Connecticut Shooting

[Akheia]

Aw, thanks Sarahlee That was really sweet of you!

 

Interesting statistics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country'>Guns per capita by country. Obviously we're #1 there (FUCK YEAH MURKA). Note how many countries on that list are war-torn or otherwise considered very violent. But then notice how many are places like Switzerland. Or Sweden. Or Canada. Being a country that lets people have guns doesn't necessarily predicate gun violence (though holy shit we have a LOT of guns compared to the 2nd on that list).

 

Further: Of the massacres that have occurred lately, none were averted by another citizen with a gun. The cops killed the Portland mall shooter; a cop killed the guy who opened fire in the hospital in Alabama the other day; the CT kid I think killed himself. Arming more citizens doesn't seem like the panacea the NRA would like us to think it is. I'm not sure how wild most parents would be about the idea that a teacher has a gun stored in his desk drawer, loaded and ready to rock should a shooter appear, but me, speaking as a non-parent, I'm not at all thrilled with the idea of a gun anywhere near my kid on the person of someone not extensively and specially trained how to handle one properly (ie, military person, police officer).

 

And: plenty of countries have largely secular schools and governments and have managed not to slaughter themselves wholesale. Canada might officially be cool with religion in schools, but unofficially it seems to be largely secular. Japan and the Scandinavian countries seem pretty damn secular too. Etc. Religion in schools does not in any way seem like it either predicts or prevents violence.

 

So gosh, what does? How about being a society with next to no safety nets for the obviously troubled (as this latest kid clearly was), and no method for identifying them and removing them from the rest of society? How about being a culture that glorifies violence in all its many forms and is happy to dehumanize the Other? How about being a culture that deifies and worships at the Cult of Gun Ownership but doesn't teach the discipline and essential humanity needed to use them right?

 

That's a fuckload harder to fix than the sound bite of "no more guns!" Which is why people gravitate to the latter and not any of the actual stuff that's wrong that's brought us to this impasse.

[LivingLife]

Growing up in the 50s and 60s, most of the world were oblivious of the veiled threat of nuclear war. While US kids (boomers) were doing nuke "safety" drills, the rest of the world had fire drills at schools; at least this side of the pond.

 

It is my opinion that religion and politics have been strange bedfellows keeping the US populace in a perpetual state of fear. The biggest recovery for the US out of the last depression was the ability to mass produce armaments that has become and still is a lucrative industry; one that can only sustain itself IF there are continued conflicts. How much of world instability is indirectly caused by the US through covert means?

 

The UK seems to be little different except that there is generally a ban on hand guns.

 

I grew up in the colonies in this time and the Brit influence of war preparation was still paramount in stuff like the scouts and the more senior cadets followed by conscription for national service. I have lived through a civil war on my own turf in the then Rhodesia and South Africa. The US only had a civil war no one can remember other than what is in history books. ALL of the US conflicts happened off shore. 9-11 gave you a taste of terrorism we have had here this side of the pond, massacres etc.

 

In the height of this, the 70s and 80s when I was late teen and early twenties, there was a proliferation of small arms sales. Yet in spite of this, few folk actually used them. The fear back then was of the "black man" but even if one happened to come onto your property (bearing in mind the segregation that existed at the time) you were not allowed to simply shoot him, he had to actually be in your house to allow a justified self defence shooting. These were of course not frequent. In Rhodesia our police were armed but their weapons were hidden under Safari suit styled uniforms, the women cops had handbags where their piece was stashed. It was an eye opener coming to SA to see traffic cops with guns openly displayed and police officers with firearms on their hips.

 

When the ANC took over power post 93, there was still very much a buzz of coup d'etat and subsequently there was a recall on all handguns, you had to reapply for your licence, do proper training and you could then keep it. Most folk having never needed to use their guns simply handed them in for destruction to the police. This was later deemed unconstitutional and I never did either, I still have my gun but cannot buy ammo w/o the new license. I do have enough to start a small war (about 300 rounds) so that is no problem. The gun I have not carried for 18 years, it stays in my safe.

 

Perhaps this disarming was not a bad call even though you can still get an AK47 on the black market for $50, criminals do not buy legal weapons.

 

In comparison, we have had 17 years post old regime and the sky has not fallen, folk are more tolerant of differences and we have adapted and moved on. That era of violence we all lived through on home turf, no one wants to go there ever again. What we do have still is much black on black violence that is gang related and accounts for the most of the violent crime, namely in the big cities. The place I lived in Jhb in 81 is now a cesspool and you no longer go there at night. There are no more theatres there, all of them have moved to safer locales like the suburbs as have many businesses.

 

Yet for all our problems, we have never had anything as bad as what the US experiences now regularly as far as mass killings go. The frightening thing is that most of these are perpetuated by non blacks.

 

So if you are looking for a root cause? It is the boomers that perpetuated this fear to their kids with the aid of religion. Pre 9-11, it really seemed the US was "becoming civilised" if I may put it that way, but once you had that tragedy, all hell broke loose and all the crazies came out of the woodwork again.

 

I really cannot criticize w/o acknowledging we are also pretty fucked up statistically speaking. Perhaps we too have become immune to violence and senseless killings.M

 

Maybe less guns means less off the cuff crazies being able to do real harm?

[RachelSkates]

I keep hearing the stupidest shit, too. 

 

"All those children are in Heaven"

 

well, what if you are a Calvinist? 

 

Also, the "our prayers are with...."

 

Well, where were they when that kid was spiralling out of control? We had a guy with bipolar at our church who was scary. They told him he was not allowed because he did stuff when he was sick they did not like 

 

They gave him food once in  a while, but when he tried to kill himself, they said, "Get help!"

 

Well, what help was there? He needed a god. He needed support.. He needed a ride to even get to  a shrink. And he was left alone in a trailer to rot. Xers suck at long term help. A meal here, a $50 there........not enough.

[wanderinstar]

On facebook I came across a relatively sane post regarding the CT massacre that included this link to an online news article;

 

http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/2012/12/16/gun_control_after_connecticut_shooting_could_australia_s_laws_provide_a.html

 

This article details how Australia had 11 mass shootings in the 20 years prior to April 1996 when a gunman killed 36 people in Port Arthur Tasmania. However after that awful tragedy the public outcry lent enough support to allow the government to ammend the gun laws and ban all semi-automatic weapons. A buy-back scheme was introduced and all banned firearms were melted down. Australia had no further massacres in the16 years that has passed since Port Arthur. Sure people have killed themselves and on rare occasion killed one or two others with available guns but without the rapid-firing capabilities no one has even tried to pull off a massacre.

 

Of course I understand that asking many Americans to part with even one of their guns(thus treading on their second ammendment rights) could lead to civil war which really makes this option impossible. Close American friends of mine explained to me - when I was visiting them in Iowa - that many see an armed country is the best weapon against tyranny; this argument does make some sense but I see the price of this and wonder. Maybe someone here can further enlighten me on the complexities of this issue. This is your country so I am not trying to pretend I know what should be done; I just noticed there is stong evidence from Australia's example showing tactics that may reduce the number of mass shootings. Don't want to tread on anyones toes; these shootings just break my heart.

[owen652]

"Praying 4 the families of this tragedy, let me say this, our nation will see more of this and worse! When u remove God and his laws, and teach our children they came from animals and they can do and live anyway they want with no absolute truth !! When marriages continue to fail and kids are left to pick up the pieces, where sin used to be shamed and is now celebrated, a nation and it people will suffer!!"

 

of course it has nothing to do with assault rifles being freely available to the general public. I saw someone who knew the shooter's mum describing her as someone who was 'a single mum, living alone near the woods' , so OF COURSE she needed guns. He said it with a straight face, like it was a logical explanation for her having two handguns and an assault rifle. WTF?!!!!!!! If this is the American psyche, you guys have no hope of ever getting gun reform and these massacres will happen forevermore. We had a big massacre here in Australia, the government responded as they should have by banning semi-automatic weapons and placing heavy restrictions on all other weapons and it WORKED. In fifteen years we have not had another massacre. The US has had four this year. I really hope Obama has the balls to stand up to the gun lobby this time.

[owen652]

sorry wanderinstar, didn't see your nearly identical post. y'know, I remember when the buyback scheme happened, my dad was really cranky about it cos we lived on a small acreage and hid away a couple of his guns for a while, but eventually even he could see the sense of it and surrendered them. I also remember the time, when I was about 12 or 13, that he left a rifle on the kitchen table while I was home alone, and I picked it up and played around with it.  So stupid. The military, and possibly farmers, are the only people with any 'right' to have a firearm.

[NeverAgainV]

I keep hearing the stupidest shit, too. 

 

"All those children are in Heaven"

 

well, what if you are a Calvinist? 

 

Right! I was a member of a 5 point Calvinist church (ironic that the leader denies he teaches "Calvinism", but that he teaches the true word of gawd...yeah, whatever ) back to my point, I don't even want to think about what the Calvinists believe because it is just too cruel.  The fact that they don't believe in the "free will" of men, only the free will of God, leads to some horrific conclusions about their "god". (((((shudder)))))