mymistake Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 Of course you can. If we are talking about hate as an emotion then it's just the counterpart to love. If it were impossible to hate (or love) something that doesn't exist then our emotional reactions would be evidence that they exist. Also there are movies and telivision shows where the audience loves the hero and loves to hate the villain. We know the characters are not real. Humans seem to get a kick out of getting our emotions worked up over things that aren't real. Usually this topic comes up for ex-Christians when we are talking to a friend or family member about our changing views and their knee-jerk reaction is an accusation. "Why do you HATE gawd??!!?!?" They don't even have to think about this. It's been conditioned into them for years. If you are not obeying God it's because of hatred of God. Hatred of God is the destructive force tearing apart the universe and all of creation - at least in the imagination of Christians. While we can't say we know with absolute certainty that there never was any god-like being we do know for a fact that we have no objective evidence that God exists. I think we just have to carefully word the reply so that we don't overstate our position. Instead of "It's impossible to hate what doesn't exist" perhaps a better response is along the lines of: a. It's silly b. It's absurd c. It's illogical d. It's kind of weird e. There is no need . . . to love or hate somebody when . . . w. rumors about them are so fantastic that one doubts x. there is no compelling reason to believe y. we have no objective evidence z. nothing shows . . . that they even exist. Or find your own wording depending on how simple or complex you want to make it. Of course you could still love God or hate God even though you don't believe in him anymore. It's just that one of the greatest things about being an atheist is there is no more emotional drive for any such hate or love. That is what being an atheist means. You are moving past the stage of loving or hating God. Oh you might slip up once in a while and feel an emotion for God. But then you realize there is no need for that anymore. The emotion passes right through and fades away. You don't have to attach to it any more than the feelings you have for Darth Vader or the Grinch-Who-Stole-Christmas. Do you hate that vampire who spent the last hundred years repeating high school just so that he could seduce a 17 year old girl? I don't but I do hate movies and books about him. Oh well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted December 15, 2012 Super Moderator Share Posted December 15, 2012 God can only exist as a human concept, and some of those concepts are worthy of hatred. I would just answer the question, "No, I don't hate your god or that of anyone else. I simply have found no reason to think any of them actually exist anywhere other than in a believer's mind." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realist Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 Well put Florduh! I was born into this shit ... fed to me from birth it was FACT ... I idolised my parents as ALL children do at a young age ... so ONLY truth was what could come from their lips! It took years for me to turn this around ... I guess I went through a god "hate" period! It was knowledge gained from reading, learning the vileness of how Christianity made it into the Western World .... learning about evolution ... learning about neuroscience and the brain ... and just plain thinking that truly has changed all that! So do I feel any hate for a god now? Do I feel any hate for santa not being real? Of course I do not! I just intensely dislike and feel pity for brainwashed people who have NO wish to think outside their eggshell .. all their arguments being subjective to within that small shell! As long as they keep their mouths shut to me I am fine!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babylonian Dream Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 I hate fascism, and it isn't a "living being", but when another follow its ways, it causes me problems. The same is true with God. Though I don't waste my emotions as much as I used to, so I don't hate God. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 I don't hate God. I don't hate smuglyglargs either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NEWsong Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 I agree...it is impossible to hate what "is not". They can't begin to believe the possibility that they ARE believing in something that does not exist.They are convinced so much so that there IS a god and that is reinforced by their "fact" of "knowing him personally". I think THAT is more outlandish to think about than thinking that there IS NO GOD but they are absurd and AFRAID TO CONSIDER THE POSSIBILITY that they are NO MORE SPECIAL than me or any other nonchrisitan and/or nontheist. But for NOT HATING others, they certainly have very strong (unchristian???) opinions of those who do NOT believe as they do...lol... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
movingon Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 I think its interesting that you should post this. I went through a period where I was very angry with God, and came to the conclusion that if I was angry with him I must believe in him. So I tried to go back to christianity. it obviously didn't work because i'm here, but you make some very good points I didn't think of when I was hating God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RachelSkates Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 My brain is so permanently soiled by all this that yes, I hate god. However, I do rationalize with myself, though. I am not crazy, it is just that you get used to "feeling" things about god. When you are little, oh, he loves yuo and you get all soggy and soft in the heart. then life chews you up and you wonder, "Where was the one who loves me so? " Well, the emotional connection to god does not go away. Unlike a spouse, where we may have a chance at a second or third marriage, it is not possible to trust another god. Well, I have not found it to be true. My sister and brothers' de-conversion substantiate this. PS: Why is "conversion" a word, and yet "deconversion" will trigger spell check?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted December 16, 2012 Author Share Posted December 16, 2012 My brain is so permanently soiled by all this that yes, I hate god. However, I do rationalize with myself, though. I am not crazy, it is just that you get used to "feeling" things about god. When you are little, oh, he loves yuo and you get all soggy and soft in the heart. then life chews you up and you wonder, "Where was the one who loves me so? " Well, the emotional connection to god does not go away. The beauty of it is that all the positive things you use to call "God" are still with you. They are just techniques your brain has at it's disposal. Any time you need it you can call upon the Peace That Passes All Understanding. It's something anybody can will themselves to do. You can still pray in tongues if you find it amusing. Since Christian spirituality is a bunch of parlor tricks you still have all the tools you did before. You get to decide if any of them are still useful to you. At family gatherings the ones who don't know often ask me to say the blessing. I say a very good blessing. When you first deconvert it's natural to have a lot of emotions you have to work through. But then when you sort it all out you often wind up much happier than when you were a Christian. Unlike a spouse, where we may have a chance at a second or third marriage, it is not possible to trust another god. Well, I have not found it to be true. My sister and brothers' de-conversion substantiate this. PS: Why is "conversion" a word, and yet "deconversion" will trigger spell check?? Keep using it. Usage will change the language. The number of deconverts keep growing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babylonian Dream Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 I hate the kgigargl. It doesnt' exist, but it just sounds horrendous. I just hope there's never an actual word like that, because it would just sound godawful . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geezer Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 This topic appears to have been motivated by something I posted in another thread. The central question seems to revolve around my original post where I said I don't hate God because it isn't possible to hate something that doesn't exist. I think it should be noted that context is everything. Maybe Christians aren't the only ones guilty of literalizing language that was intended to be understood as symbolic. figure of speech rhetoric and style figures of speech Definition: (1) In common usage, the opposite of a literal expression: a word or phrase that means something more or something other than it seems to say. As Professor Brian Vickers has observed, "It is a sad proof of the decline of rhetoric that in modern colloquial English the phrase 'a figure of speech' has come to mean something false, illusory or insincere." (2) In rhetoric, a type of figurative language (such as metaphor, irony, understatement, or anaphora) that departs from conventional order or significance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted December 16, 2012 Author Share Posted December 16, 2012 This topic appears to have been motivated by something I posted in another thread. The central question seems to revolve around my original post where I said I don't hate God because it isn't possible to hate something that doesn't exist. I think it should be noted that context is everything. Maybe Christians aren't the only ones guilty of literalizing language that was intended to be understood as symbolic. While your thread brought the topic up the things I wanted to say were based on crap I get from people in the real world. I nearly posted it in your thread but then I noticed you asked that a new topic be created. Anyway this is something I've been thinking about ever since my mother accused me of hating God. This thing about hating what you don't believe in comes up all the time. Christians tell each other such misinformation because they cannot consider the alternative. If Christianity were like every other religion then the Christian God must be like all the other gods. We don't hate Zeus by not believing in him. We also don't hate the Easter Bunny or Tooth Fairy by not believing in them. People often have residual emotion when they first leave Christianity but usually it fades. And then continuing to not believe in Jesus doesn't need to have any emotional meaning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miekko Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 This topic appears to have been motivated by something I posted in another thread. The central question seems to revolve around my original post where I said I don't hate God because it isn't possible to hate something that doesn't exist. I think it should be noted that context is everything. Maybe Christians aren't the only ones guilty of literalizing language that was intended to be understood as symbolic. figure of speech rhetoric and style figures of speech Definition: (1) In common usage, the opposite of a literal expression: a word or phrase that means something more or something other than it seems to say. As Professor Brian Vickers has observed, "It is a sad proof of the decline of rhetoric that in modern colloquial English the phrase 'a figure of speech' has come to mean something false, illusory or insincere." (2) In rhetoric, a type of figurative language (such as metaphor, irony, understatement, or anaphora) that departs from conventional order or significance. This seems to be a non sequiteur argument - do you mean your appeal to logic was just a figure of speech? But in that case I was correct in saying it was not logic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted December 17, 2012 Author Share Posted December 17, 2012 This seems to be a non sequiteur argument - do you mean your appeal to logic was just a figure of speech? But in that case I was correct in saying it was not logic! Is this some kind of game to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miekko Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 This seems to be a non sequiteur argument - do you mean your appeal to logic was just a figure of speech? But in that case I was correct in saying it was not logic! Is this some kind of game to you? No. I take logic rather seriously, and I dislike when people appeal to it without applying it even half-assedly. Sorry about this, but I find it even more annoying when people who are prone to holding the opinion that their opinions are the more logical ones do it. Certainly atheism is a more logical conclusion, but one can, you know, use illogical reasoning to reach a logical conclusion as well. An atheist who is an atheist due to illogical reasons has reasoning skills no superior to that of a Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geezer Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 This topic appears to have been motivated by something I posted in another thread. The central question seems to revolve around my original post where I said I don't hate God because it isn't possible to hate something that doesn't exist. I think it should be noted that context is everything. Maybe Christians aren't the only ones guilty of literalizing language that was intended to be understood as symbolic. figure of speech rhetoric and style figures of speech Definition: (1) In common usage, the opposite of a literal expression: a word or phrase that means something more or something other than it seems to say. As Professor Brian Vickers has observed, "It is a sad proof of the decline of rhetoric that in modern colloquial English the phrase 'a figure of speech' has come to mean something false, illusory or insincere." (2) In rhetoric, a type of figurative language (such as metaphor, irony, understatement, or anaphora) that departs from conventional order or significance. This seems to be a non sequiteur argument - do you mean your appeal to logic was just a figure of speech? But in that case I was correct in saying it was not logic! Yes. I agree with you. I should have worded my original post differently. And I agree with what you posted here. My bad. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 I just saw this thread, so I should have put my opinions about the logic of hating God here and not on the earlier thread. Sorry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted December 17, 2012 Author Share Posted December 17, 2012 I take logic rather seriously, and I dislike when people appeal to it without applying it even half-assedly. Sorry about this, but I find it even more annoying when people who are prone to holding the opinion that their opinions are the more logical ones do it. Certainly atheism is a more logical conclusion, but one can, you know, use illogical reasoning to reach a logical conclusion as well. An atheist who is an atheist due to illogical reasons has reasoning skills no superior to that of a Christian. It's not logical to push other people's buttons with insults and profanity in an effort to get them to be more logical. Lead by example. If you want others to be logical than fix yourself. Your anger comes from some false belief that is in conflict with reality. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new2me Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 I take logic rather seriously, and I dislike when people appeal to it without applying it even half-assedly. Sorry about this, but I find it even more annoying when people who are prone to holding the opinion that their opinions are the more logical ones do it. Certainly atheism is a more logical conclusion, but one can, you know, use illogical reasoning to reach a logical conclusion as well. An atheist who is an atheist due to illogical reasons has reasoning skills no superior to that of a Christian. It's not logical to push other people's buttons with insults and profanity in an effort to get them to be more logical. Lead by example. If you want others to be logical than fix yourself. Your anger comes from some false belief that is in conflict with reality. Agreed. Others on this post have offered counter-arguments without being mean about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted December 17, 2012 Author Share Posted December 17, 2012 I just saw this thread, so I should have put my opinions about the logic of hating God here and not on the earlier thread. Sorry! Easy to fix with cut and paste. Hi guys, here's an idea on the logic of saying, "I hate God." How about this: 1. If we are talking about God as a self-existing entity as posited by Christianity, then "hates God" can be predicated of some human de dicto but not de re. De dicto literally means "about the statement" and de re literally means "about the thing." Someone who says unicorns are cool is expressing an attitude toward the reference of a phrase that has meaning but does not have an attitude toward an existing animal that answers the relevant description. Same thing in the I hate God instance. Another example of the de dicto - de re distinction, from the opposite direction: someone hears a kind of poetry just invented and doesn't like it. Later on, after Jive Word becomes the term for that genre of poetry, someone remembers and says, "that guy hated Jive Word." That statement holds de re but not de dicto, since the guy had no conception of Jive Word as a genre. He did experience the reality and had an attitude about that existing reality. 2. If we are talking about God in some other context - say, as the character depicted in the Bible, or as a cultural meme - then I think we can say both de dicto and de re that someone hates that character or meme. In this case perhaps there would be fallacies of equivocation if people slide from this sense of "God" to "existing, necessary Being" - as a Christian might do if he says, "see, you really believe that God exists, because you hate God." Good point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 thanks, mymistake! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 I've just been able now to read the whole thread. my comment will be a bit repetitive, but I think people have done a good job of pointing out that it matters, what kind of entity we're talking about, when we try to disambiguate statements about hating God. The same problem would hold for loving God. As ex-Christians we all remember how fervently we loved "God." I'm not sure exactly how to classify the entity that is this "God": personified cultural meme or something, which we internalize as a very powerful image. Maybe a way to explain to the Christian that we can hate "God," or be indifferent to "God," while they can love "God," without God's existing as a substantial being independently of human minds, is to draw an analogy with a stuffed animal. A child can love its stuffed animal as a person and does not feel toward it as the assemblage of fabrics etc. that it is. Teddy or Kitty exists as an image in the child's mind, which is reinforced by familial custom and discourse. From the child's conversing with Teddy or Kitty it does not follow that Teddy or Kitty has a life independent of the child's imagination (and perhaps imagination of others in the child's life). Could the Christian get with some analogy like this to agree that the ex-Christian can have emotions about "God" AND not believe in God's independent existence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falemon Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Well although God doesn't intrinsically exist he does exist collectively in the minds of believers. If you want to get into semantics he does exist, in physically written texts, imprinted in the brain structures of victims unaware of their disability, and in the structure of society and the World at large that was shaped by religion. He is in the architecture, He is the hidden character in many paintings the hidden harmonies in God praising songs. So he exists in some form as a result of human beings believing in him. He exists in the pain of your relatives who have to suffer with images of you being burned for eternity and tormented by the Devil. He exists in the hearts of, and I'm going there, suicide bombers, in the hearts of the crusaders and in the minds of many mindless souls with mental health complications that were invoked by following a delusion favouring practice derived from the belief of this fictitious character. So we can hate something that does not exist so long as it interferes with the good things that do exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConureDelSol Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 I hate the human concept of God and what that concept makes people do. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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