Do I Say Something?

[Jose]

So there's this woman I know who has Stage IV cancer.

 

She's fairly successful financially, along with her family having money. She's got banging insurance and access to the best medical care in the South (the Mayo Clinic is three miles from her house on the beach).

 

She's always been really hardcore about her faith, but never more so than when she was going through chemo and had the "you've got maybe a year unless we can get this under control" talk with her doctor. I've had a couple of talks with her about religion, but I always pull my punches with her because I've figured, "well, she's about to die... if it makes her feel better, who am I to argue with her?"

Well now it's in remission again (this is the third time) and she's fucking insufferable.

 

Here's an example of her Facebook posts the last couple of days...

 

I am TRULY BLESSED!!! GOD is helping me beat this disease AGAIN!!! There is never a test that JESUS will give you that you cannot PASS by studying with HIM!!!

Doctors don't know what their talking about!!! I went from having less than a year to live to them doing a biopsy this Christmas eve to see if there is even any cancer in my body at ALL!!! THANK YOU JESUS!!!

 

Now, I don't talk to her much, but when we do talk, it's never about religion unless she brings it up trying to save me (she refers to me as a "lost soul"), but again, I pull my punches with her.

 

Well, after four years of, "she's going to die any day now," I'm kind of ready to light into her. Here's a Facebook message exchange we had day before yesterday.

 

 

 

Her - Did you hear about my remission?!!  the people at Mayo are saying that they just need to biopsy it to confirm.. but they think it might be completely gone!!!

 

Me - That’s great news! When will you know for sure?

 

Her - It will be GOD’S Christmas present to me!!! I’ll find out on Christmas Eve!!!

 

Me - Excellent! Be sure to let me know what’s going on.

 

Her - I will!!! We need to hang out J I still haven’t met your wife  and you said she was a ♥bald girl♥ too!!!!

 

Me - Her hair is grown out, actually. She was to the scalp around Halloween. After the holidays we definitely will hang out. We’ll go to Colonel Mustards or something.

 

Her - LOL!!! She needs to shave it again! ♥BALD GIRLS♥ RULE!!! Btw..have you given any thought to coming by my church on Christmas? My pastor would LUV to meet you!!!

 

Me - You know I don’t do church. Tell your pastor to come hang out at the bar and I’ll buy him whatever he wants. I’ll even get him laid. Does he like goth girls?

 

Her – Ha ha ha. NOT Funny! :-( You should really come by, you’d like it theres no hellfire or brimstone in his sermons. Its about God and his amazing ♥LOVE!!! I know for sure that GOD has taken a role in my life otherwise I wouldn’t even be alive!!! You know that too! You have SEEN Him WORK in my life!!! He is in control of my life and has given me ANOTHER chance to beat this disease into submission!!!

 

Me - Actually, you may want to thank the doctors who have worked their asses off for four years in the oncology department at Mayo for your recent remission.

 

Her - Well they wouldn’t have been able to do it without GOD!!!You know its true!!! I should be DEAD.. but instead I’m still here to PRAISE HIM!!! :-D

 

Me – Okay [NAME], whatever you say. Shoot me a line after the holidays, I have to get back to work.

Her - GOD wants to work in your life too Jose.. you just have to LET HIM IN!!!

 

 

She's so fucking chipper I feel like I'd be kicking a puppy, but I need to set some boundaries here if she's not actually dying and I'm looking forward to another few years of this (until god "tests" her again by having it come back for a fourth time) if I'm going to continue associating with her.

 

Has anyone else run into this or something similar?

 

I feel like by giving her so much slack when I thought she was going to be dead in 2009, I've lost my angry atheist credibility and anything I say that is really being like ME is going to sound like I've fundamentally changed... when in fact, I'll be being ME around her for the first time.

 

I don't know. Fucking cancer. Making shit confusing.

[BDPApostate]

Why not try telling her that her over the top god talk is getting really annoying, and you would prefer to keep that subject out of bounds. Tell her you would love to hang out, but not if she cant keep the constant god talk in check.

[Jose]

I've tried that.

 

Her identity is so tied up in her cancer and her faith that it's impossible for her to go more than like 10 minutes without talking about her cancer or god. I only knew her for like six months before she got diagnosed, but even then, she was definitely a god-botherer. At the time though, I was cool with it because it was fun to argue with her about eschatology and biblical interpretation.

After her cancer though, everything god-related became off-limits and I was just supposed to be "supportive," which seemed to be another way of saying, "what you think doesn't matter, listen to me talk about god." Which, as I said, I went along with, because frankly, when she was initially diagnosed, the doctor told her she wouldn't see 2010.

 

Also, I kind of wanted to bang her silly at the time... I'm over it, though.

 

There's nothing as unattractive as faith to me now, but she's still a cool chick on the rare occasions I can get her talking about music or art.

[Ravenstar]

She writes like a 12 year old at a slumber party. Does she talk like that in real life?  ack!

 

That is super annoying.. to me anyway.

 

I don't know what to tell you, I couldn't be around someone like that for very long without wanting to slap them upside the head. I've read a lot of your posts and think i have a somewhat good idea of the kind of person you are... I sense that even if you were extra-super-special-tolerant your wife would lose patience with her pretty quick.

 

Do you feel you owe her something? Is this messin' with your serenity? or is it something that only touches you a little bit?

[Jose]

She doesn't talk like that at all in person unless she's talking about god. She has a very husky voice and speaks very slowly unless she gets excited, but she writes like a retard.

 

I don't know about owing her something. However, I do feel like anyone I invested four years of friendship into is probably worth trying to salvage, but I think I'm getting to the point where the bad present outweighs the good past, you know?

 

You know, it never occurred to me until you said something, and I just sat her for a second feeling like a moron, but I bet if my wife were in a room with her for any length of time I'd end up being the witness to a murder... or the victim.

 

Nevermind, problem solved.

 

Thanks for playing everyone, but Ravenstar fixed it. Remember to tip your wait staff.

 

Wish I could upvote your post more than once. ¡Gracias, chica!

[Jose]

I emailed her this a few minutes ago... thanks again for the moment of clarity, Ravenstar.

 

 

 

Ashley,

 

When we first met, we had some great talks about religion, music, art, philosophy, and other great topics. We used to hang out on the beach, just talking, for hours. I'll never forget the first time we argued about some obscure religious doctrine that neither of us were willing to bend on, despite neither of us believing in. When we realized simultaneously that we were both arguing as an intellectual exercise, the laughter we shared was the beginning of a great friendship.

 

While we've been more than just friends a few times, we both knew it wasn't serious. I'm glad to have shared those times with you and I'll remember them fondly as I go through life's many strange turns. It seems lately that we only ever really talk anymore about your disease or your faith.

 

I remember when you were first diagnosed and how devastated you were. I remember your tears, your screams, the grim determination you had to beat it, your inability to succumb to what everyone thought was inevitable. I remember seeing you grit your teeth as you lost your hair to keep from crying. I can remember you saying that you would beat this... NO MATTER WHAT.

 

And then you started relying more and more on your faith and giving yourself less and less credit. I can understand to a certain degree, but to go from arguing as an intellectual exercise to not allowing dissenting viewpoints around you is an about-face. A denial of what made our friendship so fun. I was willing to overlook it though and have continued overlooking it for the last few years despite my natural inclination to argue with you because of who you used to be.

 

Well, given our past, and our very much different present circumstances, I'm not sure it's such a great idea for us to hang out again. While I'd like to revisit old times with you, I don't see us being able to recreate those good situations again. I see your faith as a serious stumbling block to our friendship and I don't want to hurt your feelings by losing my patience with you because of your beliefs since you seem unable to avoid talking about them. 

 

I am very close to losing it quite often when we talk online and I think if we were to get into it in person, especially with my new wife there, things could only end badly.

 

I wanted to explain, rather than to just disappear from your life and have you wondering why. I hope that this note didn't sully the memories of what we've shared before and I will always think of you fondly.

 

Yours,

Jose

[Ellwood]

Two thoughts:

 

One, Her communication almost sounds like the effects of some medication.   Is she taking any that are causing her to be a bit manic?

 

Two, Why are Christians, who believe they are headed to a wonderful eternity with gawd in heaven, always so giddy and happy when they discover that they get to stay down here with us heathens a bit longer?  

 

My 2 cents.

[blackpudd1n]

I can't say I've been in your exact situation, Jose, but I have met the type of Christian your friend has become, and I distinctly remember how much I wanted to throttle her. 

 

Picture this: I'm sitting  with my biological father's partner days after he passed away and I found out. I've traveled 5 hours to see this woman, so I could clear the air, find out about the funeral, and find out if it was okay for my sister and I to come. I'm also hoping to finally, after 11 years, make contact with my younger sisters.

 

And then, in waltzes her friend, who has apparently been helping with all the funeral arrangements. And her friend sits down, and starts talking, rapid-fire, about all that jebus has done for her, how wonderful jebus is, how jebus "healed" her of her chronic fatigue syndrome, how jebus gave her a car, yada, yada, yada... Yes, in this highly emotionally-charged environment, she's waltzed on in and started witnessing to me about how wonderful jebus is. I wanted to throttle her. It was just so fucking insensitive, and that's what they lose- their empathy and sensitivity.

 

And yeah, jebus heals. He heals really fucking well. Healed my father's foot so well, he got to die with it still attached. Fancy that, a diabetic getting to die with their foot intact. 

 

I think you've done the right thing, and the letter was excellent. Your wife is the first woman in your life now, whether anyone else likes or accepts that fact is not your problem.

[Ravenstar]

That's a great letter Jose...

 

I hope you have peace with this now

 

[msipsy218]

I have a frenemy who is that type of xtian. Always so goddamn happy it makes me want to throat punch her. Very in-your-face about everything jesus. She's never been through anything like cancer but I know that's how she would be.

[raoul]

What Ravenstar said, along with the others, is the most important - your own well being. Hanging out with someone like that would drive me absolutely nuts. But the reason she and others in the cult are so much like this regarding the incessant yakking away about the magical god and miracles can be explained, perhaps, with something I just heard while watching a movie.

 

The movie, Tinker-Tailor-Soldier-Spy, dealt with a mole inside of British Intelligence. In one scene the main character Smiley was sharing his attempt to get a Soviet spy to defect to the West. He recounted how all attempts to convince the guy, even break him aka Americans torturing him, had failed. But he knew he could get him to come over eventually because, as he explained it, "Every fanatic is hiding a secret DOUBT of some kind".

 

I pondered that for a while after the movie ended and it makes sense. After all, what's that Shakespearian line which says something about 'methinks he doth protest too much'?

 

So maybe deep down inside she is shared to death of what might be in the future - I dunno because I'm not a psychiatrist. But as stated - you have to think about your own path regarding this okay?

[blackpudd1n]

I have a frenemy who is that type of xtian. Always so goddamn happy it makes me want to throat punch her. Very in-your-face about everything jesus. She's never been through anything like cancer but I know that's how she would be.

 

Perpetually happy people piss me off full stop. For some reason, it almost feels like a challenge- what would it take to wipe that smile off their face? I feel like their over-exuberance is a dare or something. 

[Jose]

The aftermath... I won't be responding.

 

 

Jose- Wow.. I wasn’t expecting this and it feels like it came out of NO WHERE.. my faith is part of me as much as my arms or legs or head and for you to say that *MY FAITH IN GOD IS A STUMBLING BLOCK* to our friendship is not something I’d ever expect to hear especially from you.. you know more about my faith than I DO!!! You’ve read the bible so much you have whole CHAPTERS memorized and somehow you STILL don’t see where GOD has plans for you!!!???!

I had no idea that wanting to hang out with you and meet the woman who finally got you to marry her would be such a big deal.. were you worried I’d be sitting at the table and just blurt out *OH BY THE WAY, I HAD SEX WITH YOUR HUSBAND* and when we were having sex he was CHEATING ON HIS LAST GIRLFRIEND?!!! You should know me better than that but whatever if you don’t want me in your life, I’m not going to go where I’m not wanted but I’m still going to pray for you.. I never stopped talking to GOD to try and get you back to HIM and I won’t stop just because YOU don’t like my faith in HIM.
THANKS for at least being there when I needed you MOST but it never crossed your mind to ASK if i needed you NOW..

Ash

 

 

The guilt is strong with this one.

[silentknight]

 

I have a frenemy who is that type of xtian. Always so goddamn happy it makes me want to throat punch her. Very in-your-face about everything jesus. She's never been through anything like cancer but I know that's how she would be.

 

Perpetually happy people piss me off full stop. For some reason, it almost feels like a challenge- what would it take to wipe that smile off their face? I feel like their over-exuberance is a dare or something. 

 

 

Hmm, I'm not exuberant, but I generally am quite positive and happy. Please don't hurt me.

[MultifariousBirdLady]

But he knew he could get him to come over eventually because, as he explained it, "Every fanatic is hiding a secret DOUBT of some kind".

 

I pondered that for a while after the movie ended and it makes sense. After all, what's that Shakespearian line which says something about 'methinks he doth protest too much'?

That's what I end up thinking in some of these cases, too.

 

However, if someone pushes this issue directly, the natural reaction is for the other person to dig their heels in.

 

But as stated - you have to think about your own path regarding this okay?

Yes, this.

 

 

Jose, I understand not responding to her response.

 

You’ve read the bible so much you have whole CHAPTERS memorized and somehow you STILL don’t see where GOD has plans for you!!!???!

Oh, please.    This is a tactic they throw out to belittle the other person. It's a more subtle equivalent of "how could you be so stupid..."

 

 

 

were you worried I’d be sitting at the table and just blurt out *OH BY THE WAY, I HAD SEX WITH YOUR HUSBAND* and when we were having sex he was CHEATING ON HIS LAST GIRLFRIEND?!!!

This is low, low, low.

 

 

 

You should know me better than that but whatever if you don’t want me in your life, I’m not going to go where I’m not wanted but I’m still going to pray for you.. I never stopped talking to GOD to try and get you back to HIM and I won’t stop just because YOU don’t like my faith in HIM.

 

It always strikes me that when people say this, there seems to be an undercurrent that they want to punish the person they're praying for, along the lines of, "I'll make you eat crow." 

 

 

 

Jose, I'm so sorry she did this. 

[blackpudd1n]

The aftermath... I won't be responding.

 

 

Jose- Wow.. I wasn’t expecting this and it feels like it came out of NO WHERE.. my faith is part of me as much as my arms or legs or head and for you to say that *MY FAITH IN GOD IS A STUMBLING BLOCK* to our friendship is not something I’d ever expect to hear especially from you.. you know more about my faith than I DO!!! You’ve read the bible so much you have whole CHAPTERS memorized and somehow you STILL don’t see where GOD has plans for you!!!???!

I had no idea that wanting to hang out with you and meet the woman who finally got you to marry her would be such a big deal.. were you worried I’d be sitting at the table and just blurt out *OH BY THE WAY, I HAD SEX WITH YOUR HUSBAND* and when we were having sex he was CHEATING ON HIS LAST GIRLFRIEND?!!! You should know me better than that but whatever if you don’t want me in your life, I’m not going to go where I’m not wanted but I’m still going to pray for you.. I never stopped talking to GOD to try and get you back to HIM and I won’t stop just because YOU don’t like my faith in HIM.

THANKS for at least being there when I needed you MOST but it never crossed your mind to ASK if i needed you NOW..

Ash

 

 

The guilt is strong with this one.

 

...You just dodged a bullet, is all I can say.

 

Actually, no, I can say more (as always). 

 

"The girl who finally got you to marry her", and the "what did you think I was going to say...(yada, yada, yada)" speak volumes to me. Any chance your friend wasn't completely over you? Just kind of feels like there's something more going on with her, considering the shit she came out with, the assumptions she's jumped to here. Sounds like there's a little bit of jealousy going on, which, if there is, things would never have been good between her and your wife, and you probably would have had to make a choice at some point. No point putting your wife through that.

[blackpudd1n]

 

 

 

Hmm, I'm not exuberant, but I generally am quite positive and happy. Please don't hurt me.

 

 

lol it's only the ones that fake it that bother me. You know the type, and you know they're full of shit and just putting on a front. They're the ones I want to throttle. I can't handle people who are fake. And being excessively happy often goes hand-in-hand with being fake, for some reason. No-one is that happy all of the time. 

[raoul]

 

I have a frenemy who is that type of xtian. Always so goddamn happy it makes me want to throat punch her. Very in-your-face about everything jesus. She's never been through anything like cancer but I know that's how she would be.

 

Perpetually happy people piss me off full stop. For some reason, it almost feels like a challenge- what would it take to wipe that smile off their face? I feel like their over-exuberance is a dare or something. 

 

Gawd-damn but I've said it before (I think) - we really do have some common behavioral traits. What you just wrote about 'wiping their smiles off their faces' has been my ONLY freaking quest in life or so it seems. As you probably know already, the smiling types who seem to grin like idiots over anything and everything are probably the most ugliest inside. And nothing pleases me more than when I can make one of them show their true persona and explode on me. Whenever this happens I then impersonate them, give out a big smile, and walk away....

[raoul]

The aftermath... I won't be responding.

 

 

Jose- Wow.. I wasn’t expecting this and it feels like it came out of NO WHERE.. my faith is part of me as much as my arms or legs or head and for you to say that *MY FAITH IN GOD IS A STUMBLING BLOCK* to our friendship is not something I’d ever expect to hear especially from you.. you know more about my faith than I DO!!! You’ve read the bible so much you have whole CHAPTERS memorized and somehow you STILL don’t see where GOD has plans for you!!!???!

I had no idea that wanting to hang out with you and meet the woman who finally got you to marry her would be such a big deal.. were you worried I’d be sitting at the table and just blurt out *OH BY THE WAY, I HAD SEX WITH YOUR HUSBAND* and when we were having sex he was CHEATING ON HIS LAST GIRLFRIEND?!!! You should know me better than that but whatever if you don’t want me in your life, I’m not going to go where I’m not wanted but I’m still going to pray for you.. I never stopped talking to GOD to try and get you back to HIM and I won’t stop just because YOU don’t like my faith in HIM.

THANKS for at least being there when I needed you MOST but it never crossed your mind to ASK if i needed you NOW..

Ash

 

 

The guilt is strong with this one.

Jose, the sad problem is that these things always seem to end this way no matter whom we're talking or debating with. The childish rants and slurs surface which, to me, indicate some really serious subconscious/psychological problems with them.

[blackpudd1n]

 

 

I have a frenemy who is that type of xtian. Always so goddamn happy it makes me want to throat punch her. Very in-your-face about everything jesus. She's never been through anything like cancer but I know that's how she would be.

 

Perpetually happy people piss me off full stop. For some reason, it almost feels like a challenge- what would it take to wipe that smile off their face? I feel like their over-exuberance is a dare or something. 

 

Gawd-damn but I've said it before (I think) - we really do have some common behavioral traits. What you just wrote about 'wiping their smiles off their faces' has been my ONLY freaking quest in life or so it seems. As you probably know already, the smiling types who seem to grin like idiots over anything and everything are probably the most ugliest inside. And nothing pleases me more than when I can make one of them show their true persona and explode on me. Whenever this happens I then impersonate them, give out a big smile, and walk away....

 

 

I guess it's a just an itch we get to scratch beneath the surface of some people

[Jose]

I definitely feel like I dodged a bullet with this.

 

I love my wife and I'm fine with her being the only close female friend in my life. I think it's possible to be good friends with the opposite sex, but the older I get, the less likely it seems that people who were once lovers... even casual lovers... can ever be "just friends." There's always one person who still wants something (or, in the case of fuck buddies, wants something more) and in this case (like Pudd said) it was most likely her.

 

Despite the fact that no one likes being rejected, I was a little taken aback at how strident and confrontational she was in her response. Honestly, if I got something from someone else like what I sent her, my response would be simple and short... if I sent one at all. Something along the lines of, "Sorry, I didn't realize it was bothering you that much. I can try to tone it down if you'll give me another chance" (if I cared about the person) or, "Whatever, have a nice life" (if I didn't give a shit).

 

I honestly do hope for the best for her, but I won't be guilted into seeking to reopen this can of worms. She has other friends who have more in common with her now and they'll have to give her what she needs (if she really does need something she didn't ask for).

[msipsy218]

Definitely sounds like she wasn't over it. Why even bring that up? You made it clear why you didn't think it was a good idea to meet and it had nothing to do with your intimate past.

[RipVanWinkle]

Well, it's very unpleasant, to say the least, to continue to be friends with that kind on Xtian. I read somewhere that the Xtian who always wants to convert  someone, such that she con't leave it alone in any conversation, is not presenting her true self to you. She's playing a role. She is not being real and so neither can the conversation, It's very much like a salesman  wanting to sell you something and at the same time claiming to be your best friend. There's always an ulterior motive. I'm sure  everyone has to  deal with this from time to time. But the fanatic Xtian is worse because she is self righteous about it. That's what makes it so disgusting.

 

It is funny that she claims her doctors could't have done it without god. Does she think god could have done it without the doctors? Of course he could. You're life will be a lot more tranquil now.    bill

[new2me]

Honestly, if I got something from someone else like what I sent her, my response would be simple and short... if I sent one at all. Something along the lines of, "Sorry, I didn't realize it was bothering you that much. I can try to tone it down if you'll give me another chance" (if I cared about the person) or, "Whatever, have a nice life" (if I didn't give a shit).

That would be the reaction of a normal person.  If she really can't spend time around other people without constantly babbling on about jebus, she wouldn't be any fun to hang out with anyway.

[midniterider]

Ah, the problem was resolved. Removing my 2 cents...