" and I answered, "Math is important and has been used to build the space shuttle."

 

Again, very basic, why does the death of innocents satisfy a god who is ostensibly merciful, in control of all creation, the definition of love, and therefore not bloodthirsty?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

And another point. Why would you assume that God could not change the rules?

Doesn't the Bible say God is immutable and will never change? Or is it his nature to constantly change what he needs to satisfy his blood thirst? Animal or human sacrifice has to do with shedding blood. Why does God need blood like the pagan gods?

 

Who says the lesson(s) are not for us to learn. And again, all the questions posed here are form a standpoint that you know the entity God. And if you subscribe to Christianity, then to know Christ is to know God.....so look at Christ.

All of us, we are Christ. I'm Christ. You are Christ. Know thyself and know God. Lock your views and beliefs to an old book and lose what really is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So what is the animal sacrifice for? What "human to human sin" exists in the now cleansed earth that require a payment?

And don't forget that it's not really the sacrifice itself, but the blood is what's important since the blood is life (if I recall correctly from the Bible studies). God wants blood. Animal or human, doesn't matter, as long as the blood "covers the sin."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This sacrifice thing is so primitive. Why is blood important? "The life of the flesh is in the blood". But if God is all powerful then he has total control. Except he doesn't, actually. Why? So-called free will has more power than God. God is compelled by another force more powerful than himself. The power of "free-will". All because of this we have the crazy "sacrifice" thing so that God can be satisfied. It is nuts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Again, very basic, why does the death of innocents satisfy a god who is ostensibly merciful, in control of all creation, the definition of love, and therefore not bloodthirsty?

 

I've already answered that....the heirarchy is defined in Genesis. If you were God, would you sacrifice a human life or an animals with new rules.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The purpose of animal sacrifice according to Wikipedia:

Animal sacrifice is the ritual killing of an animal as part of a religion. It is practised by many religions as a means of appeasing a god or gods or changing the course of nature. Animal sacrifice has turned up in almost all cultures, including most famously the Hebrews, Greeks, Romans, and Aztecs.

Remnants of ancient rituals of animal sacrifice are apparent in many cultures, for example the Spanishbullfights, or kapparos in Judaism, or ritual slaughter procedures like shechita or ḏabīḥah in Judaism and Islam, respectively. But to the practitioner within those religious belief systems, the religious and spiritual practice remains valid and necessary as "the sacrificial ceremony acts as a medium, a means of communication with the sacred, which enables him to create a link, a communion between him and the invisible powers".[1]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you were God, would you sacrifice a human life or an animals with new rules.

 

If I were God, I wouldn't require a sacrifice at all, because the concept is stupid and pointless.

 

To get back to the original question, which you still haven't answered, end: Why does God require a sacrifice at all?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As I stated there was sacrifice as far back as Cain and Abel with Abel performing the first animal sacrifice. His sacrifice being accept and Cain's being denied. This would mean Abel had some "human to human sin" that was paid for according to you

And? Does it say Abel was sinless?

 

 

More to your new point we should remember that the righteous Noah took sacrificial animals on board the ark by command and immediately performed an animal sacrifice upon safe journey. The flood was to cleanse the earth of all the evil. So what is the animal sacrifice for? What "human to human sin" exists in the now cleansed earth that require a payment?

Already perpitrated sins???? Hello, McFly?

 

 

That's a little rough. That would make Israel a very small population. The Law says what resulted in death so you should be able to located which <x> does or does not result in death. Once you read through the Law you should find most things are fairly "secular." Like taxes or fines. The "spiritual" related items basically rested on the shoulders of the Levites and happened automatically. In the morning, evening, the new moons, holidays, etc., they would fire off the appropriate sacrifices to keep everyone's "spiritual" welfare going strong. On the travel holidays the people would be required to take some action but it was usually just some excuse to collect another tax. Then on Rosh Hashanah (the day of judgment) the "books" are opened (not really...this is "heavenly" stuff). Then on Yom Kippur the people are atoned and good to go for another year. It's quite simple for the common folk. They have the job of living their own lives and someone else has the "job" of religious stuff on their behalf and making sure it's all done correctly.

yes, priests make no sense in the context.

 

 

The Law is forever. It says so.

 

The Law isn't forever because xian theology says so.

 

Both are true.

 

What's the specific question?

Looks like we agree here.

 

 

Nice try but not so. Not everyone is cheering for the good old US of A in many places around the world even though in our plot line that's exactly what they should be doing. In their plot line they're cheering for themselves and shouting us down as villains. Makes sense. That's the nature of the real world. Plot lines vary and the same plot line is rarely shared as an ideal.

Rocky, The Natural, you name it.....wax on, wax off Karate Kid. It's all the same......Star Wars...the evil is defeated....David comes to mind. This is reality. The truth of reality. The good guy wins.

 

i really respect your knowlegde mwc, but you damn sure have been cranky here in the last few months. Hope all is well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The purpose of animal sacrifice according to Wikipedia:

 

Animal sacrifice is the ritual killing of an animal as part of a religion. It is practised by many religions as a means of appeasing a god or gods or changing the course of nature. Animal sacrifice has turned up in almost all cultures, including most famously the Hebrews, Greeks, Romans, and Aztecs.

Remnants of ancient rituals of animal sacrifice are apparent in many cultures, for example the Spanishbullfights, or kapparos in Judaism, or ritual slaughter procedures like shechita or ḏabīḥah in Judaism and Islam, respectively. But to the practitioner within those religious belief systems, the religious and spiritual practice remains valid and necessary as "the sacrificial ceremony acts as a medium, a means of communication with the sacred, which enables him to create a link, a communion between him and the invisible powers".[1]

 

 

Your own take Hans???

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you were God, would you sacrifice a human life or an animals with new rules.

 

If I were God, I wouldn't require a sacrifice at all, because the concept is stupid and pointless.

 

To get back to the original question, which you still haven't answered, end: Why does God require a sacrifice at all?

Oh, so you would create Satan

 

i did too answer it.....a life for a life.....there has to be a balance to reach an equillibrium within a system.....natural law sir. What would make you think Spiritual Law is any different.....other than you think is is make belief and non-objective

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This sacrifice thing is so primitive. Why is blood important? "The life of the flesh is in the blood". But if God is all powerful then he has total control. Except he doesn't, actually. Why? So-called free will has more power than God. God is compelled by another force more powerful than himself. The power of "free-will". All because of this we have the crazy "sacrifice" thing so that God can be satisfied. It is nuts.

 

How is humanity supposed to learn Ms. D? On our own, really? What percentage does that......a narrow few. "wide is the path to destruction...but narrow is the gate..."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you were God, would you sacrifice a human life or an animals with new rules.

 

If I were God, I wouldn't require a sacrifice at all, because the concept is stupid and pointless.

 

To get back to the original question, which you still haven't answered, end: Why does God require a sacrifice at all?

Oh, so you would create Satan

 

Of course I wouldn't create Satan! If I'm God, and I can see and control the whole of time and space, past and future, I would know that creating Satan is a bad idea. Even if I created him and only saw things in retrospect, I could just as easily un-create him. Not destroy him. Un-create him. Make the universe as if he never existed to begin with, and no one would be the wiser.

 

Would you take your tap dancing shoes off for just a second, and either:

  1. Answer the question about why sacrifice is necessary, or
     
  2. Admit that you just don't know the answer to the question <-- Hint: we all already know it's this one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Super Moderator

Again, very basic, why does the death of innocents satisfy a god who is ostensibly merciful, in control of all creation, the definition of love, and therefore not bloodthirsty?

 

I've already answered that....the heirarchy is defined in Genesis. If you were God, would you sacrifice a human life or an animals with new rules.

 

No, you proposed an hypothesis of HOW that deity implements the system payment in blood, but you still didn't address the question - WHY does this perfect deity feel pleased and satisfied by the deaths of his own creations? It's fucked up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.