Woo!

[Antlerman]

Being an ex-Christian doesn't mean you've decoupled yourself from the traditions inherent in the religion. How often have we seen someone who throws off the more obvious shackles of church attendance and science-denial, yet still believes in her heart of hearts that sex is evil or scary? Or that Someone Up There is watching and judging us and will exact vengeance for crimes committed? Or that the world really is just? There are a lot of superstitions that go into a modern human; some are generally benevolent ("people are good"), and some are patently harmful ("people don't lie about important things", "vaccinations cause autism") and even totally absurd ("the government did 9/11!"). Even an atheist can fall victim to a superstition.

 

Part of deconversion is not only decoupling from the outward shows of the religion, but re-thinking all the unspoken dogmas that went with that old allegiance.

I agree with the heart of what you are saying here, with some exceptions. I wouldn't put being an idealist, thinking the people are in essence good at heart is a superstition. That is categorically different. Not everything you believed as a Christian was operating at the magical level. But I very much agree with you that simply changing what one believes in does not at all change the general mode of thinking that that belief system was part of. We can be just as much a black and white thinker in Atheism as we were in Christianity. It is a process of not only changing what we believe, but how we think altogether. Put another way, there was a reason why the religion attracted us in the first place. It spoke to the mode of thought we were operating from.

 

A friend of mine having left the church as well as me after having graduated their Bible College together said to me some years later, "I'm so glad I have the truth now." I chuckled and said, "I remember us both saying that exact same thing when we were zealous believers back then too." He paused, then responded, "But the difference is now I really DO have the truth.". He was serious, of course. But it goes to speak of the type of mentality that goes into 'being right'. It's a black and white, externalized truth sort of thinking, amplified by Modernity in culture, which turns Biblical Authority in Christianity, into Science and reason in Scientism.

 

I say it's great we make that step forward into reason, but there's a lot more to change than just what you believe in. BTW, I don't have superstitions. I don't see the world as some externalized force that I need to magically interface with. It's all within us.

[stryper]

the black and white thinking invades even the Atheist community.

 

Us V Them is always around. There will always be people who will try to shrink the world into that dichotomy.

 

The reality is wondrous variation in people.

[Akheia]

AM - how do you define a superstition? I want to engage with this idea but don't want to make assumptions about what we're talking about. I know what I mean by one--a belief we hold despite evidence lacking or to the contrary--but what do you mean?

[Antlerman]

AM - how do you define a superstition? I want to engage with this idea but don't want to make assumptions about what we're talking about. I know what I mean by one--a belief we hold despite evidence lacking or to the contrary--but what do you mean?

Thanks for asking the question. I view a superstition as operating at the level of magic. Magic sees the world as this external force that is somehow connected to them through these invisible, mysterious threads. Superstition tries to understand what these invisible threads may be, playing a sort of connect-the-dots, cause and effect reality. Magical thinking envisions that we can effect the world through these invisible threads through performing various actions to effect that 'force' to get it to work for us. It's a very prerational understanding of the world and reality.

 

I hope that helps explain my thoughts here. One thing to add to this however, since you referenced talismans, that in one sense they can be used in ways that don't stoop to superstition. They can act as symbolic representations of something beyond magic, something transcendent. Touching a particular icon, can also evoke a certain mindfulness, which in fact does engage a certain 'real' magic within us. The power of our own will through belief. Some thoughts to chew on there...

[pandora]

No woo for me, unless one considers communing with their pets and meditation woo.

[lunaticheathen]

Heh, the mention of gris-gris reminded me that most would view my Vodou practices very very "woo."

 

I AM QUEEN WOO OF THE WOOTARDS! BOW BEFORE MY SACRED SNAKE!

[stryper]

Heh, the mention of gris-gris reminded me that most would view my Vodou practices very very "woo."

 

I AM QUEEN WOO OF THE WOOTARDS! BOW BEFORE MY SACRED SNAKE!

 

 

Wait your a girl with a "snake"........

[lunaticheathen]

Heh, the mention of gris-gris reminded me that most would view my Vodou practices very very "woo."

 

I AM QUEEN WOO OF THE WOOTARDS! BOW BEFORE MY SACRED SNAKE!

 

 

Wait your a girl with a "snake"........

 

You should see me in ceremonial dress.

[Akheia]

After posting that I thought of you

 

Girls with snakes get ALLLLLL the guys. Dangit. Oh wait, Isis was huge in my pantheon too... I can make this work.

 

AM: I'm not sure I'm evolved yet to understand what you said, but I think I get the general idea. But dude, if you're totally lacking in all magical thinking and all superstitions, you do realize you're the next Lama, right? Sorry to rain on your hummus and all... Hope you look okay with a shaved head.

[Antlerman]

AM: I'm not sure I'm evolved yet to understand what you said, but I think I get the general idea. But dude, if you're totally lacking in all magical thinking and all superstitions, you do realize you're the next Lama, right? Sorry to rain on your hummus and all... Hope you look okay with a shaved head.

It's not all that difficult to see actually. What I am drawing from is Jean Gebser in referring to the magical stage of our human evolution. You can jump to the section on The Magic Structure of Consciousness here: http://www.gaiamind.org/Gebser.html

 

I don't imagine myself being the next Lama or anything, since for one reason alone I don't have any internal knowledge of the lineage. That makes me pretty useless to a tradition that way. Besides, I have a very full head of hair and since I'm not balding, I see no reason to rush things along upstairs. Lacking magical thinking just means I've internalized this, to recognize it within myself. The 'magic' is us. All we need do is find that center, that ground and there is an awareness that arises that understands these things. In essence, that sense of separation, isolation is gone and you no longer externalize it as outside you you have to try to manipulate in one manner or another. It's an internal cooperation with the world.

[Akheia]

This is like that scene out of Willow where the midget discovers which finger the magic is really in, isn't it?

[Antlerman]

This is like that scene out of Willow where the midget discovers which finger the magic is really in, isn't it?

?

[Noggy]

I believe in mindfulness. That seems pretty woo.

[Antlerman]

I believe in mindfulness. That seems pretty woo.

What?? How? How is being aware woo?

[stryper]

This is like that scene out of Willow where the midget discovers which finger the magic is really in, isn't it?

?

 

There is a scene in the begining of the movie Willow where the title character is going before the town mage to be tested for training. He asks all the recruits which finger has the most magic or something to that effect. As each selects a finger the mage shakes his head now. Willow choose not the thumb.

 

Later the High Aldwin (mage) is walking with Williow and asks him which finger he wanted to choose and Willow stated the thumb.

 

At which point he states

 

High Aldwin: Magic is the bloodstream of the universe. Forget all you know, or think you know. All that you require is your intuition.

 

This is also a movie filled with gems like this.

 

High Aldwin: I will consult the bones!

[he shakes the bones out of the pouch and studies them]

High Aldwin: [in a low voice, to Willow] The bones tell me nothing.

[pause]

High Aldwin: Have you any love for this child?

Willow: [looks at Elora] Yes. Yes, I do.

High Aldwin: [standing] The bones have spoken!

 

 

Madmartigan is played by a much younger Val Kilmar. Who I think goes shirtless a couple of time ladies....

 

 

Madmartigan: Did I really... Did I really say those things, last night, in your tent?

Sorsha: You said you loved me.

Madmartigan: I don't remember that.

Sorsha: You lied to me.

Madmartigan: No, I... I just wasn't myself last night.

Sorsha: I suppose my power enchanted you and you were helpless against it.

Madmartigan: Sort of.

Sorsha: Then what?

Madmartigan: It... went away.

Sorsha: Went away? "I dwell in darkness without you" and it *went away*?

 

slap slap kiss indeed.

[Noggy]

I believe in mindfulness. That seems pretty woo.

 

People don't be mindful unless they are approaching it from a spiritual (woo) perspective, yes?

[blackpudd1n]

In my dad's view, magic is really nothing more than the ability to change one's perspective about a situation or occurence. While we have our little digs at each other, he has a very rational approach to it. Often what he refers to as magic is something he does to help my nieces and nephews to deal with a situation in a non-religious way.

 

For instance, one of my sisters has a five year old daughter from a prior relationship which was abusive. The girl's father is an abusive dick, and even my niece hates seeing him. She is very close to her step-father, and has given him the role of father in her life. Her biological father is just someone the courts make her see, and when she's old enough, that will stop, because through no prompting by my sister, she's already disowned him.

 

Anyway, we had a situation recently where my niece was really acting out after a visit to her father's, and ended up having to be picked up from school because she'd gone utterly hysterical. My sister eventually got my niece to talk, and she told her that while she was visiting her father, he'd told her that if her mummy dies, he's going to take her and she'll never see her beloved step-father, grandparents, or this side of the family ever again. So my niece became petrified that her mum was going to die while she was at school and she'd never see any of the rest of this side of the family ever again. He really did a number on her mind. So dad bought my sister a bracelet, and told my niece that it was a magical bracelet that would keep her mummy safe when she was not around.

 

Sure it's magical thinking and all, but christ, we needed some way to calm her down and allow her to go about her everyday life without this huge fear hanging over her head. The bracelet has since broken, which upset my niece, but once she realised her mum was still okay even when not wearing the magical bracelet, she was okay. I might be a died-in-the-wool atheist these days, but there is definitely a time and a place for magical thinking, especially when dealing with the irrational fears of young children.

[Antlerman]

I believe in mindfulness. That seems pretty woo.

 

People don't be mindful unless they are approaching it from a spiritual (woo) perspective, yes?

No. It depends on how you define spiritual. If you mean supernatural, disembodied entities, maybe, depending how you view that. But if you mean spiritual in the sense of higher realization, than no.

[Deva]

The spiritual life to a great extent consists of finding out who you really are. It's not easy.

[Antlerman]

The spiritual life to a great extent consists of finding out who you really are. It's not easy.

Couldn't say it better.

[Falloutdude]

I've come to see biocentrism as solving a lot of issues I had with strict "materialism" (from my understanding the criteria for "material" seems to be kind of ambiguous at times)

Of course I'm not even close to claiming I completely buy into it, or it's true. Just interesting.

 

I believe in mindfulness. That seems pretty woo.

 

People don't be mindful unless they are approaching it from a spiritual (woo) perspective, yes?

.

 

Not really....I mean mindfulness is only focusing/honing your attention and/or focus, often incorporating senses. Woo would be largely ideas dealing with meta-physical concepts, or things relating to something esoteric, and often cryptic. Spirituality can deal with emotions and/or meta-cognition, but not be "woo"; it also depends upon how you define spirituality (Ie personal/emotional development, or as something "beyond the physical"). Honestly though, what's "woo" and what's not seems to be pretty fuzzy, especially when dealing with the more abstract kinds of science (ie quantum mechanics). I'd say anything that involves emotional sorts of gnosticism or concepts which diverge from logic or evidence as a basis for their claims, would be qualify as "woo".

 

PS Everyone where does this term come from? I've seen it all over rationalwiki.org, but this post makes it seem like it's more widespread term.

[Ouroboros]

The spiritual life to a great extent consists of finding out who you really are. It's not easy.

And sometimes to find out who you're not. That's not easy either.

[Deva]

The spiritual life to a great extent consists of finding out who you really are. It's not easy.

And sometimes to find out who you're not. That's not easy either.

 

Yes, of course. Everyone is always telling you who you are, starting with your parents. You must negate all of these labels in a deep way.

[Akheia]

Thanks for explaining further, AM. And you really need to see Willow. It's got Mad Martigan in it. And he is awesome. (For the gamers in here, I do all my kobold voices in games I GM like the brownies.)

[bornagainathiest]

Thank you Deva and thanks too, A-Man.

 

"No. It depends on how you define spiritual. If you mean supernatural, disembodied entities, maybe, depending how you view that. But if you mean spiritual in the sense of higher realization, than no."

 

"The spiritual life to a great extent consists of finding out who you really are. It's not easy."

 

For a good while I've struggled to understand what other members of this forum could possibly mean by the word, 'spiritual', especially when they're Ex-Christians. But now a light dawns.

 

So, when Deva or the Antlerman talk about 'spiritual' things, they aren't referring to the Judaeo-Christian understanding I was familiar with. Instead, they mean deeper and higher forms of understanding or inner voyages of self-discovery, self-realization and self-awareness.

 

If I'm on the right path here, please let me know. If I'm wandering into misunderstanding, please let me know about that too.

 

Thanks guys.

I think (and I hope) I've turned a corner on this one.

 

BAA.