blackpudd1n Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 I have always been rather sceptical of the idea that atheist evangelists exist. Perhaps I was naive, knowing human nature and all, but it just seemed to me that the idea of an atheist being called an evangelist was a misnomer. I still don't accept a common assertion I hear that Richard Dawkins is an atheist evangelist, simply because in my experience, those who make such a claim have usually not read or watched any of his material. However, in my life offline, I have come to hear of an atheist evangelist, whom I will be meeting soon. He is the friend of the atheist I am seeing. Now, I myself have mixed feelings on the subject of atheists evangelising. The guy I'm seeing does not agree with it at all- even as a third generation atheist, he finds it insufferably annoying to be preached at. I myself am still clarifying my thoughts, and my current position is that I disagree with atheists proselytising. From the perspective of being an ex-christian, I do not believe that debate or preaching is the most effective way to kick-start thinking in a religious person. It would not have worked with me, and I would not have responded well to it. I believe that discussion and exposure to atheists, as friends, colleagues, and loved ones, works best. In which case, I fully support being open in my atheism, and open in my views. I fully support engaging in dialogue. I just do not see how preaching is the most effective method of getting someone to think, because I believe that the fundy mind would close off. So that is where I am currently at on the subject. I would love to hear your thoughts on atheists evangelising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 I find it distasteful, even though I do a bit of it on my fb page once in a while. There is so much more to life than god-belief or lack thereof and I think we should focus more on that stuff. Unless, of course, the crazy believers try to take away my rights, and then I get pissed. For the most part in my personal relations, I try to show respect for belief. I studied world religions in college and there is as much good as bad in all of them, some moreso than others. I think it just polite to show respect until someone does something that truly threatens my being and rights. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Pudd, don't pre-judge. He might not be what you imagine. Give him a chance, then decide if he's too pushy, or just likes to talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackpudd1n Posted November 13, 2012 Author Share Posted November 13, 2012 Pudd, don't pre-judge. He might not be what you imagine. Give him a chance, then decide if he's too pushy, or just likes to talk. Par, it's kind of hard for me to judge, as my mind is not made up on the subject as it is, and as you say, I have not met the guy as yet. When I do meet him, though, I would like to hear his position, and know my own sufficiently enough to discuss it with him. I'm more interested in the reaction forum members would have had to being preached at or openly challenged by an atheist when they were christians. My thoughts are that I would have closed my mind, and had my stereotypes further ingrained, not to mention my paranoia of atheists heightened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 I was an open-minded type of Christian that would not have been offended by a militant atheist. I would have tried to explain my point of view in response, but I truly did consider other perspectives when I was a Christian. It didnt cause me to get angry or defensive.... it made me pensive. That is why I deconverted so easily. (Is that anything like being a girl who "rapes so easy" ala that one congressman? ) In fact, I would have rather enjoyed speaking with them and wish I had encountered more of them before I got too deep.... but I think most Christians would have a visceral reaction, as evidenced by the responses I get when I post on fb about my lack of belief. I was rather unusual I suppose. Maybe I was never a True Believer. *shrug* I should say that is someone had come right out and made fun of Christianity in a rude way, I would have been put off and tried to change the subject (I didn't encounter any of that type as a Christian, probably because I was never really the type of Christian atheists like to rant about). I am speaking more about people who are open about their atheism and respectful when bringing it into a discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackpudd1n Posted November 13, 2012 Author Share Posted November 13, 2012 I was an open-minded type of Christian that would not have been offended by a militant atheist. I would have tried to explain my point of view in response, but I truly did consider other perspectives when I was a Christian. It didnt cause me to get angry or defensive.... it made me pensive. That is why I deconverted so easily. (Is that anything like being a girl who "rapes so easy" ala that one congressman? ) In fact, I would have rather enjoyed speaking with them and wish I had encountered more of them before I got too deep.... but I think most Christians would have a visceral reaction, as evidenced by the responses I get when I post on fb about my lack of belief. I was rather unusual I suppose. Maybe I was never a True Believer. *shrug* I should say that is someone had come right out and made fun of Christianity in a rude way, I would have been put off and tried to change the subject (I didn't encounter any of that type as a Christian, probably because I was never really the type of Christian atheists like to rant about). I am speaking more about people who are open about their atheism and respectful when bringing it into a discussion. Thanks for your perspective, Pandora. I was a dyed-in-the-wool fundamentalist, so I could only go by the type of christian I was. I guess it's why I wonder which way is more effective. I do have a rude atheist on my Facebook page, whom added me- I don't know him in real life, but on the whole I find him rather off-putting, even as an atheist myself. I see no harm in posting memes and images to my wall- it is my wall, after all. But I don't post statuses myself that are outright obnoxious. On the subject of being a True Christian/not being a True Christian- personally, I think that has more to do with how indoctrinated we each were, and how much freedom we had to think for ourselves, how much exposure we had to differing points of view. I'd say you just had more exposure, more freedom of thought than I did as a christian. I don't think it says anything about how deeply or not you believed when you were a believer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Define "evangelizing." I believe it originally meant to spread the "good news" (ie. the gospel) but now it just means to be a missionary of sorts. So what do you mean to "evangelize?" If someone shows up and speaks their mind on a given subject, and usually when this is taken poorly, this person has "evangelized" to the group. P1: "I believe in <gods>." P2: "I also believe in <gods>." P3: "I do not believe in <gods>." P1&P2: "Damn evangelist!" You could reverse this and it would be just as valid (a group of atheists and a single believer). So what does it take to be an "evangelist" nowadays? I claim not much. It's rather in the eye of the beholder much of the time (if not always). You're certainly not required to spread the "good news" (read: gospel). It comes from the (fairly common) complaint I see where people ask "Why do they always have to bring god into everything?" and the answer is that it is a way of evangelizing. If this speech/behavior is to be considered evangelizing then the flip-side from atheists should be as well. So the off-the-cuff remarks, the attributions of events and the like would all the "evangelizing" depending on who gets to decide. If I think that storm is caused by a god and you correct me to say it was caused by nature you may well have evangelized me. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackpudd1n Posted November 13, 2012 Author Share Posted November 13, 2012 Define "evangelizing." I believe it originally meant to spread the "good news" (ie. the gospel) but now it just means to be a missionary of sorts. So what do you mean to "evangelize?" If someone shows up and speaks their mind on a given subject, and usually when this is taken poorly, this person has "evangelized" to the group. P1: "I believe in <gods>." P2: "I also believe in <gods>." P3: "I do not believe in <gods>." P1&P2: "Damn evangelist!" You could reverse this and it would be just as valid (a group of atheists and a single believer). So what does it take to be an "evangelist" nowadays? I claim not much. It's rather in the eye of the beholder much of the time (if not always). You're certainly not required to spread the "good news" (read: gospel). It comes from the (fairly common) complaint I see where people ask "Why do they always have to bring god into everything?" and the answer is that it is a way of evangelizing. If this speech/behavior is to be considered evangelizing then the flip-side from atheists should be as well. So the off-the-cuff remarks, the attributions of events and the like would all the "evangelizing" depending on who gets to decide. If I think that storm is caused by a god and you correct me to say it was caused by nature you may well have evangelized me. mwc Well, personally, I hate the idea of any atheist being labelled "evangelistic". And I have to admit, I'm struggling myself to understand how the concept would work, simply because I don't see how anyone could be "convinced" to be an atheist. And yet a couple of nights ago, when we were having dinner with a mutual friend of both the guy I'm seeing and this apparent "atheist evangelist", the mutual friend stated that he had been "convinced" by this guy that atheism was the only logical conclusion. The mutual friend also agreed with the "atheist evangelist" assessment of the other guy. That being said, though, the mutual friend, who I'll just refer to as "B" from now on, admitted that he was never overly religious to begin with. As for the fundy at the firm, whom I do know, because he went to the last church I attended before losing my faith, and was the leader of the small group I attended, well, he is still very much a christian. So, I don't know. I must say, though, I'm very curious about this guy, and looking forward to meeting him. And their work christmas function should be interesting- it will be the first time I come face-to-face with anyone from that old church since I deconverted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted November 13, 2012 Super Moderator Share Posted November 13, 2012 People from every quarter try to make atheism more complicated than it is. Atheists have no message, cause, or "good news" to push upon the masses. Atheists simply have found no reason to believe that any gods exist. Some personalities feel the need to force their beliefs and opinions on others, and they may be pushing anything from religion to politics to nutrition and medical advice. Certain atheists also fall into this trap and can't rest until everyone understands and agrees with them on the subject of gods. My position is simply, "I personally find no reason to believe in any gods, but you're certainly welcome to believe anything you like." (Edited for speling misteak.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Well, personally, I hate the idea of any atheist being labelled "evangelistic". And I have to admit, I'm struggling myself to understand how the concept would work, simply because I don't see how anyone could be "convinced" to be an atheist. And yet a couple of nights ago, when we were having dinner with a mutual friend of both the guy I'm seeing and this apparent "atheist evangelist", the mutual friend stated that he had been "convinced" by this guy that atheism was the only logical conclusion. The mutual friend also agreed with the "atheist evangelist" assessment of the other guy. That being said, though, the mutual friend, who I'll just refer to as "B" from now on, admitted that he was never overly religious to begin with. As for the fundy at the firm, whom I do know, because he went to the last church I attended before losing my faith, and was the leader of the small group I attended, well, he is still very much a christian. So, I don't know. I must say, though, I'm very curious about this guy, and looking forward to meeting him. And their work christmas function should be interesting- it will be the first time I come face-to-face with anyone from that old church since I deconverted. I don't see a problem with the label "evangelistic" since, as I said, I'm pretty sure it's just a messenger of good news (although that's generally the gospel which is strange). Usually, this gets associated with the whole Great Commission and people running around barging into people's lives and annoying them to no end. But I think this topic is a bit evangelistic. It's the "good news" of atheism. There is none really but it tells of how we're not evil while not believing in god(s), which is what I tend to do in my atheistic evangelism. I tell of how I believe nothing and how that's accomplished in my daily life (I just don't believe...which astounds and amazes those who have heard this tale). But I don't have a Great Commission, so I don't go running about converting anyone. My non-existent savior/founder forgot to leave any such rules so I don't bother but I have piped up if the occasion called for it. I spread the "good news" as it were that I existed as did others like me and there was a choice to believing which was to not. But that's about it. I don't intrude per se but I don't sit silently forever passed-by and unnoticed by the world either. If I feel like it I speak up. I exist. To me, that's evangelism but not in the way of the Great Commission (to go out to specifically preach and convert). Hopefully, this makes some sense. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackpudd1n Posted November 13, 2012 Author Share Posted November 13, 2012 Well, personally, I hate the idea of any atheist being labelled "evangelistic". And I have to admit, I'm struggling myself to understand how the concept would work, simply because I don't see how anyone could be "convinced" to be an atheist. And yet a couple of nights ago, when we were having dinner with a mutual friend of both the guy I'm seeing and this apparent "atheist evangelist", the mutual friend stated that he had been "convinced" by this guy that atheism was the only logical conclusion. The mutual friend also agreed with the "atheist evangelist" assessment of the other guy. That being said, though, the mutual friend, who I'll just refer to as "B" from now on, admitted that he was never overly religious to begin with. As for the fundy at the firm, whom I do know, because he went to the last church I attended before losing my faith, and was the leader of the small group I attended, well, he is still very much a christian. So, I don't know. I must say, though, I'm very curious about this guy, and looking forward to meeting him. And their work christmas function should be interesting- it will be the first time I come face-to-face with anyone from that old church since I deconverted. I don't see a problem with the label "evangelistic" since, as I said, I'm pretty sure it's just a messenger of good news (although that's generally the gospel which is strange). Usually, this gets associated with the whole Great Commission and people running around barging into people's lives and annoying them to no end. But I think this topic is a bit evangelistic. It's the "good news" of atheism. There is none really but it tells of how we're not evil while not believing in god(s), which is what I tend to do in my atheistic evangelism. I tell of how I believe nothing and how that's accomplished in my daily life (I just don't believe...which astounds and amazes those who have heard this tale). But I don't have a Great Commission, so I don't go running about converting anyone. My non-existent savior/founder forgot to leave any such rules so I don't bother but I have piped up if the occasion called for it. I spread the "good news" as it were that I existed as did others like me and there was a choice to believing which was to not. But that's about it. I don't intrude per se but I don't sit silently forever passed-by and unnoticed by the world either. If I feel like it I speak up. I exist. To me, that's evangelism but not in the way of the Great Commission (to go out to specifically preach and convert). Hopefully, this makes some sense. mwc Yes, that makes sense. Except for the bit about this topic being a bit evangelistic- I'm asking questions, not making assertions. Unless you were joking there, and my literal mind missed the joke? How about we try this on for size: these guys have a different understanding of the term "evangelist", being that they all came from relatively non-religious backgrounds and were born, raised, and live in a largely secular society? Do you think it's possible that I'm so confused because I have a different understanding of "evangelist", being that I come from a fundamentalist background? Do you think I'm onto something here? Because if it's just that there are two differing understandings of the same term going on, then I'm going to be really glad I had this discussion with you all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackpudd1n Posted November 13, 2012 Author Share Posted November 13, 2012 People from every quarter try to make atheism more complicated than it is. Atheists have no message, cause, or "good news" to push upon the masses. Atheists simply have found no reason to believe that any gods exist. Some personalities feel the need to force their beliefs and opinions on others, and they may be pushing anything from religion to politics to nutrition and medical advice. Certain atheists also fall into this trap and can't rest until everyone understands and agrees with them on the subject of gods. My position is simply, "I personally find no reason to believe in any gods, but you're certainly welcome to believe anything you like." (Edited for speling misteak.) Like I said to mwc, florduh, I'm beginning to think that maybe I as an ex-c and these guys from relatively non-religious backgrounds have different understandings of the term "evangelist". I'm beginning to think that that is possibly where the confusion may lie. Like, maybe the term has a stronger meaning for me than it does for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Certain software engineers at Microsoft are called "evangelists". They're basically spokespeople for new technologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentLoner Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 I've been accused of being a "militant atheist" for simply saying that I am an atheist out loud rather than hiding it. Some people are sensitive. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Madalyn Murray O'Hair would qualify as evangelical. People spat out her name instead of saying it. She scared me. I was 6. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JadedAtheist Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 People will be prone to making others think and believe as they do. They may even justify their actions as being as pure as snow because they're saving people from wasted lives. Anyone who is too outspoken about any topic will probably not be in my presence for long. I've had enough of people blind-sighted by their particular fancies, I rather hang around normal people who don't lose their shit whenever someone disagrees with their beliefs, or finds it necessary to talk about them incessantly. Yes, I am an atheist and unashamed of it, but I do have other interests other than atheism and I would rather not talk about it constantly. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roadrunner Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 When was the last time an atheist knocked on your door with the good news that there is no god. Or invited you to a basketball league where you can be rocked to sleep and then presented with the good news that there is no god. Or stood on a corner with a sign saying "down on luck. Anything will help. There is no god". Or erected an atheist temple on every corner. Or asked for 10%of your income to be in the club. Or sent missionaries to other countries to make sure that everybody knows that there is no god. I could go on all day. We've gotten to the point where anything other than biting your tongue to the religious is evangelizing. I admit that billboards are controversial but IMHO religious people need to be countered when they ask for it. Not unsolicited insults about religion, just a response when the opportunity is presented. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackpudd1n Posted November 14, 2012 Author Share Posted November 14, 2012 When was the last time an atheist knocked on your door with the good news that there is no god. Or invited you to a basketball league where you can be rocked to sleep and then presented with the good news that there is no god. Or stood on a corner with a sign saying "down on luck. Anything will help. There is no god". Or erected an atheist temple on every corner. Or asked for 10%of your income to be in the club. Or sent missionaries to other countries to make sure that everybody knows that there is no god. I could go on all day. We've gotten to the point where anything other than biting your tongue to the religious is evangelizing. I admit that billboards are controversial but IMHO religious people need to be countered when they ask for it. Not unsolicited insults about religion, just a response when the opportunity is presented. That is very true, RR. I droped in on the guy I've been seeing for about an hour tonight, and we agreed that we are probably working with different understandings of the concept of evangelising. I'll know more after dinner tomorrow night- I'm meeting this friend of his then On the subject of the billboards, simply because you raised them- I actually support them. More because I see it as being an effective method of getting the message out to anyone who may have deconverted that they are not alone, and that there is support for them. I think the religious can get over them- like SL said, some people are just sensitive. Anyway, I guess I'll have more to say on the subject tomorrow night Got to hit the books now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted November 14, 2012 Super Moderator Share Posted November 14, 2012 The most important thing is that atheists know there are others who think as they do. To spread the gospel of "there is no god" would be obnoxious and unwelcome, but do at least come out of the closet for chrissakes! We need to know you're there. I'd wager there are many more atheists than anyone ever suspected. Just think, if atheists were found to be a sizable portion of the population, politicians would court us and discrimination would decline! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roadrunner Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 The most important thing is that atheists know there are others who think as they do. ........ Thats what drove me to say something about not believing. I have given my wife the luxury of waiting till she's comfortable with it before I go into the spotlight. I think if most people know an atheist it will at least break the stereotype. I remember thinking like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblueep Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 I say that "good news" is "good news". If I talk about my disbelief, it's only to help someone out of their cognitive dissonance. I have no reservations about that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator buffettphan Posted November 14, 2012 Super Moderator Share Posted November 14, 2012 I just love Jesus 'n Mo. This cartoon that appeared on Jerry Coyne's Why Evolution Is True website today seems to fit in perfectly right about now. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackpudd1n Posted November 15, 2012 Author Share Posted November 15, 2012 Eh, he isn't militant. He's absolutely adorable. Mind you, I came home with a copy of God Is Not Great lol. He was rather fascinated by my former fundamentalism. I don't think he's ever actually met a dyed-in-the-wool fundamentalist that lost their faith. He just has a really big heart, and wants to help people out of religion because he views it as so harmful. At one point he asked me what the best way to help someone away from religion was. I told him that from my point of view, being their friend was the first step. I told him about Philippians 2:12, and that he may want to point out that verse to someone, seeing as there are over 30,000 different sects of christianity alone, many with conflicting doctrines. I mean, the doctrine I grew up in asserted that speaking in tongues was "of the devil". Yet I ended up entrenched in pentecostalism, in which speaking in tongues was a gift of the holy spirit. But I had a really great night . I also introduced him to Evid3nc3's youtube channel, and told him about how his deconversion story was the catalyst for my own loss of faith. And I agree with florduh and others who have stated the same- I believe in being open about my atheism, too. It's not such an issue here, though. But if I lived in America, I would be open about it there, too. Because I believe you all when you say how hard it is for you- my heart breaks every time I hear of someone fearing for their marriage and children, all because they lost their faith. And can I just say, damn, it's good to be back I love all of you, my darling friends And no, I'm not manic- I just had a four hour sex marathon, my vag feels great, and I love everyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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