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Goodbye Jesus

Does God Help The Weary?


TrailBlazer

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You cannot say God never helped ANYBODY, that is a huge generalization. You may say that God never helped you. You may say that God never helped some other people you know, but I do think the belief in a God is enough to do something for those who believe in it and have little else to put their hope into.

 

Well, if I don't believe god exists at all, I can surely say that "he" never helped anybody. Because "he" couldn't help anybody any more than a pink unicorn or the tooth fairy could help anybody. But I would never deny that faith in god has helped some people.

 

I understand TB. but a placebo does absolutely nothing. a sugar pill never cured cancer for ANYONE. whether they feel think it worked or not.

Well, hang on there a second. How do you go from the known value of a placebo to curing cancer? There is more to the human condition than just physical, you know? They have a direct impact on mental states, and mental states in fact do affect our overall physical well-being, even if it doesn't perform miracles like curing cancer or regrowing limbs. That's a red herring argument to deflects away from the actual benefits.

 

And so with belief or faith in God, I would not call that a placebo effect itself as faith goes much deeper. However the comparison is not altogether wrong. How we believe does in fact directly affect our emotion and mental health. What we tell ourselves is truth either motivates us or saps life from us. Not sure if you are familiar with Cognitive Behavioral Therapies, but they work directly with the thought processes in treatment of anxieties and depression. Anxiety in fact affects our physical well being. Stress causes illness. Managing stress promotes physical health. These are facts, not just beliefs.

 

So when it comes to a religious faith, and I am not talking about willful ignorance called faith which believes against reason in a cognitive dissonance denying facts, but where someone 'feels' reason to hope and believes in that feeling. That act can and does directly affect the persons emotional and psychological well-being. But the caveat again is not mistaking that with truth-denial. That, a cognitive dissonance, itself is unhealthy as it creates psychological imbalance. "I'm just going to believe and ignore what you're saying. *puts fingers in ears* Nah, nah, nah... I can't hear you". That will lead to inner conflict, which leads to stress, which leads to illnesses.

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You cannot say God never helped ANYBODY, that is a huge generalization. You may say that God never helped you. You may say that God never helped some other people you know, but I do think the belief in a God is enough to do something for those who believe in it and have little else to put their hope into.

 

Well, if I don't believe god exists at all, I can surely say that "he" never helped anybody. Because "he" couldn't help anybody any more than a pink unicorn or the tooth fairy could help anybody. But I would never deny that faith in god has helped some people.

 

I understand TB. but a placebo does absolutely nothing. a sugar pill never cured cancer for ANYONE. whether they feel think it worked or not.

Well, hang on there a second. How do you go from the known value of a placebo to curing cancer? There is more to the human condition than just physical, you know? They have a direct impact on mental states, and mental states in fact do affect our overall physical well-being, even if it doesn't perform miracles like curing cancer or regrowing limbs. That's a red herring argument to deflects away from the actual benefits.

 

And so with belief or faith in God, I would not call that a placebo effect itself as faith goes much deeper. However the comparison is not altogether wrong. How we believe does in fact directly affect our emotion and mental health. What we tell ourselves is truth either motivates us or saps life from us. Not sure if you are familiar with Cognitive Behavioral Therapies, but they work directly with the thought processes in treatment of anxieties and depression. Anxiety in fact affects our physical well being. Stress causes illness. Managing stress promotes physical health. These are facts, not just beliefs.

 

So when it comes to a religious faith, and I am not talking about willful ignorance called faith which believes against reason in a cognitive dissonance denying facts, but where someone 'feels' reason to hope and believes in that feeling. That act can and does directly affect the persons emotional and psychological well-being. But the caveat again is not mistaking that with truth-denial. That, a cognitive dissonance, itself is unhealthy as it creates psychological imbalance. "I'm just going to believe and ignore what you're saying. *puts fingers in ears* Nah, nah, nah... I can't hear you". That will lead to inner conflict, which leads to stress, which leads to illnesses.

cancer is just a metaphor in this example. but placebo's are not engineered to change, cure, or alter, anything or any condition. if someone claims they experienced comfort from a placebo, good for them....but the placebo itself changed nothing about their condition and the scientist who came up with it can confirm that. TB used the placebo analogy above and i understand what he's saying so i kept with that analogy but I still think it to be more than a placebo. i think its more of a drug that produces mental effects but changes nothing about the situation.

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cancer is just a metaphor in this example. but placebo's are not engineered to change, cure, or alter, anything or any condition. if someone claims they experienced comfort from a placebo, good for them....but the placebo itself changed nothing about their condition and the scientist who came up with it can confirm that.

I believe I said this in my response. But the point is that to say the placebo is "no good" because it didn't cure the cancer, even though it eased their suffering through belief misses the point. It worked. It eased their suffering by allowing them to let go of their anxiety. That is the point.

 

TB used the placebo analogy above and i understand what he's saying so i kept with that analogy but I still think it to be more than a placebo. i think its more of a drug that produces mental effects but changes nothing about the situation.

A drug? Goodness, you can call any belief you have about anything in your normal day then 'a drug'. And how do you say it produces mental effects, but changes nothing about the situation? If someone believes they can succeed, they will act on that belief and that produces material effects. The same is true if someone doesn't belief. They will not act, and they will also have a result in the material world. They don't go out and get the job, they stay where they are. If something affects the mental state, it will affect the physical state, in one manner or another. Again though, I'm not talking outrageous miracle claims like floating on air, regrowing amputated limbs, walking on water, etc. But as as you think, as you believe, you act, and you become - one thing or another.

 

"We are shaped by our thoughts; we become what we think. When the mind is pure, joy follows like a shadow that never leaves."

~Buddha

 

"Men often become what they believe themselves to be. If I believe I cannot do something, it makes me incapable of doing it. But when I believe I can, then I acquire the ability to do it even if I didn't have it in the beginning."

~Ghandi

 

There's no magic with this. If someone believes there is hope, they will act through that, and the situation will change. It is irrelevant whether a supernatural God did this or not. If they are able to affect a positive change, then didn't "God" do it for them in this sense, whether or not God is 'up there'? It was the belief that affected the change.

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cancer is just a metaphor in this example. but placebo's are not engineered to change, cure, or alter, anything or any condition. if someone claims they experienced comfort from a placebo, good for them....but the placebo itself changed nothing about their condition and the scientist who came up with it can confirm that.

I believe I said this in my response. But the point is that to say the placebo is "no good" because it didn't cure the cancer, even though it eased their suffering through belief misses the point. It worked. It eased their suffering by allowing them to let go of their anxiety. That is the point.

 

TB used the placebo analogy above and i understand what he's saying so i kept with that analogy but I still think it to be more than a placebo. i think its more of a drug that produces mental effects but changes nothing about the situation.

A drug? Goodness, you can call any belief you have about anything in your normal day then 'a drug'. And how do you say it produces mental effects, but changes nothing about the situation? If someone believes they can succeed, they will act on that belief and that produces material effects. The same is true if someone doesn't belief. They will not act, and they will also have a result in the material world. They don't go out and get the job, they stay where they are. If something affects the mental state, it will affect the physical state, in one manner or another. Again though, I'm not talking outrageous miracle claims like floating on air, regrowing amputated limbs, walking on water, etc. But as as you think, as you believe, you act, and you become - one thing or another.

 

"We are shaped by our thoughts; we become what we think. When the mind is pure, joy follows like a shadow that never leaves."

~Buddha

 

"Men often become what they believe themselves to be. If I believe I cannot do something, it makes me incapable of doing it. But when I believe I can, then I acquire the ability to do it even if I didn't have it in the beginning."

~Ghandi

 

There's no magic with this. If someone believes there is hope, they will act through that, and the situation will change. It is irrelevant whether a supernatural God did this or not. If they are able to affect a positive change, then didn't "God" do it for them in this sense, whether or not God is 'up there'? It was the belief that affected the change.

I hate to keep respectfully disagreeing but as cute as that is it has no basis. Studies have show that praying and positive thought have no effect. The study conducted dealt with cancer. Often the positive thought is accompanied by hard work dedication and somehow the positive though seems to get more credit than it deserves.I admit that it is positive and helps change you perspective but you can't think something so. You can think til the cows come home and it won't change a thing in my book

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cancer is just a metaphor in this example. but placebo's are not engineered to change, cure, or alter, anything or any condition. if someone claims they experienced comfort from a placebo, good for them....but the placebo itself changed nothing about their condition and the scientist who came up with it can confirm that.

I believe I said this in my response. But the point is that to say the placebo is "no good" because it didn't cure the cancer, even though it eased their suffering through belief misses the point. It worked. It eased their suffering by allowing them to let go of their anxiety. That is the point.

 

TB used the placebo analogy above and i understand what he's saying so i kept with that analogy but I still think it to be more than a placebo. i think its more of a drug that produces mental effects but changes nothing about the situation.

A drug? Goodness, you can call any belief you have about anything in your normal day then 'a drug'. And how do you say it produces mental effects, but changes nothing about the situation? If someone believes they can succeed, they will act on that belief and that produces material effects. The same is true if someone doesn't belief. They will not act, and they will also have a result in the material world. They don't go out and get the job, they stay where they are. If something affects the mental state, it will affect the physical state, in one manner or another. Again though, I'm not talking outrageous miracle claims like floating on air, regrowing amputated limbs, walking on water, etc. But as as you think, as you believe, you act, and you become - one thing or another.

 

"We are shaped by our thoughts; we become what we think. When the mind is pure, joy follows like a shadow that never leaves."

~Buddha

 

"Men often become what they believe themselves to be. If I believe I cannot do something, it makes me incapable of doing it. But when I believe I can, then I acquire the ability to do it even if I didn't have it in the beginning."

~Ghandi

 

There's no magic with this. If someone believes there is hope, they will act through that, and the situation will change. It is irrelevant whether a supernatural God did this or not. If they are able to affect a positive change, then didn't "God" do it for them in this sense, whether or not God is 'up there'? It was the belief that affected the change.

I hate to keep respectfully disagreeing but as cute as that is it has no basis. Studies have show that praying and positive thought have no effect.

No effect on what? Cancer? Did you not read the words I wrote? I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I've addressed this very specifically. I'm not talking about curing cancer or regrowing limbs here. Please re-read what I wrote.

 

The study conducted dealt with cancer. Often the positive thought is accompanied by hard work dedication and somehow the positive though seems to get more credit than it deserves.

Yep. Please read what I wrote, twice now.

 

I admit that it is positive and helps change you perspective but you can't think something so. You can think til the cows come home and it won't change a thing in my book

Change nothing? What change are you expecting? To levitate your car? This is not what I am saying at all. Do you mean to say you believe that your thoughts, your beliefs have no effect on your attitudes, and then from that your actions? This is really, really simple stuff. No magic. Although, for you to believe your thoughts have no effect on your world, that things just simply "happen", is in fact "magical thinking". You don't think you influence anything?? If you do, where did that influence begin? Your thoughts, per chance? Your beliefs?

 

What I hear you saying is you think prayer or belief or positive thought is about performing magic. This is not what I am saying, nor would I suggest.

 

P.S. How the hell is what I said "cute"?

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cancer is just a metaphor in this example. but placebo's are not engineered to change, cure, or alter, anything or any condition. if someone claims they experienced comfort from a placebo, good for them....but the placebo itself changed nothing about their condition and the scientist who came up with it can confirm that.

I believe I said this in my response. But the point is that to say the placebo is "no good" because it didn't cure the cancer, even though it eased their suffering through belief misses the point. It worked. It eased their suffering by allowing them to let go of their anxiety. That is the point.

 

TB used the placebo analogy above and i understand what he's saying so i kept with that analogy but I still think it to be more than a placebo. i think its more of a drug that produces mental effects but changes nothing about the situation.

A drug? Goodness, you can call any belief you have about anything in your normal day then 'a drug'. And how do you say it produces mental effects, but changes nothing about the situation? If someone believes they can succeed, they will act on that belief and that produces material effects. The same is true if someone doesn't belief. They will not act, and they will also have a result in the material world. They don't go out and get the job, they stay where they are. If something affects the mental state, it will affect the physical state, in one manner or another. Again though, I'm not talking outrageous miracle claims like floating on air, regrowing amputated limbs, walking on water, etc. But as as you think, as you believe, you act, and you become - one thing or another.

 

"We are shaped by our thoughts; we become what we think. When the mind is pure, joy follows like a shadow that never leaves."

~Buddha

 

"Men often become what they believe themselves to be. If I believe I cannot do something, it makes me incapable of doing it. But when I believe I can, then I acquire the ability to do it even if I didn't have it in the beginning."

~Ghandi

 

There's no magic with this. If someone believes there is hope, they will act through that, and the situation will change. It is irrelevant whether a supernatural God did this or not. If they are able to affect a positive change, then didn't "God" do it for them in this sense, whether or not God is 'up there'? It was the belief that affected the change.

I hate to keep respectfully disagreeing but as cute as that is it has no basis. Studies have show that praying and positive thought have no effect. The study conducted dealt with cancer. Often the positive thought is accompanied by hard work dedication and somehow the positive though seems to get more credit than it deserves.I admit that it is positive and helps change you perspective but you can't think something so. You can think til the cows come home and it won't change a thing in my book

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cancer is just a metaphor in this example. but placebo's are not engineered to change, cure, or alter, anything or any condition. if someone claims they experienced comfort from a placebo, good for them....but the placebo itself changed nothing about their condition and the scientist who came up with it can confirm that.

I believe I said this in my response. But the point is that to say the placebo is "no good" because it didn't cure the cancer, even though it eased their suffering through belief misses the point. It worked. It eased their suffering by allowing them to let go of their anxiety. That is the point.

 

TB used the placebo analogy above and i understand what he's saying so i kept with that analogy but I still think it to be more than a placebo. i think its more of a drug that produces mental effects but changes nothing about the situation.

A drug? Goodness, you can call any belief you have about anything in your normal day then 'a drug'. And how do you say it produces mental effects, but changes nothing about the situation? If someone believes they can succeed, they will act on that belief and that produces material effects. The same is true if someone doesn't belief. They will not act, and they will also have a result in the material world. They don't go out and get the job, they stay where they are. If something affects the mental state, it will affect the physical state, in one manner or another. Again though, I'm not talking outrageous miracle claims like floating on air, regrowing amputated limbs, walking on water, etc. But as as you think, as you believe, you act, and you become - one thing or another.

 

"We are shaped by our thoughts; we become what we think. When the mind is pure, joy follows like a shadow that never leaves."

~Buddha

 

"Men often become what they believe themselves to be. If I believe I cannot do something, it makes me incapable of doing it. But when I believe I can, then I acquire the ability to do it even if I didn't have it in the beginning."

~Ghandi

 

There's no magic with this. If someone believes there is hope, they will act through that, and the situation will change. It is irrelevant whether a supernatural God did this or not. If they are able to affect a positive change, then didn't "God" do it for them in this sense, whether or not God is 'up there'? It was the belief that affected the change.

I hate to keep respectfully disagreeing but as cute as that is it has no basis. Studies have show that praying and positive thought have no effect. The study conducted dealt with cancer. Often the positive thought is accompanied by hard work dedication and somehow the positive though seems to get more credit than it deserves.I admit that it is positive and helps change you perspective but you can't think something so. You can think til the cows come home and it won't change a thing in my book

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Oh this phone sucks I typed a great response and look what happened. It was long too.

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God never helped me when I was weary, but a daily jog sure did.

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Yes, I meant the belief in a god is like a placebo. Obviously, doctors do not use placebos to cure cancer patients. (But they might use placebos as a control to test a new cancer drug.) But doctors might use placebo pills to "cure" patients with somatoform disorders, chronic pain, restless legs, mild depression, etc. Studies done on placebo uses concluded that giving placebo pills work better than no placebos. Two placebo pills work better than one placebo pill. Placebo shots work better than placebo patches. And so on.

The human mind has an amazing capacity to heal itself (within reason)- mind over matter. Thoughts influence emotions and behaviour, which in turn influence overall health.

No, you don't encourage someone to live in denial or sit with cognitive dissonance, but if they have a healthy faith in religion; if their belief in a god appears to be helping them cope positively with life, that should be reason enough to encourage them to keep their faith.

Good churches do exist; I left one. Not every church is out to suck your money and violate your children. Not every christian is a judgmental hypocritical greedy little troll hell-bent on single-handedy destroying the scientific community and burning every condom on the planet. Some christians are good honest people, they just have different beliefs about the world.

Anyhow, as far as science is concerned, religious beliefs are neither true nor false anyway because they aren't falsifiable (able to be tested).

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cancer is just a metaphor in this example. but placebo's are not engineered to change, cure, or alter, anything or any condition. if someone claims they experienced comfort from a placebo, good for them....but the placebo itself changed nothing about their condition and the scientist who came up with it can confirm that.

I believe I said this in my response. But the point is that to say the placebo is "no good" because it didn't cure the cancer, even though it eased their suffering through belief misses the point. It worked. It eased their suffering by allowing them to let go of their anxiety. That is the point.

 

TB used the placebo analogy above and i understand what he's saying so i kept with that analogy but I still think it to be more than a placebo. i think its more of a drug that produces mental effects but changes nothing about the situation.

A drug? Goodness, you can call any belief you have about anything in your normal day then 'a drug'. And how do you say it produces mental effects, but changes nothing about the situation? If someone believes they can succeed, they will act on that belief and that produces material effects. The same is true if someone doesn't belief. They will not act, and they will also have a result in the material world. They don't go out and get the job, they stay where they are. If something affects the mental state, it will affect the physical state, in one manner or another. Again though, I'm not talking outrageous miracle claims like floating on air, regrowing amputated limbs, walking on water, etc. But as as you think, as you believe, you act, and you become - one thing or another.

 

 

"We are shaped by our thoughts; we become what we think. When the mind is pure, joy follows like a shadow that never leaves."

~Buddha

 

"Men often become what they believe themselves to be. If I believe I cannot do something, it makes me incapable of doing it. But when I believe I can, then I acquire the ability to do it even if I didn't have it in the beginning."

~Ghandi

 

There's no magic with this. If someone believes there is hope, they will act through that, and the situation will change. It is irrelevant whether a supernatural God did this or not. If they are able to affect a positive change, then didn't "God" do it for them in this sense, whether or not God is 'up there'? It was the belief that affected the change.

I hate to keep respectfully disagreeing but as cute as that is it has no basis. Studies have show that praying and positive thought have no effect.

No effect on what? Cancer? Did you not read the words I wrote? I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I've addressed this very specifically. I'm not talking about curing cancer or regrowing limbs here. Please re-read what I wrote.

 

The study conducted dealt with cancer. Often the positive thought is accompanied by hard work dedication and somehow the positive though seems to get more credit than it deserves.

Yep. Please read what I wrote, twice now.

 

I admit that it is positive and helps change you perspective but you can't think something so. You can think til the cows come home and it won't change a thing in my book

Change nothing? What change are you expecting? To levitate your car? This is not what I am saying at all. Do you mean to say you believe that your thoughts, your beliefs have no effect on your attitudes, and then from that your actions? This is really, really simple stuff. No magic. Although, for you to believe your thoughts have no effect on your world, that things just simply "happen", is in fact "magical thinking". You don't think you influence anything?? If you do, where did that influence begin? Your thoughts, per chance? Your beliefs?

 

What I hear you saying is you think prayer or belief or positive thought is about performing magic. This is not what I am saying, nor would I suggest.

 

P.S. How the hell is what I said "cute"?

 

sorry for the flub. I saw you mentioned cancer in your post but I had to be up front with the nature of the study if Im going to site a statistic. even though it was done on sick people in a hospital i feel it could be applied to a lot more situations particularly where hard work and determination (which are useless for cancer) would be of use.

 

to set the record straight,I am known in my circles for my optimism particulaly when things arent looking good. I know that it helps to have the right mindset to win in a tight situation. But I do put this optimism in its place. It changes nothing about the situation other than my perception. On the flip side you can be a pessimistic person and think your going to die,lose, or fail and live,win, or triumph. you can hope to live through cancer and know you're going to beat it and then die. to me this shows that positive thought yields no tangible result. Disease can be a stretch for some so lets take sports for example. I think I will win. I believe it...i lose. Thought accomplished nothing even though my mind was in the right place physically i didnt accomplish what my brain visualized. I was a division one athlete in college and I saw year after year people who were motivated and had all the right thoughts but they suck.

 

Im in AGREEMENT with you that positive thought helps but I know that only "physical changes physical". Your thoughts may give you motivation but motivation alone changes nothing. same with prayer you can throw them up all day but dont expect it to change anything.

 

I agree in THOUGH<MINDSET<ACTION<RESULT. I just want to make sure people are going around with THOUGHT=RESULT. There are many more variables.

 

Sorry about the cute statement reading it back it looks bad. I didnt mean it that way. I have a distain for this new age self help rhetoric that gets people teh think their bank accounts bigger and see themselve get promoted or think the extra weight off. I am a believer that nothing moves unless its shoved. sorry again for the misunderstanding.

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to set the record straight,I am known in my circles for my optimism particulaly when things arent looking good. I know that it helps to have the right mindset to win in a tight situation. But I do put this optimism in its place. It changes nothing about the situation other than my perception.

You're closer to seeing this, and I'll try to expand your perception the next tick here till it clicks into place. It is something important to understand in how things work in the world. Yes, as you said thought>mindset>action>result. Perception is key. How we perceive a thing largely influencing our choices on how we act and behave. Those actions follow right along, and people do not even realize how they are largely determined by those perceptions. Let's call those beliefs, which they largely are.

 

Your example of the athlete 'believing he is going to win', gives it his best, but fails is a good example. But not in the way you presented it in the negative. Through your example I get why you don't see this, and it goes to the heart of why. What really, actually did happen to the athlete who 'believed'? Very, very likely he performed better. Had he said to himself, "I'll never win this game. I'm doomed", he would have not done as well. His 'hope' resulted in actual, tangible results. His performance improved. Actually overcoming other laws of physics such as his body mass, musculature, etc in order to attain the exact result that he put out there as a symbol of faith for himself didn't materialize how he chose to envision it, only shows how his faith was, shall we say, immature. Not that belief or faith doesn't do anything at all. It's not a case of "I believed I would win and didn't. Fuck belief!" He did 'win'. He did better for himself, even though he misses that fact because he was thinking magically.

 

I'll explain....

 

On the flip side you can be a pessimistic person and think your going to die,lose, or fail and live,win, or triumph. you can hope to live through cancer and know you're going to beat it and then die. to me this shows that positive thought yields no tangible result.

You're looking at a specific end. I am correct in what I said about magical thinking. I'm just underscoring this here in the example above, but will explain in detail momentarily.

 

Im in AGREEMENT with you that positive thought helps but I know that only "physical changes physical". Your thoughts may give you motivation but motivation alone changes nothing. same with prayer you can throw them up all day but dont expect it to change anything.

We obviously are in agreement that simply sitting on your couch and trying to will the remote control to fly across the room and land in your hand will not change reality. But believing that if he gets the remote and uses it, will in fact change the physical. His belief got his ass up off the couch. We disagree that only the physical changes the physical. It began with a thought, it ended with the physical. This happens in everything we mentally create. We envision it, we believe it, we act upon it, it is realized. Again, not talking magical thinking here, like levitating your car.

 

Sorry about the cute statement reading it back it looks bad. I didnt mean it that way. I have a distain for this new age self help rhetoric that gets people teh think their bank accounts bigger and see themselve get promoted or think the extra weight off. I am a believer that nothing moves unless its shoved. sorry again for the misunderstanding.

Now to the meat of what I wanted to get at. Really try to get this, as it will require a shift in overall perception. But it is key to really seeing this. First of all, New Age does not apply to me, other than when someone doesn't get what I see and try to find some placeholder label for it, as you did. New Age gives a perfect example of what I want to make my point about.

 

What the New Age movement really is has a core flaw in it. Its the same flaw you are making in your thinking in the negative about faith and belief, and "God" even. It is the same flaw at the heart of Christianity. So that Christianity, New Age, and Neo-Atheism share it is no huge surprise since one gave rise to the others. There is a certain mentality we inherit culturally, and that is that of a strict dualism. New Age is essentially "experimental Christianity". It takes other cultures religious symbols and language and replaces those of Christianity with it, but still at its heart externalizing all of it. It views everything transcendent, this 'power', as outside themselves. Instead of praying to Jesus to make things happen from this 'power source', they now pray to the Universe. They try various and sundry practices, which in fact do yield some positive benefits for them, but the whole while placing the real 'magic' outside themselves. Practices, positive thoughts, prayers, etc, become ways to get the Universe to 'do things' for you.

 

They do not understand how that even though all of those things yield positive benefits, they set themselves up to 'lose faith' because they think the power lies outside themselves. More importantly, they do not come to inhabit the power within themselves. Now, I'm sure you're jumping up and down saying, "Yes! We are in control!". But this is said at the exclusion of actually finding out how to find that power within you. It eliminates magical thinking in the sense of calling on some external force making things happen, be that in the Christian or New Age versions of that, but then fails to realize that all of those practices were tools towards the realization of that magic (metaphorically speaking) within themselves, and instead turns inward to the strength of their own will and determination alone. The negative of the former is that it completely hands over any inner realization to some external force. The negative of the latter is that it doesn't look beyond its own self-sense towards a higher self-realization. It has no Yoga, no internal practices towards moving beyond the ego. It is stuck with a deterministic, reductionist reality of strict dualities with them in their skin sacks embedded in their ego structures, and the world outside of themselves.

 

So it is in essence still a radical dualism as in Christianity, just rejecting anything other than a purely naturalistic reality. Hence, why you see that thoughts are isolated in the head, and separate from the physical world, and your natural response is to the see the flip side of the same coin in the New Age ideas about thoughts controlling the Universe. It's the same mindset inherited from Christianity, just expressed in different ways.

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I think we are splitting hairs here. But the funny thing is that we seem to agree on 100% of the material yet we walk away with 2 different verdicts. LOL.

 

I think it all because of the technically of Direct result vs. Indirect result.

 

Antlerman, I really enjoy your perspective and insight. All too often we dont do enough thinking but reading your posts you actually have to stop and digest it. I wish more people did that.

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