Denyoz Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 There is no greater love than to lay down one's life for one's friends. John 15:13 A lot of what is in the Bible is bullshit, but some parts still ring true after deconversion. I'm now questioning this one. I need ex-christian opinions. I this true to you? Is it bullshit? In either case, could you explain your point of view? What is noble about letting yourself die for someone else? And if this is not the greatest love of all, then what is? Personally, I'm inclined to think that this is total bullshit and was put in the Bible in reference to Jesus dying on the cross, in order to prove that he loved us. But I am open to having my views challenged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaddy Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 I think a greater love is to provide the means to education, healthcare, and general welfare. AFAIK, Jesus didn't die in place of someone else anyway. Well, he didn't even exist if you ask me. But you know what I mean. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 “The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other guy die for his.” ― George S. Patton Jr. "Death honors no one." - Caine (Kung Fu) I think staying alive to help your friends would be better than sacrificing yourself, in most cases. The dramatic self-sacrifice moments in life are few. I miraculously made it a whole 30 years without cracking open a bible, so don't worry about salvaging much from that source. :-) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babylonian Dream Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 There is no greater love than to live on for your friend, and try to do the good he wanted to have done. Would that friend do it for you? You never know. So why die for him? That being said, I have saved a friends life before. He acted stupididly and I let him know it when he became conscious. You don't mix oxycordone with alcohol, you just don't! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryper Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 There are times when that maybe the case. However, my gut reaction is this all part of the save the world meme in the bible. I liken it to the "I am my brother's keeper". So not only do I have to keep him from straying, I have to sacrifice myself as well. It is BS like this that led to legends like the Children's Crusade. Historical or not, the legend of it has been held up as a symbol of virtuous self sacrifice. Basically, when it comes to line like that in the bible, I feel convinced that god only sees worth in you in your death. The rest of the time you are just scum. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentLoner Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Meh, I always liked that verse. Even the bible can have a nice verse or two in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3DollarBill Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 There is no greater love than to lay down one's life for one's friends. John 15:13 Totally true. And absolutely in no way unique to the jesus or the bible. A Tale of Two Cities The Song of Roland The Matrix Gran Torino Armageddon Return of the Jedi Literature and film are quite simply full of examples of heroic self-sacrifice...and of course the best are the ones that aren't made up... go wikipedia Juan Santamaria. This is just another example of xtianity making a lame attempt to co-opt a concept so fundamental that it is part of what makes us human...the ability to love so deeply that we would lay down our lives for others. The bible doesn't exalt sacrificial love because the bible is in any way special, but because when someone makes the ultimate sacrifice it is worth talking about. It's worth remembering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted December 6, 2012 Moderator Share Posted December 6, 2012 It can be for love or for some other higher purpose. It is certainly the ultimate sacrifice. As far as friends go, I've been pretty disappointed in most of mine lately, especially the fundy ones. Would I die for them? Ask me another time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denyoz Posted December 7, 2012 Author Share Posted December 7, 2012 Sacrifice: a surrender of something of value as a means of gaining something more desirable. So the purpose behind surrendering something valuable (like life) is to gain something more desirable. To me, the very definition of the word sacrifice contradicts itself. From the outside, it looks like the person laying down his life is being self-denying, but deep down, his intention is to gain something more, so isn't he being selfish after all? In the case of Jesus (whether or not the story is true), by sacrificing his miserable earthly life, he was gaining eternal life in heaven sitting at the right hand of the fucking Father! Any selfish asshole would do this. Me first. Hell, I'm willing to lay down my life for much less than that. And they say that there is no greater love than this? I'm still totally confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babylonian Dream Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 See the problem is, selflessness never existed to begin with. Usually those who cry "selfish!" want something and are selfish. Everyone is the center of his or her own universe. As long as that selfishness isn't toxic nor making you a piece of shit, its not a bad thing to be selfish. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted December 7, 2012 Moderator Share Posted December 7, 2012 You two might relate to Derrida's concept of the perfect gift, which is a gift which costs the giver nothing. I never really related to the concept, since I haven't gotten past the requirement for sacrifice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted December 7, 2012 Moderator Share Posted December 7, 2012 See the problem is, selflessness never existed to begin with. Usually those who cry "selfish!" want something and are selfish. Everyone is the center of his or her own universe. As long as that selfishness isn't toxic nor making you a piece of shit, its not a bad thing to be selfish. Babs....You nailed this one for me. I've been reading this thread for the last couple of days and didn't know what to say. I think most of us were born and brought up to 'Sacrifice' in order to be 'loved' and gain approval. You sacrifice for me and I'll sacrifice for you and then we'll love each other. We were taught right from Sunday school that jesus 'sacrificed' for us and we should do the same. Made us all crazy, guilty and co-dependent. I am definitely re-defining what I classify as 'sefish' today. I have special people in my life that I would probably lay my life down for. I'd 'go' to let them live. Hope I don't ever have to make that decision!! I didn't pass the 'Job test' very good and I may not pass the 'jesus test of sacrifice' either. Hope I don't ever have to face that!! I guess one would have to be right there in the horrible situation? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falemon Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 It's a romantic thought demonstrating incredible patience and discipline as an act of love. In isolation it's just an idea, but think of the film, I, Robot, where Will Smith's character lamented being saved over a child he would have happily died for because he evaluated the situation, and because he had already lived a life he felt it better that the child be given a chance to live. Some would argue that heroism is foolish and violates human survival, but to surrender yourself so that perhaps a person who you value higher than yourself, perhaps that is a great sign of love, if one was ever in that situation. If I had to choose between my life and the life of my loved ones, that would be an excellent way to judge how I feel about the world and so on. Would you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denyoz Posted December 8, 2012 Author Share Posted December 8, 2012 How would YOU (any of you) feel if someone would lay down his life for you. "Oh I'm so happy this guy died so I can live longer than him!" No. I would feel embarrassed, especially if I had to meet the guy's family. We all heard of people who survived airplane crashes who suffer from survivor guilt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted December 8, 2012 Moderator Share Posted December 8, 2012 How would YOU (any of you) feel if someone would lay down his life for you. "Oh I'm so happy this guy died so I can live longer than him!" No. I would feel embarrassed, especially if I had to meet the guy's family. We all heard of people who survived airplane crashes who suffer from survivor guilt. I understand totally what you are saying here Deny. I do hope that nobody ever has to 'lay their life down' for me. When my sister died, I suffered terrible survival guilt and could barely laugh for about five years. I did laugh, but it was forced for everyone else's sake....like her children. I would have much prefered to die and let her live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentLoner Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 How would YOU (any of you) feel if someone would lay down his life for you. "Oh I'm so happy this guy died so I can live longer than him!" No. I would feel embarrassed, especially if I had to meet the guy's family. We all heard of people who survived airplane crashes who suffer from survivor guilt. The verse doesn't say anything about reveling in joy about someone laying their life down for you, it merely acknowledges that for that person to do so it means they cared for or loved you a great deal and what that means. Think of the man in the red bandanna on 9/11 - http://en.wikipedia....he_Red_Bandanna. His family has found significant comfort in meeting with the people he saved. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denyoz Posted December 8, 2012 Author Share Posted December 8, 2012 The verse doesn't say anything about reveling in joy about someone laying their life down for you, it merely acknowledges that for that person to do so it means they cared for or loved you a great deal and what that means. Think of the man in the red bandanna on 9/11 - http://en.wikipedia....he_Red_Bandanna. His family has found significant comfort in meeting with the people he saved. Thank you SilentLoner. This is certainly something to think about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babylonian Dream Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 See the problem is, selflessness never existed to begin with. Usually those who cry "selfish!" want something and are selfish. Everyone is the center of his or her own universe. As long as that selfishness isn't toxic nor making you a piece of shit, its not a bad thing to be selfish. Babs....You nailed this one for me. I've been reading this thread for the last couple of days and didn't know what to say. I think most of us were born and brought up to 'Sacrifice' in order to be 'loved' and gain approval. You sacrifice for me and I'll sacrifice for you and then we'll love each other. We were taught right from Sunday school that jesus 'sacrificed' for us and we should do the same. Made us all crazy, guilty and co-dependent. Yes! And I've cast those chains off and am running from the toxic sludge trying to suck me back in. I am definitely re-defining what I classify as 'sefish' today. I have special people in my life that I would probably lay my life down for. I'd 'go' to let them live. Hope I don't ever have to make that decision!! I didn't pass the 'Job test' very good and I may not pass the 'jesus test of sacrifice' either. Hope I don't ever have to face that!! I guess one would have to be right there in the horrible situation? According to my dreams, as it has happened in them, I'd be the one to sacrifice myself to save them. Or at least try to. I hope I never have to make that decision either. If you live somehow, there are so many ways you may live to regret it. Though I'd argue that even this isn't truly selfless. You want that person to live, so you make them live, its still got an element of selfishness in it, to the point where you're debating with fate even. Selfishness just isn't the same word to me now that it was a year ago even. It's a romantic thought demonstrating incredible patience and discipline as an act of love. In isolation it's just an idea, but think of the film, I, Robot, where Will Smith's character lamented being saved over a child he would have happily died for because he evaluated the situation, and because he had already lived a life he felt it better that the child be given a chance to live. Some would argue that heroism is foolish and violates human survival, but to surrender yourself so that perhaps a person who you value higher than yourself, perhaps that is a great sign of love, if one was ever in that situation. If I had to choose between my life and the life of my loved ones, that would be an excellent way to judge how I feel about the world and so on. Would you? It's by no means a bad thing to do, it is heroic. It really doesn't violate human survival though. You've just traded his life for yours by saving his life. It takes a good heartedsoul to do it. How would YOU (any of you) feel if someone would lay down his life for you. "Oh I'm so happy this guy died so I can live longer than him!" No. I would feel embarrassed, especially if I had to meet the guy's family. We all heard of people who survived airplane crashes who suffer from survivor guilt. I haven't been in that specific situation. What I will say though, is I really wouldn't want anyone to die to save me. I still sometimes feel guilty that I left my younger brother to live with my mother all alone, yet I realize, he didn't want to move in with me when I offered. And that's something alot lighter than this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 I think you're right that the sentence has a reference to Jesus' death on the cross, Denyoz. The NT isn't unique in showing this sentiment. It's already in the older Greek account of Damon and Pythias, who were friends willing to die for each other. The tyrant Dionysius of Syracuse was so impressed that he asked to be enrolled in their company of friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denyoz Posted December 8, 2012 Author Share Posted December 8, 2012 The verse doesn't say anything about reveling in joy about someone laying their life down for you, it merely acknowledges that for that person to do so it means they cared for or loved you a great deal and what that means. Think of the man in the red bandanna on 9/11 - http://en.wikipedia....he_Red_Bandanna. His family has found significant comfort in meeting with the people he saved. I clicked on the link and read about Welles Crowther's acts of heroism. I cannot argue that what he did were acts of great love. His death, however, was accidental. No one knew, at that time, that the towers were going to collapse. And it would be fair to say that he intended to live through this. What if he would have ran out the building and survived at the very last minute. Would that be "lesser love"? Does the fact that he died really shows greater love? The Bible quote is clear, it states that there is no greater love than dying while loving. A better quote would be: "There is no greater love than to risk one's life for one's friends." No need to die. The dying at the end only makes the story more dramatic and sellable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denyoz Posted December 8, 2012 Author Share Posted December 8, 2012 I think you're right that the sentence has a reference to Jesus' death on the cross, Denyoz. Yes, the phrase taken into context is referring to Jesus' death, and also to the ritual of killing animals to erase sins (Jesus being the lamb of god being slaughtered). It's like throwing innocent people into the mouth of volcanoes to appease the gods. It's stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denyoz Posted December 8, 2012 Author Share Posted December 8, 2012 Literature and film are quite simply full of examples of heroic self-sacrifice...and of course the best are the ones that aren't made up... go wikipedia Juan Santamaria. Ok, I did that. Interesting... I'm starting to see a pattern here. Almost all of the super heroes (including Jesus) are male, single with no kids. They are willing to give their lives because, maybe, they feel that they don't have one. They want to give value to their lives. Since they don't have children, they "give life" by laying down their own lives. Which is, I guess, an honourable thing to do. But would you say that these guys are more loving than those who spend their lives feeding, protecting, and educating their kids? How can love be measured? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 Good point about the single guy thing, Denyoz. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galien Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 See the problem is, selflessness never existed to begin with. Usually those who cry "selfish!" want something and are selfish. Everyone is the center of his or her own universe. As long as that selfishness isn't toxic nor making you a piece of shit, its not a bad thing to be selfish. So explain to me again how you get to make that claim for everyone in the world? How would you know if anyone is selfless or not? Not everyone lives the way described above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentLoner Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 The verse doesn't say anything about reveling in joy about someone laying their life down for you, it merely acknowledges that for that person to do so it means they cared for or loved you a great deal and what that means. Think of the man in the red bandanna on 9/11 - http://en.wikipedia....he_Red_Bandanna. His family has found significant comfort in meeting with the people he saved. I clicked on the link and read about Welles Crowther's acts of heroism. I cannot argue that what he did were acts of great love. His death, however, was accidental. No one knew, at that time, that the towers were going to collapse. And it would be fair to say that he intended to live through this. What if he would have ran out the building and survived at the very last minute. Would that be "lesser love"? Does the fact that he died really shows greater love? The Bible quote is clear, it states that there is no greater love than dying while loving. A better quote would be: "There is no greater love than to risk one's life for one's friends." No need to die. The dying at the end only makes the story more dramatic and sellable. I meant to address your comment about the families of someone who does a sacrifice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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