Uncle Tom Atheists

[Guest wester]

Just got the attached message from a renowned and notorious atheist of the internets.

 

My question: is it possible, given the current political configuration in the USA, for a Republican or Tea Party party voter to be a genuine atheist, or are they perhaps only humoring themselves and are, in fact, of a different genus entirely?

 

Your thoughts appreciated.

[Adam5]

Hi Wester, I think you can be vote Republican and be an Atheist, Agnostic and/or Humanist. It must be a bit of a strange position to be though in the US as the Rupblican party is so in the grip of religiosity, esp the tea party people. Maybe its easier to support a right wing party outside of the US where religion is less of an issue. For example in the UK the leaders of the centre left and centre parties are Atheists, and the Prime Minister leader of the centre right party is a Christian in name only (like a lot of people).

[raoul]

I don't think the mindset is any different than what I found years ago during debates with one rather rabid right winger. We'd been going back and forth over 9/11 and how Bush simply dropped the ball, intentionally, in order to have a crisis in which he could project himself as a 'war time' leader. I was not saying nor even implying he or our gov. were complicit in the attacks. What I was saying, after almost a year of my own research, was that he and his cronies KNEW something was going to happen and did nothing to stop it. I'd posted extensive essays about it and wrote thousands of words concerning it.

 

Anyway, this right winger kept coming back with his own 'views' backed with nothing and it was driving me nuts. I then caught one of his comments to a fellow right winger in which he said he was gay and a proud member of the log cabin republicans. I went ballistic on him, screaming something about how the hell can you be gay and be part of one of the most anti-gay political parties we've ever seen in this country? He merely shrugged it off and claimed some nonsense about 'not agreeing with everything their platfom stands for' but still backing everything else. This was during the time when some shithole state in Dixie was trying to get some anti gay laws passed, again.

 

I don't know if this answers your question but it does serve as a parallel of a kind. Also, off topic - I had to stop following that other Under Obama welfare has become king thread because of the typical libertarian right wing bullshit being slung. I was afraid I might go ballistic and be banned by the moderator. But you latest comments about racism being rampart is RIGHT on the mark. I remember the night Obama won the election - I was so excited I couldn't sleep so I went internet browsing to see the various political crap being slung around.

 

I was shocked to find that almost immediately, within the first couple of hours, white supremist militia/religious groups sprung up like magic all over the place! I was born into a racist family where I was told all kinds of disgusting things about non-whites. But even as a kid I kind of suspected they were wrong about other people but couldn't speak up (came from a very abused life back then). Anyway, when I went into the army and lived among people of all races I KNEW they were nothing more than a bunch of bigots. Some of my army buddies, Black or Hispanic, were literally my family overseas. When I came back home I voiced my opinions, got crucified verbally, but shrugged it off because I knew I could never change their minds.

 

What you said is right - being white and knowing the 'code' whites use when talking about other races, it's fascinating in a dismaying way when folks like you speak about this continuing horrible situation only to be told you're playing the 'race' card.

[raoul]

Hi Wester, I think you can be vote Republican and be an Atheist, Agnostic and/or Humanist. It must be a bit of a strange position to be though in the US as the Rupblican party is so in the grip of religiosity, esp the tea party people. Maybe its easier to support a right wing party outside of the US where religion is less of an issue. For example in the UK the leaders of the centre left and centre parties are Atheists, and the Prime Minister leader of the centre right party is a Christian in name only (like a lot of people).

Hey Adam5, I basically said the same thing with more words but there's another element here I didn't think of. As you know the republicans are now the jesus party, based on numerous republican leaders' comments about religion. So I think Wester is approaching this from that angle as well. IE: how can an atheist support a party that despises atheism or at least pretends to hate it...

[Adam5]

IE: how can an atheist support a party that despises atheism or at least pretends to hate it...

 

hi Raoul, I think how we vote can be tribal. A lot of people just vote the way their parents did.

 

Also people can be swayed by particular policies. For example an Atheist may be liberal socially, but conservative economically. Or the other way round.

[Paine]

I'll take the bait.... ***why do I do this?***

 

I am a fiscal CONSERVATIVE who leans Libertarian on social issues, but I will always vote Republican or Tea Party (gag) because I simply have no other VIABLE home for my thoughts about economic issues. WIthout a strong economy, we ARE NOT EVEN A COUNTRY, so the rest of that social shit doesn't matter AT ALL. A strong monetary system has to come first before we can give out goodies to everyone else...duh.

 

Do the goofy Jesus rants form Christards like Glenn Beck make me crazy and embarrass me? You bet they do...but I hold my nose and vote with them the way my more Conservative black buddy Reggie held his nose in 2008 and voted with Democrats in spite of his ProLife values (but swears he is all in for Romney this time because Obama is an idiot on the economy---its about his gas tank this time...go figure..?)

 

And yes---while I may be only barely a year into this de-conversion, I am very much an atheist, though that word comes very hard for me considering most "never been Christian" Atheists have the reputation for being quite malevolent.

[raoul]

 

hi Raoul, I think how we vote can be tribal. A lot of people just vote the way their parents did.

 

Hey Adam5 - I do agree that millions of people vote the way you just described it (note the latest comment by the Ayn Rand worshipper who claims he/she will ALWAYS vote republican). However, how do you explain others like me who will either not vote or vote according to the best choice regardless of political affiliation? I've voted rep or dem or even split my voting at times.

[CDFree]

Amn't I glad religion and politics are kept separate in the UK.

[raoul]

Amn't I glad religion and politics are kept separate in the UK.

That's why I envy Europeans - they obviously know what many over here don't about the dangers of religious interference and have done things to stop that in its tracks.

[Vigile]

[Ravenstar]

US politics are crazy (well.. more so than some others.. politicians are all scumbags, worldwide)

 

I don't get that A. Lincoln was a Republican... has the party changed that much? He seemed like a fairly decent leader—not perfect, but who is? The infiltration and takeover of the Rep. party by the extreme right wing and the fundies has turned it into something it should never have become. For moderate Conservatives it must be frustrating and embarrassing.

 

I'm all for fiscal responsibility... balanced with social responsibility... but when you bring in the religion aspect it just gets really messed up. Isn't there some way to enforce the separation thing? It's constitutional, isn't it? I would think any person in office who promotes the religion thing in the course of their service would be in a serious conflict of interest. Legally, yet the Supreme Court does nothing.

(and war is really expensive, more so than preventative social programs... seriously, trillions?)

 

I watched a video on youtube last night about discrimination against atheists in the States... scary, and violent and very sad. Seems like we are the most hated and least trusted group.. even over teh gays! I don't get that... I guess rationality is anathema.

 

at this point I don't see an 'out of the closet' atheist getting any higher office in the US (maybe in California? Do you have any outspoken atheists in the Dems? I don't know). The radical christians have too much lobby power. What was it.. oh ya, just recently some senate dude said if women get pregnant through rape it was "god's will' or some such drivel. IMHO he should step down in disgrace. ridiculous.

[stryper]

Amn't I glad religion and politics are kept separate in the UK.

That's why I envy Europeans - they obviously know what many over here don't about the dangers of religious interference and have done things to stop that in its tracks.

 

Given the fact that they had centuries of warfare over Protestant vs. Catholic, it seems reasonable that this would be the result.

[MerryG]

I wouldn't vote for any of the bastards from any party. But wester, your FB friend sounds like an intolerable bigot.

[Stamps1962]

My late father in law served as GOP state chair back in the 1960's. He was a nominal Catholic but in reality was always an agnostic. He just didn't share that outside his family. My wife and I wonder how he'd feel about his party today, I think he'd be very unhappy.

[florduh]

I'll take the bait.... ***why do I do this?***

 

I am a fiscal CONSERVATIVE who leans Libertarian on social issues, but I will always vote Republican or Tea Party (gag) because I simply have no other VIABLE home for my thoughts about economic issues. WIthout a strong economy, we ARE NOT EVEN A COUNTRY, so the rest of that social shit doesn't matter AT ALL. A strong monetary system has to come first before we can give out goodies to everyone else...duh.

 

Do the goofy Jesus rants form Christards like Glenn Beck make me crazy and embarrass me? You bet they do...but I hold my nose and vote with them the way my more Conservative black buddy Reggie held his nose in 2008 and voted with Democrats in spite of his ProLife values (but swears he is all in for Romney this time because Obama is an idiot on the economy---its about his gas tank this time...go figure..?)

 

And yes---while I may be only barely a year into this de-conversion, I am very much an atheist, though that word comes very hard for me considering most "never been Christian" Atheists have the reputation for being quite malevolent.

I completely understand that position. Many people are single issue voters, and if you realize that a strong economy is the first fundamental step to everything else, you must try to make that happen regardless of the shit that is attached to it. What I don't get is the fact that most people focused on the economy automatically default to the Conservative/Right/Republican camp as if they have the corner on sound fiscal policy. Wasn't Clinton in office the last time we were solvent and actually had a surplus? Didn't Bush waste no time in wiping that out and begin to amass huge debt? I don't think Republicans do any better with money than anyone else, but their rhetoric is characterized by vague warm fuzzies for "business" (no, not YOUR small business) and middle class white men eat it up thinking they could be the next CEO of Exxon if only the Republicans were in charge.

 

Speaking of smoke and mirrors, of course the Liberals sell the dream of total equality between all men and women, which is equally unattainable but still gets votes.

[stryper]

US politics are crazy (well.. more so than some others.. politicians are all scumbags, worldwide)

 

I don't get that A. Lincoln was a Republican... has the party changed that much? He seemed like a fairly decent leader—not perfect, but who is? The infiltration and takeover of the Rep. party by the extreme right wing and the fundies has turned it into something it should never have become. For moderate Conservatives it must be frustrating and embarrassing.

 

I'm all for fiscal responsibility... balanced with social responsibility... but when you bring in the religion aspect it just gets really messed up. Isn't there some way to enforce the separation thing? It's constitutional, isn't it? I would think any person in office who promotes the religion thing in the course of their service would be in a serious conflict of interest. Legally, yet the Supreme Court does nothing.

(and war is really expensive, more so than preventative social programs... seriously, trillions?)

 

I watched a video on youtube last night about discrimination against atheists in the States... scary, and violent and very sad. Seems like we are the most hated and least trusted group.. even over teh gays! I don't get that... I guess rationality is anathema.

 

at this point I don't see an 'out of the closet' atheist getting any higher office in the US (maybe in California? Do you have any outspoken atheists in the Dems? I don't know). The radical christians have too much lobby power. What was it.. oh ya, just recently some senate dude said if women get pregnant through rape it was "god's will' or some such drivel. IMHO he should step down in disgrace. ridiculous.

 

Yes the party has changed that much.

 

After the Civil War it was Republicans who were all for educating and giving the former slaves the right to vote. It was the Democrats that set up the system of Jim Crow.

 

Fast forward 100 and you have Democrat George Wallace stating "segregation forever"(1963) with Democrat Lyndon Johnson passing the Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Act (1964). It was shortly after that, when the White voters in the south shifted to the GOP. While black voters became staunchly democrat. At least for a time.

 

In the 50's in the south you voted democrat. Now you vote GOP.

 

plus ça change plus c'est la même chose

[roadrunner]

I'll take the bait.... ***why do I do this?***

 

I am a fiscal CONSERVATIVE who leans Libertarian on social issues, but I will always vote Republican or Tea Party (gag) because I simply have no other VIABLE home for my thoughts about economic issues. WIthout a strong economy, we ARE NOT EVEN A COUNTRY, so the rest of that social shit doesn't matter AT ALL. A strong monetary system has to come first before we can give out goodies to everyone else...duh.

 

Do the goofy Jesus rants form Christards like Glenn Beck make me crazy and embarrass me? You bet they do...but I hold my nose and vote with them the way my more Conservative black buddy Reggie held his nose in 2008 and voted with Democrats in spite of his ProLife values (but swears he is all in for Romney this time because Obama is an idiot on the economy---its about his gas tank this time...go figure..?)

 

And yes---while I may be only barely a year into this de-conversion, I am very much an atheist, though that word comes very hard for me considering most "never been Christian" Atheists have the reputation for being quite malevolent.

 

Me too but I wont say I will "always" vote for republicans. Frankly this election will be the first time I dont take religion into the booth with me. Its important for me to make sure I vote for a candidate whose value system is one where social liberties are upheld. I think that a truly "free" country will eventually thrive economically but I still cant shake the mass of debt and spending that no one seems to care about. Its in my nature to think long term survival. What good is gay marriage when our dollars are worthless. Or what about the long-term effects of outlawing abortion (EDIT: Not abortion on "developed" kids. I think we all can agree that is morally reprehensible) on our population. Thats why this election I'm screwed. I am actually for gay marriage and a woman and her family making their own decisions (EDIT: If they wish to bring a child into this world) but I care about spending and there is no candidate where I can get the best of both. EDIT: Either way I dont want the government making these decisions for me and my family.

[Paine]

I'll take the bait.... ***why do I do this?***

 

I am a fiscal CONSERVATIVE who leans Libertarian on social issues, but I will always vote Republican or Tea Party (gag) because I simply have no other VIABLE home for my thoughts about economic issues. WIthout a strong economy, we ARE NOT EVEN A COUNTRY, so the rest of that social shit doesn't matter AT ALL. A strong monetary system has to come first before we can give out goodies to everyone else...duh.

 

Do the goofy Jesus rants form Christards like Glenn Beck make me crazy and embarrass me? You bet they do...but I hold my nose and vote with them the way my more Conservative black buddy Reggie held his nose in 2008 and voted with Democrats in spite of his ProLife values (but swears he is all in for Romney this time because Obama is an idiot on the economy---its about his gas tank this time...go figure..?)

 

And yes---while I may be only barely a year into this de-conversion, I am very much an atheist, though that word comes very hard for me considering most "never been Christian" Atheists have the reputation for being quite malevolent.

I completely understand that position. Many people are single issue voters, and if you realize that a strong economy is the first fundamental step to everything else, you must try to make that happen regardless of the shit that is attached to it. What I don't get is the fact that most people focused on the economy automatically default to the Conservative/Right/Republican camp as if they have the corner on sound fiscal policy. Wasn't Clinton in office the last time we were solvent and actually had a surplus? Didn't Bush waste no time in wiping that out and begin to amass huge debt? I don't think Republicans do any better with money than anyone else, but their rhetoric is characterized by vague warm fuzzies for "business" (no, not YOUR small business) and middle class white men eat it up thinking they could be the next CEO of Exxon if only the Republicans were in charge.

 

Speaking of smoke and mirrors, of course the Liberals sell the dream of total equality between all men and women, which is equally unattainable but still gets votes.

 

True. And thoughtfully considered.

 

But if one follows the Obama formula of blame the previous guy for three years into YOUR administration, then credit must flow in the same vein, right?

 

I am sure you can see where I'm going with this...

 

But the educated reply is that there are two main schools of Economic theory....John Maynard Keynes and Ludwig von Mises

 

Read both and then YOU DECIDE FOR YOURSELF which man's theories sound logical to you. Then dig a little bit about how well each theory has worked throughout history. That should tell you more about yourself and what your personal economic priorities are. And if you still think the warm fuzzy social issues are still primary to your vote, then fine.

 

But a little economic education opens eyes. Thats probably why they don't teach it very well in public school! LOL.

 

[raoul]

Amn't I glad religion and politics are kept separate in the UK.

That's why I envy Europeans - they obviously know what many over here don't about the dangers of religious interference and have done things to stop that in its tracks.

 

Given the fact that they had centuries of warfare over Protestant vs. Catholic, it seems reasonable that this would be the result.

That's probably one of the reasons but the primary one, at least per the guy who wrote 'The God Virus' was that after being subjected to two world wars in which millions of people were kiled the idea of a god became very remote for the majority of people in many of those countries. Both reasons, yours and his, along with probably quite few more led to their enightenment. We're still in the dark ages over here.

[Serendipity Rose]

I support middle of the road politics.

 

To me, religion is one of the main causes of poverty and the "entitlement" thinking for both the poor who don't think they can get out so they don't try and for the ultra-rich who seem to think they've worked harder than anyone else. Neither is true but having religion in government supports both of these ideologies. Therefore I cannot support any candidate who even remotely suggests that government and religion should work together OR that government should be reduced to the point that we are all fending for ourselves because the only recourse is for churches to pick up the altruistic care for the poor and that is unacceptable to me as someone who wants to see religion in our society reduced to a personal search for answers.

[Serendipity Rose]

But to answer the question, I have not been able to understand non-religious people who continue to support the party of the religious right whatsoever. It reminds me of my being a "Christian" for so many years. I focused on the good parts of Christianity in an effort to justify my parents belief because they were good people. It was only when they were no longer here and I had no other reason to justify those beliefs that I was able to completely remove myself from those ideas. Once I was gone it was so refreshing to be able to think freely! I wonder if the "religion of politics" works in our minds in a similar way.

[stryper]

habits die hard.

[Rek99]

I can echo another poster by saying that I am fiscally conservative, but very liberal on social issues. I have a hard time voting democratic because of the higher taxes and more spending. I would really like to see a flat tax with no deductions, but I know there are a lot more issues than just saying that.

 

I really do want gay marriage though, and a woman's right to choose, and no god in government in school/government agencies.... but right now, the economy is my biggest concern, and of the two people we have to choose from, I think the red guy will do the best job.

[KBB]

I don't like it when Christians say I can't be atheist and conservative, and likewise, I don't like it when other atheists say I can't be atheist and conservative. The two are not mutually exclusive. My desiring fiscal responsibility has nothing to do with my disbelief in deities.

[MerryG]

But to answer the question, I have not been able to understand non-religious people who continue to support the party of the religious right whatsoever.

 

There have certainly been a lot of religious right-wing Republican idiots in the news lately. And definitely those boobs are becoming a larger factor in the party. But I think it only looks like "the party of the religious right" because that's how the media tends to portray it. We hear everytime some moron blats something about "legitimate rape" or rape pregnancies being "god's will." We don't hear as much about other Republicans who just go about their ordinary legislative business.

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm not defending any politicians. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think they're all poltroons to say the least, no matter what letter they have after their names.

 

But to call Republicans "the party of the religious right" and therefore say nobody should ever vote for any Republican candidate is as erroneous as saying the Democrats are "the party of racial quotas" or "the party of Saul Alinsky radicals" or "the party of [fill in whatever left-wing issue somebody hates]" and therefore nobody should ever vote for any Democrat. Despicable as most politicians may be, they're still individuals with a variety of individual positions on the issues.