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Goodbye Jesus

The Next Apology?


Joshpantera

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I was thinking about a type of apology Christians may start leaning towards due to the devastation being laid to Jesus' historicity. We have the mythicists negating just about everything and liberal scholarship negating all of the supernaturalism leaving behind insignificant tid bits painting a picture of a failed doomsday prophet, cynic sage, and other less than God incarnate conclusions. Conservatives are slowly getting boxed out.

 

I wonder if any one has come from the angle that it was God's plan all along, since before the dawn of creation, to send himself as Jesus to the womb of a young girl from a very obscure and unmentioned place on the map on purpose for specific reasons?

 

And, further, that God made sure that no contemporary mention was every made of Jesus and his miracles because the whole "end times" scenario depends on salvation by grace through faith, and that faith will be the great deciding factor in the final judgment. The scant historicity being an intentional sorting method to separate the weeds from the wheat. And giving the devil one last argument to make for the "end times" scenario, the argument that Jesus never existed at all, which, was allowed to exist as an argument by God's own choice by purposely leaving no contemporary mention and scant and problematic non-contemporary mention of Jesus.

 

And then the second coming takes place all of a sudden without warning like a thief in the night and bam, there's Jesus up in the clouds on high where every eye can see him, bringing the whole plan of salvation since before the dawn of creation to conclusion. The faithful that didn't need to try and use scholarship or anything outside of scripture to bolster their faith are then translated from among the living while the remainder humanity is left behind 'gnashing teeth.' lol

 

I was LMAO thinking of this potential apology last night. But it could come down to something like this judging by the way things are headed. Sort of a last ditch effort to keep conservative Christianity and the fundies afloat in a time of great, great reason for doubt...

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I've thought about that before. Kinda makes sense. But it just makes the determining factor regarding your place in eternity so arbitrary and stupid.

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A literal reading of the bible tends to breed this train of thinking; it is really the logical conclusion from what's written, assuming it is the literal word of god. I had a phase where I believed on those lines - I was a batshit crazy fundy. Nothing could sway me, all opposition and differing beliefs only convinced more of its validity. Therein lies the problem, it is a self-supporting argument. God calls his chosen ones and blinds the rest of humanity, damming them to hell. Logic and reason go out the window as does genuine love and compassion. The belief that 'God made the universe so he, in his perfect love and wisdom, can do as he chooses and we should praise him for it' is damn dangerous. Should he choose to make 'vessels of wrath' (ie us non christians) to display his glory to the chosen ones then that must be a 'good' thing as god is good...

 

Ohhh, I shrink in shame I used to believe this crap. The way it makes you judge other people is awful. You certainly have a point Joshpantera as I am quite certain these Christians see the increasing evidence against anything close to the biblical accounts of Jesus being based on fact as a work of the devil to deceive the elect (as Jesus 'prophesied') in these 'end times'. Fundies like this have no other corner in which to run to. It will most likely only make them more militant. Hopefully as the evidence continues to mount and a few generations pass this belief system will begin to lose its hold on humanity.

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I had a phase where I believed on those lines - I was a batshit crazy fundy.

lol

 

Me too! I tried channeling that former train of thought in order to come up with the example apology. I'm seeing something in the way of rejecting the whole historical debate altogether because they could claim that even attempting to argue that Josephus, or Tacitus, or some non-Biblical source proves it is a step away from pure faith in scripture, and in that sense a very well played trick of the Devil to sway faith in a subtle way that most people don't realize. If people start thinking that they need something more than scripture then they're on the slippery slope to apostate. They could reject Biblical archaeology, NT scholarship, and basically everything that keeps turning up flaccid results for proving the Bible. That tricky Satan having set up the whole search to prove the Bible knowing that it will only fail and bring more doubt and essentially more souls to his side. Revelation is tipped in favor of the minority being saved and majority dammed. That presents a situation where most people, including most Christians, won't make it, less a minority of the select few.

 

I've actually shot back @ apologists who are rabidly trying to prove historicity, "where's your faith? Does your faith in scripture rest on secular historical facts in order prove scripture? If so, then you seem to be of little faith when all is said and done."

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They are already doing this... they get crazier and crazier and less grounded in reality as their fairytale falls apart around them. I suspect that the serious fundies will go even farther... and become isolationists, though their numbers will dwindle.

 

Now... interestingly, the liberal christians are moving towards an eastern view of deism...and I would think ultimately pantheism— when the facts are against them they just change the concept of their deity.. moving the goalposts. Things like non-denominational churches and Unitarianism are on the rise amongst christians, as well as things like christian witches, new age christians, christian yoga... (how many of you have heard them mix karmic concepts, metaphysics and christianity, lol). Mainstream christians have a more and more watered down version of faith all the time—that IMHO doesn't really resemble christianity much at all. Their god is more just an supernatural emotional crutch, or description of the things we don't yet understand than a real creator/savior deity.

 

So it seems there is a widening gap amongst christians... literal extremists on one hand and mainstream feel good pseudo-christians on the other.

 

I think Rev. Phelps is the future of the first group... pure nasty Calvinism.

 

Satan is convenient, isn't he? If things don't make sense blame Satan (weird because the word 'satan' means accuser, or adversary - it's a role, not a title) I always wondered why he and Jesus are both the morning star? hmmmmm..... I wonder if they could be the same entity? The whole plan not being for us, but for him.... penance anyone? just a stray thought.

 

and just HOW do angels have sex with people (and offspring)? I thought their 'supernatural' beings were not in this physical reality?

 

And where did god hide the garden? Satellites haven't picked it up yet that I know of. Where did it go?

 

So many questions

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 I suspect that the serious fundies will go even farther... and become isolationists, though their numbers will dwindle.

I think you're right. That's what these arguments are essentially doing too, corralling them into isolation where only the most credulous of the credulous minds remain while all others tend to jump ship and get branded apostate by the die hards. 

Now... interestingly, the liberal christians are moving towards an eastern view of deism...and I would think ultimately pantheism— when the facts are against them they just change the concept of their deity.. moving the goalposts.

BAA posted some interesting dialogue about that sort of Panentheism coming from Christian quarters as they grapple with the possibility of expanding cosmology and multiverse scenarios. 

 If things don't make sense blame Satan (weird because the word 'satan' means accuser, or adversary - it's a role, not a title) I always wondered why he and Jesus are both the morning star? hmmmmm.

The interesting thing about that dips into astro-mythology or astro-theology. Apparently both the Planet Venus and the Sun were called "morning star" depending on the context.

 

The story of the fall of Lucifer does seem like a straight up allegory about the planet Venus (light bearer) shinning bright just before sunrise and getting a little full of itself until the sun rises and blowns it into insignificance. Have you heard Price on this one? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJCxcez5U0M

 

Then in Revelation Jesus is the bright morning star which seems addressed to the sun, fitting in with the rest of the strong solar allegory context. If most of this mystical astral subject matter was meant for priest to priest understanding, then I assume that they'd recognize the allegories from one to another and look at the context to pick up on the meaning. Then later on by the time of modern fundies the meanings are so obscure they have no chance in hell of ever figuring out what the original writers might have been saying because they reject astrological symbolism and allegory outright and therefore have no way of figuring out the old priestly language of the ancient astronomers. So they just go for a literal interpretation not knowing what else to make of it...

 

And where did god hide the garden? Satellites haven't picked it up yet that I know of. Where did it go?

 

I was led to believe as a child that the Garden of Eden was taken up to heaven after the fall of man. I don't even know what method they were using to come up with that apology but I clearly remember hearing that as a reason for why the Garden is never found. The tree of life couldn't be left on earth so it was taken up with the whole garden before the flood ever occurred. And also I was told that there are endless other worlds out there all of which had to go through the same trial with the snake in their own gardens, but the earth was the first to fail and let sin enter a planet.

 

So there's a sense of God, all the angels, and all of the other planets with life out there watching the wages of sin unfold until a certain point where everyone watching will know for certain that God is justified and FAIR in wiping it out for good. That's used to apologize for the question of why God allows suffering to continue, or why he hasn't yet sent the return of Jesus yet. God can't have any one thinking that he didn't give Satan and sin a fair chance by just wiping sin out right away. The other worlds and angels might think that God's unfair or unjust. So sin is allowed to run it's natural course until the planet is nearly self destroyed by it, then, on a day and hour known only by the Father, he'll step in and send the fire cleaning, lake of burning sulfur, toss the Devil in, and start over again. After that, if anyone sins ever again he can just wipe it out right away without being accused of being unjust or unfair and so sin will never again be allowed arise throughout the remainder of eternity...

 

What a God dam mind f@#ck, I know... 

 

It's a shame that children in the 20th and 21st centuries have still been subject to this kind of blatant bull shit. But at least it's dying out on it's own accord...

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"I wonder if any one has come from the angle that it was God's plan all along, since before the dawn of creation, to send himself as Jesus to the womb of a young girl from a very obscure and unmentioned place on the map on purpose for specific reasons?"

 

Actually, I think the Bible answers those questions pretty well.  

 

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Joshpantera

Wow! besides the sarcasm, you sound just like one of my professors. He said the other day that even Christ didn't want people to know about him until he ascended, and he did tell people not to tell people about the miracle he gave them. So he disappeared so that his story could be told to everyone!?!?

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The NT claims that Jesus fame reached far and wide, so even if some one claims that Jesus' life was kinda hush, hush, the picture given in scripture is that he was well known. So that would tend to contradict the apology.

"These "great crowds" and "multitudes," along with Jesus's fame, are repeatedly referred to in the gospels, including at the following: Mt 4:23-25, 5:1, 8:1, 8:18, 9:8, 9:31, 9:33, 9:36, 11:7, 12:15, 13:2, 14:1, 14:13, 14:22, 15:30, 19:2, 21:9, 26:55; 


Mk 1:28, 10:1; Lk 4:14, 4:37, 5:15, 14:25, etc."

Unless they shot back that he was famed far and wide as the Bible says but God stopped the hand of contemporary writers in order to set the stage for the end times when it would boil down to the question of whether Jesus really existed or not, or if he was just a mundane failed prophet or cynic sage like every other Jesus of that description. Both arguments would be a two fold method for Satan to pull as many away from Jesus as possible no matter which of the two arguments from modern scholarship people choose to fancy as there own. And the tricky third position of trying to use historical evidence to prove Jesus historicity and divinity would be the ultimate trap of Satan, the trap of limiting peoples faith by seeking historical justification.

 

The fundies of the world ought to get together and consider hiring me to take over their apologetics from now on. lol

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Thanks for sharing that... I did not know about the goddess of the dawn, I knew what Lucifer meant but I didn't know it was Greek. I need to read more about the Canaanite pantheon. I know Yahweh was a war god, son of El Elyon - way back when. (J documents? Don't remember)

 

A huge amount of ancient religion (including the bible) is astrological, it makes sense... any Magi, or priests from that time period most probably studied astrology (part of the 'mysteries') I also wonder how much influence Ahkenaten and his monotheistic reign had on the Hebrews.

 

The polytheism of the ancient Hebrews is so obvious once you begin to actually study it... I knew the concept of a 'good god' and an 'evil' god' was from Zoroastrianism, but I wasn't sure how they meshed that.

 

Funny.. about the serpent... Serpent gods were common in the ancient world. Symbolizing reincarnation, renewal and WISDOM. It makes sense that it would be the animal to offer knowledge. (I also am reminded of the Minoan Snake Goddess/Priestesses) But the Hebrews were really good at erasing most mention of the feminine divine (?).

 

The Garden.. hmmm... well, that tale is not Biblically supported... but I've heard it before... in C.S. Lewis' Perelandra series. Did he make it up? Or did he write his series to expound on it? The Bible says Eden is guarded by a Cherubim with a flaming sword. Did I miss some scripture?

 

WOW.. so out of the entire universe.. and the heavenly host (except Satan - who doesn't really exist and his demons) we are the only black sheep of the family?  We are that incorrigible brat, that juvenile delinquent, that parents point out to theirs as an example of how not to turn out? We are SO bad that the entire universe is watching us?

 

 

Stalkers... :P

 

So, we get to suffer in order to vindicate an omnipotent being? (what's wrong with this concept? Other than the pathological reverse narcissism of those who believe this) Reminds me of an original Star Trek episode, where the 'god' is really a spoiled recalcitrant child of very advanced beings. Trelain.

 

 

 

Talk about a cosmic guilt trip

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I always wondered why there are so few mentions of Jesus in secular literature. That was a time in history where people write a lot and it was really good stuff. Great posts, especially the one which lists the "masses." eek.gif

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Josh, I think the fundy argument that you sketch in your OP is along the lines of their argument against the TOE when they say that God created the earth with built-in age, built-in fossils, etc.  Stuff like this can't be falsified. There would be ways to spin the seeming conflict between scriptural statements about the spreading news about Jesus and the absence of non-biblical references to him.

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Josh, I think the fundy argument that you sketch in your OP is along the lines of their argument against the TOE when they say that God created the earth with built-in age, built-in fossils, etc.  Stuff like this can't be falsified. There would be ways to spin the seeming conflict between scriptural statements about the spreading news about Jesus and the absence of non-biblical references to him.

Built in fossils?!!! yelrotflmao.gif My god, that is as stupid as their saying that God created the stars just to twinkle and make man happy. No other reason. Good god. 

 

The other point......that would be   a grand example of an appeal to ignorance, eh? 

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Josh, I think the fundy argument that you sketch in your OP is along the lines of their argument against the TOE when they say that God created the earth with built-in age, built-in fossils, etc.  Stuff like this can't be falsified. There would be ways to spin the seeming conflict between scriptural statements about the spreading news about Jesus and the absence of non-biblical references to him.

You're right.

 

That's one of the most bloody aweful apologies for YEC. And it does seems to point at God creating the illusion of an old earth whereby allowing Satan a footing to claim to the earth is old when it's really young - and deceiving the whole of the secular sciences in the process. Only those who have faith in the young earth would prevail while those falling for the illusion, that God himself allowed to cull the herd of the unfaithful as it were, would be doomed for trusting their better judgement and reason.

 

That runs very close to what I was laying out about the Jesus myth and it's historicity.

 

That narrows it down to only the very most credulous from among the credulous masses.

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I think if fundies relied on such apologetics they'd lose even more ground.  I think the more insidious stuff is what they put out with a veneer of scholarship.  Christians who are worried that maybe the "secularists" are right, but who either aren't trained well enough or aren't brave enough or aren't energetic enough to dig for themselves, will settle for seemingly scholarly apologetics and feel confirmed in their assumptions for years, decades.  Books like Evidence that Demands a Verdict or Who Moved the Stone or The New Testament Documents, Are They Reliable? are really weak, but they can seem authoritative to people who want confirmation of beliefs that are very important to their lives as they've set those lives up.

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Yeah, when interpreting mythological symbolism historically they tend to want to cling on to something, anything, that might give the impression of real concrete history. And so their faith is based on the validity of psuedo-scientific claims.

 

That reminds me of a big deal one year @ a camp meeting for the Florida Conference of SDA's. We had some archaeologist from the fold who was chasing after Noah's Ark and wrote a book with reports of having found it! I was younger and don't remember much of the detail other than the skeleton of a large boat was uncovered in that part of the world and they we doing slide shows while the archaeologist lectured about it, "praise Jesus!"

 

I thought to myself, "this is huge! Noah's Ark has finally been found and they have the pictures to prove it."

 

But as time went on there wasn't anything about it in the news. How could that be? The biggest news to ever come from archaeology and all of the news papers and TV are completely silent. That's when I began to suspect that the tricky devil must be keeping it from the headlines. Eventually I began to wonder if they actually did find Noah's Ark? And of course, as always, it was a complete flop with no basis in reality. That was very influential in my skepticism of church claims.

 

And then I began to notice authority figures like the school pastor telling huge and obvious tall tales on one hand, and on the other hand preaching the Bible. This idiot stood up in front of about 500 kids at a youth meeting and told us about catching a bull shark on the gulf coast while wading off the beach and then trying to ride it like a bull on it's back once he got the shark close to shore. Then he claimed that the shark took off with him on it's back and bucked him off in deeper water. After that it got even more interesting. He had his eyes open under water and saw the bull shark charging back around at him and, of course, an angel of the lord appeared out of nowhere and came between him and the shark and it stopped dead in it's tracks. I'm listing to this bullshit about a bull shark and thinking about how strangely similar this tall tale is to the story of Daniel in the Lion's den. But he didn't stop there, he went on to spin another tale about one afternoon during a heavy rain storm he prayed that Jesus would make it stop so he and his daughter could get across campus. It wasn't stopping so he decided to talk a leap of faith and step out into the rain anyways. And lo and behold, a void just big enough to exclude he and his daughter from the rain followed them as they walked by faith across campus completely surrounded by down pours with no need for an umbrella. So obviously this guy was in fantasy land believing his own crap, or he was intentionally dishonest thinking the end might justify the means.

 

The incredulous will leave and the credulous will stay behind...

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