Legion Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 We don't need to venture to far off places, or speak with supposedly knowledgeable people in order to apprehend the truths which inher in the universe. They are with us everywhere, all the time. I was just outside looking into the night sky at the stars shining from their unfathomable distances. But I was still aware of the trees on the gound with me and the various human artifacts scattered about... the road, the houses, the street lights. It occurred to me then that this is a ubiquitous experience among the various intelligences in the universe. Sure, the details themselves vary, but the quality is the same. It's the quality of being a sentient living being surrounded by the cosmos and our own artifacts. I have no personal stake in the survival of humanity. I've had no children of my own whom I hope will inherit a good Earth, and perhaps also someday other places in the solar system, and on to other star systems. But for whatever unknown reason, I still harbor the hope. But I don't believe we yet deserve this. I've spoken before of how all organisms are equivalent. If this was not the case, then we'd have no basis to gather them togather into a single group and say, "These are alive." Simultaneously however, it should also be said that all organisms are not the same. No bacterium, no rose bush, no dog, no cat has the ability to imagine entirely novel possibilities and manifest these ideas in physical form. Humans are unique among terrestrial life in this ability. But this not said for the purposes of praising humanity and our own cognitive and creative abilities. I find it likely that just as cognition evolved to enhance somatic survival, there may yet be organizations above the mind. Perhaps the rare individuals who demonstrate wisdom are the precursors of such a development, because from my experience it is clear that intelligence and wisdom are not the same thing. In any case, I'm concerned. No matter how I try to look at events today, I can't escape the impression that humanity now collectively stands at a fork in the road. But we're not going to make the decision collectively; we'll make it as individuals. I hope those who possess wisdom prevail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raoul Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 Sigh......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaddy Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 O'DOYLE RULES!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 Yup, I think you are dead on - we are at a crossroads. But... reaching for the stars is what propels us to better ourselves. The only thing we know about sentience is that humans are self-aware and have the capacity to exchange information with each other about the experience of self, and our perceptions. We can not definitively say that other life forms don't have some sort of capacity for this... there's no way to measure that. They could have but be beyond our ability to interpret - sheesh, we have a hard enough time communicating with our own species, and I suggest some of our species are far from truly sentient. (a bit of snark there) Case in point are dolphins.. highly intelligent, obviously self-aware.. and communicative. But we have NO IDEA at what level they are sentient... we can't because we don't speak their language, nor do we have the ability to enter their worldview (oceanic life, even their experience of spatial dimension, sound etc.. is very different than ours). Maybe they have their own forms of art, culture, philosophy, whatever, that we don't or can't recognize. I take Adams position with the dolphins.. "So long, and thanks for all the fish" lol Deserve is a value judgment. Do bacteria deserve to thrive and spread? What about the ones harmful to human life? How are we different, qualitatively? I think a more honest way to look at it is.. will we be able to modify our nature (adapt) to be able to survive and spread? We will have to because otherwise we will probably kill ourselves off before moving out to the stars. I hope we can move and evolve and adapt beyond what we are now, and I truly hope we do move out to the stars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted December 4, 2012 Super Moderator Share Posted December 4, 2012 In the universe, there is no "deserving." A variety of life has evolved and it struggles for survival. Sometimes the snake eats the cute (to us) little baby chick. The chick doesn't "deserve" to be eaten in such a way, but the snake doesn't "deserve" to have this cumbersome method as his only survival strategy. As humans, we have the ability to over-think reality, place our current values upon it, and dream that we can be the one species that changes everything for, what is in our opinion, the better. Such arrogance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryper Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 legion, get to a therapist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 Humans never deserved to become humans either or take over Earth. No animal, plant, bacteria, virus, or fungus ever deserved anything. We live. We experience. We consume and produce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thackerie Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 The bad thing about Florduh and Ouroborus being moderaters is I can't click "like" when they make sensible comments, as they invariably do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted December 4, 2012 Author Share Posted December 4, 2012 I take Adams position with the dolphins.. "So long, and thanks for all the fish" lol Deserve is a value judgment. Do bacteria deserve to thrive and spread? I'll grant you that Ravenstar. Perhaps I could have more appropriately said unqualified, incompetent, or incapable. I hope we can move and evolve and adapt beyond what we are now, and I truly hope we do move out to the stars. Yes, so do I. I was speaking with a woman in my local area who I met online in a philosophy forum. She spoke briefly about those who believe we should return to less advanced technology in order to have sustainability. I had the feeling that she herself believed this should be done. She seems to be unaware that this has never happened during the course of terrestrial evolution. Yes, there have been mass extinction events. But in each of these events new ecosystems arose to fill the vaccuum, and the inheriting organisms generally had a higher metabolic throughput and higher rates of fecundity. It is a central pillar of many contemporary notions of evolution that the process has no entailments associated with it. The survivors are simply lucky and there is no long term preference. I think this is a mistaken notion. legion, get to a therapist. I don't see much point in it. The therapist before last could barely surpress her contempt for me. And the last one said, "I have faith in you. I believe you can do it." Okay fine doc. What exactly do you believe I can do? This isn't about me, and there's little to nothing I can do. We are experiencing a systemic failure. The West is commiting suicide, and the rest of the world is happy to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankStranger Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 One my Clone's favorite quotes: "Deserve's got nothing to do with it" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryper Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 legion, get to a therapist. I don't see much point in it. The therapist before last could barely surpress her contempt for me. And the last one said, "I have faith in you. I believe you can do it." Okay fine doc. What exactly do you believe I can do? This isn't about me, and there's little to nothing I can do. We are experiencing a systemic failure. The West is commiting suicide, and the rest of the world is happy to see it. The Industrial Age in which the West was born is passing. The Debt based economic system is dying. This is not suicide. This is change. You can either go with the change and work toward the future you want, or you can be the rock in the stream and force everything to work around you. The rest of the world has good reason to be happy about it. It means a leveling of the playing field. If anything our own success and profit seeking, cause it. The outsourcing so decried by many has pulled other places out of the grinding poverty they were in. We got profit. They got a higher standard of living. Not a US standard but certainly higher then what was before. But now we are not the masters of the universe. We are becoming what we should have been all along. One among many equals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 Bonobos deserved to rule this planet, not chimpanzees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted December 4, 2012 Super Moderator Share Posted December 4, 2012 Bonobos deserved to rule this planet, not chimpanzees. Yes. Put me in the bonobo camp as well. Now this thread is finally going somewhere! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted December 4, 2012 Author Share Posted December 4, 2012 I don't believe the West was born in the industrial age. I think it was born with Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans. I also don't believe the need for industry has passed, just as I don't believe the need for agriculture has passed. The rest of the world has no history or expectation of civilian freedom. They expect tyranny, and they get it. Sure, when we surrendered economic sovereignty and the outsourcing began, the living standards of China and India for instance rose. As JFK said, "A rising tide lifts all ships." But China is mercilessly ruled, and India maintains a caste system to this very day. Who do you believe profitted most among these people? But I do agree with you in an important sense. The West must abandon these silly dreams of empire. But please let us preserve the best of our culture... the arts, the sciences, the maths... the creativity and ingenuity which bubbles up from a free people and never could from slaves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roadrunner Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 I agree with the OP. I am not at all spiritual but the closest I come is looking up into a dark sky scatted with stars wondering whats out there and being in awe of it all. We still get off from material possessions and power. No regard for the species as a whole. I didnt feel that way until the pale blue dot sank in about a year or so ago. "Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that in glory and triumph they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot.................In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 "There are certain things men must do to remain men." Captain James T. Kirk to Dr. Richard Daystrom. . . . . . . . ..such as? Going to the stars - even if we don't deserve them! BAA 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryper Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 "There are certain things men must do to remain men." Captain James T. Kirk to Dr. Richard Daystrom. . . . . . . . ..such as? Going to the stars - even if we don't deserve them! BAA Given that it's James Kirk saying it that implies a few other "manly" pursuits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted December 5, 2012 Author Share Posted December 5, 2012 I agree with the OP. I am not at all spiritual but the closest I come is looking up into a dark sky scatted with stars wondering whats out there and being in awe of it all. We still get off from material possessions and power. No regard for the species as a whole. I didnt feel that way until the pale blue dot sank in about a year or so ago. "Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that in glory and triumph they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot.................In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves." I really enjoyed this RR. Yeah, if you saw a pack of wild dogs in a snarling, vicious, blood soaked battle over a bone, would you step in there to quell the conflict? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babylonian Dream Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Legion, not everyone sees the value in what you post. I still do though, and like what you post. I think you made a good point. We tend to see ourselves as a species in a priveledged position, that we personally are entitled to have complete dominion over anything and everything. In order for a animal to have a right to his territory, enough humans have to agree, otherwise a man wanting a farm might mean that animal has to give up his home. We're simply an arrogant species. Some people might say you're looking at this too hard, but people say that about everything in philosophy, depending on who you talk to. We are able to do what we do, not because we've got some kind of divine (or other) right to it (like we act like), but because things fell into place in the way that we did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roadrunner Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 I do agree that we must make an effort to pursue the cosmos but I also acknowledge that society is in no ways prepared to accept a non priveledged position. Christians have already declared that any life form we find is satanic. Try approaching anything for the first time with the idea that it is the very thing that make life miserable. Regardless we need a plan b. And it starts with exploring even if it kills us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galien Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 I will have a star thanks. A purple one 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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