Overcame Faith Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 There are no hidden implications to what I wrote. I was speaking only of myself and meant it in no judgmental fashion whatsoever. Who am I to say that because someone thinks differently than me that they are less enlightened? You're just a guy who realized you like brett beers and wanted to share your experience with others. (It's an parable/analogy, of course, I don't know if you like brett beer) And there are some others who have the same experience. No harm in sharing. Good analogy. I haven't tried Brett beers, but I think I will have to now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 It was necessary for a time. Agree. And not everyone walks the same path. A certain position or place on the path is not better or worse than another in the overall perspective. We all are where it's best for each one of us right now. But where I am right now is better than where I was before. It just doesn't mean it's better for someone else to be where I am because it's good for me. I think what you say is important. One person's view is not necessarily better than someone else's view - they are two different views. That is the essence of my losing my rigidity of thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 I can understand the frustration with a word such as "spirituality" for which there are various definitions. For me, it is very close to aesthetics (an entire area of philosophy) and it also encompassed finding out who or what I am as opposed to what people tell me I am. Yes, the lack of a defnition of spirituality can be frustrating. I find it to be my biggest stumbling block. For example, when I hear Christians speak of "spirituality" what they usually mean is belief in trinity and all the rest associated with their religion. For that reason, I think the word is an understanbable turn off for our fellow exChristians. On the other hand, I like what you said about it being close to aesthetics and most especially that it encompasses "...finding out who or what I am as opposed to what people tell me I am." I also think there is a really good possibility that consciousness does not end with the death of the body. No, I can't prove it, but I think of life as this never ending process that we have to come to terms with. The teachings of Buddhism help me to do that. As I said in the OP, consciousness is one of the things I have been thinking about. Just what is it? Is it purely a physical phenomonen related to our brains or is there something else to it? Definitely worth thinking about. What works for me obviously doesn't work for everyone. I think knowing this, and respecting each other, with our different views, is the order of the day. So true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 I do not know what it means to be "spiritual" either which is why my definition is so broad. To me it is an internal inquiry about whether there is more to this life just our material existence. I wonder what evolutionary purpose spirituality has served. Maybe it's a driver for hope, without which we would perish? I wonder the same thing about what evolutionary purpose spirituality has served. But I also wonder something different. I also wonder if "spirituality" has anything at all to do with evolution. Who knows? ...my rigid thinking was part of an evolution of my post-Christianity mindset. It was necessary for a time. I am a purely black and white thinker. My thinking is extremely rigid. If I had emraced gray, my faith might have survived. But for me, gray is like a seven-sided Rubix Cube with 41 colors. I think I actually need to re-wire my brain and develop new pathways so I can be gray, liberal and pluralistic. Then it seems to me that your black and white thinking served you well if it helped you escape from Christianity. After I left the religion, I purposefully embraced black and white thinking as my protection from being sucked back into that or another similar religion. It has only been with time that I have learned to loosen up a bit and not feel the need to protect myself from falling back into religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Just to be clear, Overcame Faith quoted Positivist in post #29 both times, and not myself. I see the limitations and also the apparent safety of the black and white way of thinking. I tend toward it myself because I was brought up that way, but real life does not conform too well to the idea of Truth with a capital "T" or one answer for all life's problems. Most of us here have found this out the hard way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 As I said in the OP, consciousness is one of the things I have been thinking about. Just what is it? Is it purely a physical phenomonen related to our brains or is there something else to it? Definitely worth thinking about. What's confusing with consciousness is that if it's an illusion and reality is nothing but an illusion too (according to many theoretical astrophysicists now), then how can it be an illusion observing an illusion? Where is "reality" if everything that we are, and everything we exists within, is not real? Somewhere, somehow, there must be an anchor to a "me". If that "me" is emergent from the world, then the world is observing itself. I don't believe in a dualism that the "soul" is separate from nature, but it is beyond just particles and atomic reactions as an extension of them. And somewhere, that must be real in a real sense, or everything is just a dream without a dreamer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 Just to be clear, Overcame Faith quoted Positivist in post #29 both times, and not myself. Sorry. I have corrected post 29 to reflect that I was quoting Positivist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Positivist Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 I'm personally someone who has always lived comfortably in shades of grey, which IMO is probably one reason why my faith didn't survive. I guess I thought that if I had more cognitive/theological plasticity--i.e. I was more malleable in my beliefs and happy with uncertainty/gray--that my beliefs could withstand reality better. When I tried to "go gray", I lost my footing completely and ended up atheist. (Gawd, I'm such a fundy!) But clearly, you make a great point, Vigile: black/white or gray seems to have little to do with loss of faith. Only if you're starting to follow someone else and his or her opinion and views. Independence is what you are and should be. ...Just by the fact that you let yourself express your own ideas in contrast to others, you will evolve your own personal views. I'm still petrified of falling for something again. I admire where you guys are at! It gives me something to strive for. Then it seems to me that your black and white thinking served you well if it helped you escape from Christianity. After I left the religion, I purposefully embraced black and white thinking as my protection from being sucked back into that or another similar religion. It has only been with time that I have learned to loosen up a bit and not feel the need to protect myself from falling back into religion. You give me hope, that I can maybe (maybe) move from positivism to post-positivism. I'm just too scared to let go! Thank you for a great topic, OF. This is certainly an area of future growth for me and I appreciate your well-articulated thoughts on the topic! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 I'm still petrified of falling for something again. I admire where you guys are at! It gives me something to strive for. I can totally relate. Btw, I'm not like religious about this either. It's not something I try to reach or work for at all, it's just something that has been evolving naturally from studies of current science and spent a little contemplating about it. I'm not a meditation buff like some of the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted October 23, 2012 Moderator Share Posted October 23, 2012 Overcame Faith!! It's so good to see you back on the board!! I still remain open....that's why I love to follow along with all the gang that are practicing other forms of the spirituality's of life. I personally still like the 'string theory'! I think there could be something to this subject of matter to energy. I love reading about matter, energy, light, molecules, atoms, protons, neutrons, quarks, antiquarks and the Higgs boson theories. They are now seeing that present views of the nature of matter is very different since early 20th century. I love to read about the subatomic matter of the material world. The experts say that string theory is a good mathematical model for nature and the universe. I would still love to know what's at the very end of all this? I think it's about Carl Sagan and his 'stardust' theory. It's fun for me. I often wonder when we die, if the body turns does turn back into 'energy and light', and gets recirculated and reincarnates back into the universe again. Maybe that energy does come back into a new body?? I just love playing around with the idea!! I wouldn't mind coming back.... as much as I can get discouraged some days!! I still love the ole' earth!! When I see a logical, rational man, such as yourself, remaining a little 'open'...it makes me excited to learn even more. We've got nothing to lose by examining all the different theories and have fun learning at the same time ! This is why I keep wishing on the stars!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 Overcame Faith!! It's so good to see you back on the board!! I still remain open....that's why I love to follow along with all the gang that are practicing other forms of the spirituality's of life. I personally still like the 'string theory'! I think there could be something to this subject of matter to energy. I love reading about matter, energy, light, molecules, atoms, protons, neutrons, quarks, antiquarks and the Higgs boson theories. They are now seeing that present views of the nature of matter is very different since early 20th century. I love to read about the subatomic matter of the material world. The experts say that string theory is a good mathematical model for nature and the universe. I would still love to know what's at the very end of all this? I think it's about Carl Sagan and his 'stardust' theory. It's fun for me. I often wonder when we die, if the body turns does turn back into 'energy and light', and gets recirculated and reincarnates back into the universe again. Maybe that energy does come back into a new body?? I just love playing around with the idea!! I wouldn't mind coming back.... as much as I can get discouraged some days!! I still love the ole' earth!! When I see a logical, rational man, such as yourself, remaining a little 'open'...it makes me excited to learn even more. We've got nothing to lose by examining all the different theories and have fun learning at the same time ! This is why I keep wishing on the stars!! I think one of the most exciting aspects of life is that we do not know everthing and there are always new things to learn. Learning is what I truly love, and I know you love learning, too (as do, I think, our fellow exChristians on this site). I think it is a love of learning and having the courage to accept the truth, though the truth may be harsh at times, that is at the heart of most of our deconversions from Christianity. That, I think, is ultimately what we all have in common on ExC. Carl Sagan and "stardust" is something that excites me, too. Just the thought that we are all, on the physical level, born of some stars that existed billions of years ago is totally mind blowing. Knowing that makes it clear to me that we are not separate from the universe. Rather, we are all an integral part of the universe. So, when one uses the term "the universe", one is not just referring to the galaxies, stars, and planets, but to life as well. There is definitely an interconnectedness to it all. If we think of it that way, then, when one studies the human being, one is studying an aspect of the universe. It's mind boggling. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Carl Sagan and "stardust" is something that excites me, too. Just the thought that we are all, on the physical level, born of some stars that existed billions of years ago is totally mind blowing. Knowing that makes it clear to me that we are not separate from the universe. Rather, we are all an integral part of the universe. So, when one uses the term "the universe", one is not just referring to the galaxies, stars, and planets, but to life as well. There is definitely an interconnectedness to it all. If we think of it that way, then, when one studies the human being, one is studying an aspect of the universe. It's mind boggling. Amen. No joking, this is something that gives me chills and a sense of "spirituality". And to think that not only life arose from this stardust, but awareness, consciousness, intelligence, society, etc woke up from it too. And a world of atoms and particles and energies that are now inventing and changing the very construction of materials and such. It's just amazing. "We're just atoms," doesn't give the whole spectrum. We are atoms and more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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