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Goodbye Jesus

Backsliding


Adam5

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The fact that he labelled this thread "Backsliding" indicates skepticism as his default position but that he has been giving in to something that he believes is wrong. He may want us to help him to see the light. Or he may not...

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I think we all need to respect that Adam is on a difficult journey and cut him some slack. It isn't uncommon to deconvert and convert back and forth a while before making the final plunge.

 

To Adam: "Re-examine all you have been told. Reject that which insults your soul." ~Walt Whitman If that means holding on to some faith, more power to you. If not, know we are here to help you in your journey! It is one we all must make and it is very painful, but I promise that all those conflicting feelings and all that cognitive dissonance gets better with time when you stay true to yourself and your deepest convictions. If you ignore your core, your innermost feelings and beliefs, the conflict and sense of unease will never go away.

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The bottom line is we all have faith because we all have some belief we hold through subjective reasoning. We trust it to be true based on our life experiences. Having such faith is not irrational, and it is just weasel words to claim otherwise. There is good evidence that God exists and Christ is who He says He is. That said there are many truths a Christian must take on faith. We can not possiblly know everything. There is nothing wrong or irrational about it. Non believers simply cling to the notion of faith being irrational to comfort themselves.

 

You, sir, are an idiot.

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The bottom line is we all have faith because we all have some belief we hold through subjective reasoning. We trust it to be true based on our life experiences. Having such faith is not irrational, and it is just weasel words to claim otherwise. There is good evidence that God exists and Christ is who He says He is. That said there are many truths a Christian must take on faith. We can not possiblly know everything. There is nothing wrong or irrational about it. Non believers simply cling to the notion of faith being irrational to comfort themselves.

 

You, sir, are an idiot.

And intellectually dishonest as well. 'good evidence that god exists and Christ is who he says he is' shows the mentality behind this cult.

 

1. There is MORE evidence, in my view, against the xtian god existing especially when one accepts the bible as being the truth. Answered prayer, miracles, a god caring about each and every one of us are just examples of the bullshit they buy without any such proof of any such thing.

 

2. And regarding the Christ is who he says he is - exactly who is that? Even Jesus seemed confused at times regarding his role among people. Just critically comparing the 4 gospels exposes this myth. Then Paul comes along and reinvents a new and improved Christ model just like any marketing guru would do.

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The bottom line is we all have faith because we all have some belief we hold through subjective reasoning. We trust it to be true based on our life experiences. Having such faith is not irrational, and it is just weasel words to claim otherwise. There is good evidence that God exists and Christ is who He says He is. That said there are many truths a Christian must take on faith. We can not possiblly know everything. There is nothing wrong or irrational about it. Non believers simply cling to the notion of faith being irrational to comfort themselves.

 

I find most Christians equivocating on "evidence."

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1. There is MORE evidence, in my view, against the xtian god existing especially when one accepts the bible as being the truth. Answered prayer, miracles, a god caring about each and every one of us are just examples of the bullshit they buy without any such proof of any such thing.

 

In the last year before I lost my faith in Jesus Christ, I began praying for a man. He had lost his leg and I asked Jesus go grow him a new leg. But Jesus, in his infinite wisdom, decided that it would be better for the man to continue for the rest of his life to struggle without a leg. God is really good at finding car keys or having it not rain during your trip or allowing your favorite football team to win a few games. However if you want to pray for the safty of US troops in a warzone, like my Bible study did every Sunday of the entire war, then God will answer "no". God's answer is always "no" if you ask for something that cannot happen on it's own. This is exactly what we would expect to happen if those same prayers had been directed to Zeus, the Flying Spagettii Monster, Invisible Pink Unicorns, the Easter Bunny or anybody else who doesn't exist.

 

2. And regarding the Christ is who he says he is - exactly who is that? Even Jesus seemed confused at times regarding his role among people. Just critically comparing the 4 gospels exposes this myth. Then Paul comes along and reinvents a new and improved Christ model just like any marketing guru would do.

 

Matthew and Luke are a critique of Mark. They tried to fix what Mark got wrong. John is a critique of the other three. And as soon as the ink dried on John dozens more gospels sprang up. Making up stories about Jesus was a very popular trend. I don't suppose the Christians will take this into consideration.

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Thank you everyone for all your posts. I have had chance now to read through the entire thread, and it was an informative read.

 

I have struggling with belief/unbelief, and finding giving up Christianity difficult, and even questioning my sanity.

 

I didn't go to church in the end yesterday. Thanks for your comments on this thread on Friday, even the unfriendly ones :) - it helped a lot.

 

I think coming back has is doing me some good. To get a grip on reality again. I'm in a strange place. Worrying and obsessing about Christianity for years has really messed my head up.

 

Thanks again, Adam

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Sorry it's been so hard for you, Adam. I went through a few difficult years as well. I hope that you take breaks from the struggle and give yourself time to recuperate. Or if you are up to it, an intense obsessive study might lead to something finally clicking. I did about a year of that.

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In the last year before I lost my faith in Jesus Christ, I began praying for a man. He had lost his leg and I asked Jesus go grow him a new leg. But Jesus, in his infinite wisdom, decided that it would be better for the man to continue for the rest of his life to struggle without a leg. God is really good at finding car keys or having it not rain during your trip or allowing your favorite football team to win a few games. However if you want to pray for the safty of US troops in a warzone, like my Bible study did every Sunday of the entire war, then God will answer "no". God's answer is always "no" if you ask for something that cannot happen on it's own. This is exactly what we would expect to happen if those same prayers had been directed to Zeus, the Flying Spagettii Monster, Invisible Pink Unicorns, the Easter Bunny or anybody else who doesn't exist.

 

Regarding the 'answered prayer' myth - as you probably know, 'they' love to say a god always answers prayers even when it says 'no' since, to them that's an answer. I beg to differ. If I were a math teacher and asked the class 'how much is 2 + 2?', the answer I'm looking for is '4'. If they respond with anything other than that then it's merely a response - an incorrect answer. So, regarding prayer, if I were looking for a 'yes' and I get nothing but silence, well the conclusion should be obvious, right?

 

You also bring up something else that is interesting. When you prayed for a new leg you must've had incredible faith to actually expect this to occur and I say this with admiration, not derision by any means. In my own, 25 year failed walk, my prayer requests never approached anything like that. But the results were the same, like yours - nothing. In fact, the straw that broke this camel's back was another one of those prayers that I thought was answered but turned out to be unanswered. When it happened I guess I threw in the towel. I wasn't upset or anything like that. I simply looked out the living room window and exclaimed, "I get it! I finally get it". Nothing profound there - just a light bulb going off in my head and telling me it's been futile - all bullshit and nothing more.

 

Lastly, in a humorous vein, you referred to praying to Zeus and other beings and expecting similar results. I actually conducted a loose experiment while coming out of the cult. The late George Carlin had a standup act in which he said he prayed to Joe Pesci (the actor who plays mostly gangster roles) and got as many answered prayers as any you could get from a god. So I began doing likewise and got about a 50-50 response. It involved minor stuff which could be deduced by a theist as answered prayer with no effort.

 

Well, one day we're in a supermarket and I'm looking for frozen onions (my wife uses them to cook ground beef - easier than cutting up regular onions). I couldn't find any in the freezer aisle so I began praying, out loud, to Joe Pesci, and my wife began cracking up. I jokingly admonished my wife - accusing her of 'mocking' my faith. LOL. When Pesci didn't answer my prayers about finding the frozen onions I immediately switched to praying to Zeus for the same thing. Lo and behold - my eyes began moving to the left of the door I'd been gazing in and the frozen onions were found and even on sale - 3 bags for $5. I then turned to my wife and said, I guess I have to switch gods, again. LOL

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I didn't know Zeus loves onions.

 

Learn Sumthin new here erry day.

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Adam,

 

Your honesty is refreshing... hang in there.

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So far your "lions" are pretty toothless. They are very good at avoiding the point though. They like red herring I guess. wink.png

 

 

Irony, thy name is Clay.

 

And appropriate.

 

Clay is easily molded into new forms. Once it is fried, it becomes stone that is fragile and easily shattered.

 

Since OC is making no arguments, taking no stand, and only arguing for the sake of it, there is nothing to shatter. He will only mold himself into whatever form in necessary to avoid actually answering a question or taking a stand.

 

 

ON TOPIC:

 

I perhaps may have been to quick to judge Adam5. My apologies.

 

Reading a few more posts from you in this thread it has become more apparent that you are working through some issues. One of which appears to be learning to think and choose for yourself.

 

This can be a difficult thing to learn. Old habits die hard, as they say. That said, the freedom you gain from thinking for yourself is better than anything.....except maybe sex.

 

The pain and anger is not to be discounted though. You will need to work through it. For some it was very hard and three plus years on they are still dealing with the fallout. Other like myself, it was simply a matter of leaving.

 

Take time and ask questions.

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1. There is MORE evidence, in my view, against the xtian god existing especially when one accepts the bible as being the truth. Answered prayer, miracles, a god caring about each and every one of us are just examples of the bullshit they buy without any such proof of any such thing.

 

In the last year before I lost my faith in Jesus Christ, I began praying for a man. He had lost his leg and I asked Jesus go grow him a new leg. But Jesus, in his infinite wisdom, decided that it would be better for the man to continue for the rest of his life to struggle without a leg. God is really good at finding car keys or having it not rain during your trip or allowing your favorite football team to win a few games. However if you want to pray for the safty of US troops in a warzone, like my Bible study did every Sunday of the entire war, then God will answer "no". God's answer is always "no" if you ask for something that cannot happen on it's own. This is exactly what we would expect to happen if those same prayers had been directed to Zeus, the Flying Spagettii Monster, Invisible Pink Unicorns, the Easter Bunny or anybody else who doesn't exist.

 

2. And regarding the Christ is who he says he is - exactly who is that? Even Jesus seemed confused at times regarding his role among people. Just critically comparing the 4 gospels exposes this myth. Then Paul comes along and reinvents a new and improved Christ model just like any marketing guru would do.

 

Matthew and Luke are a critique of Mark. They tried to fix what Mark got wrong. John is a critique of the other three. And as soon as the ink dried on John dozens more gospels sprang up. Making up stories about Jesus was a very popular trend. I don't suppose the Christians will take this into consideration.

 

Dont blaspheme the FSM please. :-) j/k.

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Thank you everyone for all your posts. I have had chance now to read through the entire thread, and it was an informative read.

 

I have struggling with belief/unbelief, and finding giving up Christianity difficult, and even questioning my sanity.

 

I didn't go to church in the end yesterday. Thanks for your comments on this thread on Friday, even the unfriendly ones smile.png - it helped a lot.

 

I think coming back has is doing me some good. To get a grip on reality again. I'm in a strange place. Worrying and obsessing about Christianity for years has really messed my head up.

 

Thanks again, Adam

 

Yes, it will do that. Fear, shame, guilt, OCD are Christianity's end products.

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Thank you everyone for all your posts. I have had chance now to read through the entire thread, and it was an informative read.

 

I have struggling with belief/unbelief, and finding giving up Christianity difficult, and even questioning my sanity.

 

I didn't go to church in the end yesterday. Thanks for your comments on this thread on Friday, even the unfriendly ones smile.png - it helped a lot.

 

I think coming back has is doing me some good. To get a grip on reality again. I'm in a strange place. Worrying and obsessing about Christianity for years has really messed my head up.

 

Thanks again, Adam

 

Hi Adam, I know how that "messing up" can be. Good to see you back on.

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Thank you everyone for all your posts. I have had chance now to read through the entire thread, and it was an informative read.

 

I have struggling with belief/unbelief, and finding giving up Christianity difficult, and even questioning my sanity.

 

I didn't go to church in the end yesterday. Thanks for your comments on this thread on Friday, even the unfriendly ones smile.png - it helped a lot.

 

I think coming back has is doing me some good. To get a grip on reality again. I'm in a strange place. Worrying and obsessing about Christianity for years has really messed my head up.

 

Thanks again, Adam

 

Hey Adam :)

 

No-one understands that struggle better than we do here. And if you have questions, you won't find a better resource than this place here for asking them. I understand your confusion. But you don't have to walk this journey alone. There are plenty of us here who will happily walk it with you, myself included. It's going to be okay :)

 

Love, Pudd :)

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There is good evidence yelrotflmao.gif that God exists and Christ {was} {what} He {allegedly said} He {was}.

 

Bullshit. But just for fun, roll it out OC. Anything you have, it's been a while since we've had any fish in the barrel to shoot at.

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Adam, sorry this is late (shoulder's killing me lately so I'm a bit scarce) but I'm glad you're really thinking about all this stuff. I'm sorry for being unkind. Good luck.

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The bottom line is we all have faith because we all have some belief we hold through subjective reasoning. We trust it to be true based on our life experiences. Having such faith is not irrational, and it is just weasel words to claim otherwise. There is good evidence that God exists and Christ is who He says He is. That said there are many truths a Christian must take on faith. We can not possiblly know everything. There is nothing wrong or irrational about it. Non believers simply cling to the notion of faith being irrational to comfort themselves.

 

I find most Christians equivocating on "evidence."

 

And "faith." They must always be prevailed upon to define both words as they intend to use them, and stick to those definitions..

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Thank you everyone for all your posts. I have had chance now to read through the entire thread, and it was an informative read.

 

I have struggling with belief/unbelief, and finding giving up Christianity difficult, and even questioning my sanity.

 

I didn't go to church in the end yesterday. Thanks for your comments on this thread on Friday, even the unfriendly ones smile.png - it helped a lot.

 

I think coming back has is doing me some good. To get a grip on reality again. I'm in a strange place. Worrying and obsessing about Christianity for years has really messed my head up.

 

Thanks again, Adam

I haven't read all 11 pages of this, but about half of it. What I didn't see in there was your stated reasons, or questions of you as to why you want to go back to Christianity. You just simply said you were, not why. I'm not someone who is going to say it's necessarily because you're afraid, or need some sort of security blanket or such things. I don't understand religious motives as always being reduced to those factors so easily. I don't dismiss religious sentiments out of hand for everyone, and I can appreciate someone finding positive things in the more open-minded forms of the Christian faith if that's right for them.

 

So my question is what is it you find attractive about it that you are not getting outside of it? Is it because of of some positive need not being met, or is it simply a fear response to stepping out into the unknown? The reason I ask that is because you in this post you said, "I have struggling with belief/unbelief, and finding giving up Christianity difficult, and even questioning my sanity." That sounds like you have a reason to not believe, and a reason to believe. What are those, if I may ask?

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That sounds like you have a reason to not believe, and a reason to believe. What are those, if I may ask?

 

Hi Antlerman, I had a bit of a blip last week. I dont really have any good answers myself why I fell back into it. I only stopped going to church at the end of January. I think the pull was emotional for me. I am in my 40s and have a lifetime of conditioning into it, and its been a big part of my identity for so long, of who I think I am or thought I was, it is difficult for me to let go of it. Reasons not to believe.. how long have you got :) Like everyone else here, couldnt square the beliefs with reason and reality. Cheers, Adam

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That sounds like you have a reason to not believe, and a reason to believe. What are those, if I may ask?

 

Hi Antlerman, I had a bit of a blip last week. I dont really have any good answers myself why I fell back into it. I only stopped going to church at the end of January. I think the pull was emotional for me. I am in my 40s and have a lifetime of conditioning into it, and its been a big part of my identity for so long, of who I think I am or thought I was, it is difficult for me to let go of it. Reasons not to believe.. how long have you got smile.png Like everyone else here, couldnt square the beliefs with reason and reality. Cheers, Adam

The social aspects of it are a huge draw. I know for myself when I left, that was the foremost thing I missed. There was a sense of community and family I had there, the loss of that was tough. But I wasn't where they were at anymore and couldn't share that common ground that was the basis for our community. In reality, I knew it had to go deeper than a simple common belief. In order to have that, I would have to sacrifice being where they were still at, where I was no longer at, in order to follow my own path. The choice to be on my path was more important. And that says volumes. The road alone, is much greater than being a part of a group.

 

FWIW, a Shakespeare quote really stuck with me through that change. "This above all: to thine own self be true". That is not selfishness. That is embracing truth.

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I can understand missing the social aspects of church. When I stopped going to church, not only did I kill what little social life I had, but I apparently lost all of my family on my wife's side as well (which was not unexpected). That's why I'm now taking the first steps toward branching out again and meeting people in non-church settings.

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Define faith...then explain why it's a good thing.

 

OK, faith is a belief in God or in the beliefs of a religion based on spiritual insight and not proof. How's that smile.png

It can be a good thing, depending on what your faith is in. Faith in the teachings of Jesus I think are good for teaching us values such as treating each other with human kindness.

 

Since when do you need Jesus to teach you how to be a good citizen? And you'll find other sages with the same basic advice who are not affiliated with the OT's god.

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Define faith...then explain why it's a good thing.

 

OK, faith is a belief in God or in the beliefs of a religion based on spiritual insight and not proof. How's that smile.png

It can be a good thing, depending on what your faith is in. Faith in the teachings of Jesus I think are good for teaching us values such as treating each other with human kindness.

 

Since when do you need Jesus to teach you how to be a good citizen? And you'll find other sages with the same basic advice who are not affiliated with the OT's god.

Funny how they emphasize the 'nice' teachings of Jesus but seem to overlook the 'harsher' ones such as hating your family in order to follow him or just brushing off your own mother as he did when told she was standing outside waiting for him.....
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