Geezer Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 I’ve known one of my co-workers for many years. We were both devout fundamentalist at one time, but even then we didn’t see eye to eye on a number of theological issues. He is a staunch believer in predestination and even as a fundamentalist I wasn’t. Anyway, he is aware that I am no longer a believer. He has engaged me on a couple of occasions to “discuss” my sudden reversal. These encounters never end well. A couple of days ago he came into my office under the pretense of asking me a question. His question was a theological one and that lead to a discussion that quickly escalated to a heated exchange. His original question involved the book of Acts. I didn’t answer his question. I simply asked him who wrote the book of Acts. His answer, of course, was Luke the companion of Paul. I took the opportunity to educate him that Luke, the companion of Paul, nor anyone else named Luke wrote Acts or the Gospel according to Luke. I referenced numerous authors and their works which confirmed that Acts is a fictional account of the history of the church that evolved from oral traditions just as the synoptic gospels had and that no one knew who wrote any of the New Testament except for possibly six of Paul’s epistles. At that point he absolutely lost it. His face went from red to purple. He came across my desk and got in my face screaming, “Why do you hate God!” over and over. I remained silent until he had finished venting. When he finished and sat back down I confirmed that I didn’t hate God, because it would be impossible to hate something that doesn’t exist. His eyes got wide and he said, “I don’t believe you just said that.” He got up and as he was leaving he hissed, “Enjoy hell…..cause that’s where you’re going!” All in all it was an educational experience. I have learned it is not a good idea to discuss religion with religious people. It never ends well and the discussion almost immediately becomes circular. I realized I’ve been allowing this guy to engage me because I just enjoy yanking his chain, but this last encounter convinced me that I need to stop that. I don’t want the guy stroking out on me in my office.
BDPApostate Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 Sounds like he is the one with the hate problem... Did he call you arrogant or angry yet...that's always in there somewhere I try not to even discuss this with the fundy's in my life right now.
miekko Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 The argument that it's impossible to hate something that doesn't exist is a fallacy, just so you know. 1
BDPApostate Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 The argument that it's impossible to hate something that doesn't exist is a fallacy, just so you know. Where is the fallacy? I can see saying that you might hate the idea of god, or the effect the belief has on people and their actions. That is the tangible effect someone may be angry with or hate, but if you do not accept that god exists, how can you hate god?
miekko Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 The argument that it's impossible to hate something that doesn't exist is a fallacy, just so you know. Where is the fallacy? I can see saying that you might hate the idea of god, or the effect the belief has on people and their actions. That is the tangible effect someone may be angry with or hate, but if you do not accept that god exists, how can you hate god? Where does any definition of 'hate' stipulate that the object thereof is a real thing? Hate is really a thing that happens in our neural network - it's a configuration of states in some complex way. Do you think those configurations bother to check whether the thing they pertain to is a thing that exists?
miekko Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 The argument that it's impossible to hate something that doesn't exist is a fallacy, just so you know. Where is the fallacy? I can see saying that you might hate the idea of god, or the effect the belief has on people and their actions. That is the tangible effect someone may be angry with or hate, but if you do not accept that god exists, how can you hate god? Where does any definition of 'hate' stipulate that the object thereof is a real thing? Hate is really a thing that happens in our neural network - it's a configuration of states in some complex way. Do you think those configurations bother to check whether the thing they pertain to is a thing that exists? And as an extra question, if we have two exactly identical feelings for some things, only one of which exists, does only one of those feelings qualify as hate? That makes classifying the emotions happening in the brain an exercise of looking everywhere else but in the brain.
BDPApostate Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 I guess what I am saying is that someones feelings about god, are not really about god if they do not think god is real. Their feelings are about the effect the idea of god has on them/society etc... If there are no effects, or other tangible aspects of an idea, there is nothing to hate. The idea of God has tons of tangible effects on the world, any one of which may illicit feelings from a non-believer, but it is the effects of the idea that illicit the feelings IMO, not the idea. No one Hates pink unicorns, or is accused of hating them. No one makes groups trying to disprove them, or debunk them, because the pink unicorn idea has no real effect on most peoples lives. Thus no real hateful feelings. Maybe this is just semantics, but have no feelings about god at all. I have feelings, (strong ones too), about the effect that god belief has had in my life. 1
Geezer Posted December 14, 2012 Author Posted December 14, 2012 The argument that it's impossible to hate something that doesn't exist is a fallacy, just so you know. Thank you for your thoughts Miekko. The intent of my original post was to provide yet another example that Christian beliefs rest on a foundation of emotion, myths, & legends that are supported and maintained by indoctrination and peer pressure as evidenced by my co-workers refusal to even consider any evidence that would challenge his established beliefs. Whether or not it is possible to hate something that is nonexistence is a separate topic, IMO, for another discussion.
Sybaris Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 Did he call you arrogant or angry yet...that's always in there somewhere:Doh: and pride! If you don't believe then you have too much pride.
miekko Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 I do agree the "why are you hating God"-rhetoric is silly and non-productive, but I don't think it per se rests on impossible assumptions. However, I guess it reflects some assumptions he has about God - and I think this also kind of ties into a rather clever trick in Christian thought: by equating non-belief with hate of God, being friends with non-Christians (and thus possibly being influenced by them) is made even more unattractive to Christians. However, I don't think it's helpful to answer dumb claims and accusations with fallacious arguments. It just makes it even more difficult to get anywhere, both get even more likely to dig deeper trenches in the battlefield. What you ultimately want to do is make it appear as though you aren't digging any trenches, in hopes that he'll realize there's nothing to be afraid of.
raoul Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 The argument that it's impossible to hate something that doesn't exist is a fallacy, just so you know. Perhaps in your mind it is but the statement is logically sound in my and others' view.
raoul Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 The argument that it's impossible to hate something that doesn't exist is a fallacy, just so you know. Thank you for your thoughts Miekko. The intent of my original post was to provide yet another example that Christian beliefs rest on a foundation of emotion, myths, & legends that are supported and maintained by indoctrination and peer pressure as evidenced by my co-workers refusal to even consider any evidence that would challenge his established beliefs. Whether or not it is possible to hate something that is nonexistence is a separate topic, IMO, for another discussion. Your statement was correct and your tactful behavior with the person is something I could only hope to have (which I don't at times with them). His behavior was probably due to the fact that subconsiciously, he knew you were correct. Conciously however, he reacted the way he did because of the brainwashing they go through. I know because I behaved similar although not as radically as he did with you. When I debated atheists, years ago, and their logical/rational arguments seemed to pile up on me I would have to literally flee from the websites I participated in because, after all, they were merely being led by the devil whereas I, on the other hand, was totally correct in my thinking and beliefs - or so I thought.
miekko Posted December 15, 2012 Posted December 15, 2012 The argument that it's impossible to hate something that doesn't exist is a fallacy, just so you know. Perhaps in your mind it is but the statement is logically sound in my and others' view. Please point out where my reasoning goes wrong!
mymistake Posted December 15, 2012 Posted December 15, 2012 At that point he absolutely lost it. His face went from red to purple. He came across my desk and got in my face screaming, “Why do you hate God!” over and over. I remained silent until he had finished venting. When he finished and sat back down I confirmed that I didn’t hate God, because it would be impossible to hate something that doesn’t exist. His eyes got wide and he said, “I don’t believe you just said that.” He got up and as he was leaving he hissed, “Enjoy hell…..cause that’s where you’re going!” All in all it was an educational experience. I have learned it is not a good idea to discuss religion with religious people. It never ends well and the discussion almost immediately becomes circular. I realized I’ve been allowing this guy to engage me because I just enjoy yanking his chain, but this last encounter convinced me that I need to stop that. I don’t want the guy stroking out on me in my office. I do hope you avoid any more religious converstations with him especially at work. If he tries it again I strongly recomend that you tell him "not at work". I would give that one some space. Now why do fundies act like this? I found Darkmatter2525 has an interesting answer:
Llwellyn Posted December 15, 2012 Posted December 15, 2012 Next time, film the exchange with a hidden camera and put it on YouTube !!! I would have loved to watch it. You could have labeled it: "When Christians explode!" If Christians tell me that Yahweh exists, then why not believe them that he exists? There are lots of people who I believe exist, even though I have never met them and have never seen a photo. I believe my friend's sister Sarah exists, but I have never met her and never seen her. If I met Sarah, I would probably love her and hate her at the same time. I more or less love and hate everybody -- by degrees. So, if i met Yahweh, I would probably love and hate him at the same time. 1
RankStranger Posted December 15, 2012 Posted December 15, 2012 The argument that it's impossible to hate something that doesn't exist is a fallacy, just so you know. Perhaps in your mind it is but the statement is logically sound in my and others' view. Please point out where my reasoning goes wrong! Who cares? If it's that important to you, why not start a thread about it?
raoul Posted December 15, 2012 Posted December 15, 2012 At that point he absolutely lost it. His face went from red to purple. He came across my desk and got in my face screaming, “Why do you hate God!” over and over. I remained silent until he had finished venting. When he finished and sat back down I confirmed that I didn’t hate God, because it would be impossible to hate something that doesn’t exist. His eyes got wide and he said, “I don’t believe you just said that.” He got up and as he was leaving he hissed, “Enjoy hell…..cause that’s where you’re going!” All in all it was an educational experience. I have learned it is not a good idea to discuss religion with religious people. It never ends well and the discussion almost immediately becomes circular. I realized I’ve been allowing this guy to engage me because I just enjoy yanking his chain, but this last encounter convinced me that I need to stop that. I don’t want the guy stroking out on me in my office. I do hope you avoid any more religious converstations with him especially at work. If he tries it again I strongly recomend that you tell him "not at work". I would give that one some space. Now why do fundies act like this? I found Darkmatter2525 has an interesting answer: I went over there (darkmatter) and WOW - been watching the vids for the past hour or so. The guy really knows how to present an argument. The only thing I could disagree with is his criticism of the Kalam argument because he left out the key subset of premises which actually support the argument. But over all, incredibly adept with his logic. 1
flockoff Posted December 15, 2012 Posted December 15, 2012 Next time, film the exchange with a hidden camera and put it on YouTube !!! I would have loved to watch it. You could have labeled it: "When Christians explode!" I would pay money and make a bag of popcorn to see video of half the stories that get posted here. I disagree with BDPApostate that a fictitious being has to have tangible effects on the world or else you can't hate it. I have quite seriously hated Bald Bull, Jar Jar Binks, and the sheriff from First Blood. OTOH those characters did have an effect on what I wanted to happen in their fictional worlds, so I guess my point is that the emotions elicited by them can always be substantial enough to include hate. 1
RachelSkates Posted December 16, 2012 Posted December 16, 2012 OMG!!! He treated you with utter contempt. He wanted you to be saved, not for your good, but to make him feel that he was right, that he was not deluded, that he could stop than nagging feeling in his chest which grips him at night when he knows it is not true. AND YOU FOILED HIM! You used logic which ripped his safety net away and you know what? You did not even approach him, he approached YOU for a good dose of his own torture. God, this is unbelievable. Hope you are OK and do not feel jarred. These things leave me feeling drained.
miekko Posted December 16, 2012 Posted December 16, 2012 He didn't fucking use logic, learn what logic is.
mymistake Posted December 16, 2012 Posted December 16, 2012 He . . . logic is. Come on man. Is that necessary? 1
nptphotos Posted December 16, 2012 Posted December 16, 2012 Geezer, Could you fill us in as to your workplace? Is it a large company or small family owned one? I can not imagine that taking place where I work because if that happened to anyone in my company, we would be in HR’s office in a heartbeat. As a matter of fact they let go a guy who was proselytizing to anything with ears and he turned his department into a hostile work area. If it’s not work related you have the right to say “stop, don’t want to hear it or discuss it”.
raoul Posted December 16, 2012 Posted December 16, 2012 He . . . logic is. Come on man. Is that necessary? He's probably hostile because he isn't getting any 'press' regarding his non-sage comment about Geezer committing a fallacy which, of course, he did not. Amazing how some people allow their ego to lead them by the nose.
raoul Posted December 16, 2012 Posted December 16, 2012 Geezer, Could you fill us in as to your workplace? Is it a large company or small family owned one? I can not imagine that taking place where I work because if that happened to anyone in my company, we would be in HR’s office in a heartbeat. As a matter of fact they let go a guy who was proselytizing to anything with ears and he turned his department into a hostile work area. If it’s not work related you have the right to say “stop, don’t want to hear it or discuss it”. And I'll bet you dollars to donuts (whoever the hell made that goofy phrase up) that the fired xtian skipped happily back to his church and exclaimed how he was persecuted for his faith. LOL
Geezer Posted December 16, 2012 Author Posted December 16, 2012 Geezer, Could you fill us in as to your workplace? I'd rather not. I have known this individual for many years. This honestly was a friendly conversation that became too personal for him and then it became emotional. We're still friends and we have both decided religion isn't something we should discuss in the future.
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