Turned Off

[CDFree]

How many here were turned off Christianity by the way they were treated by a preacher or church leader?

 

What happened?

[alpha centauri]

For me, it was actually closely studying the Bible. For a long time, I tried to reationalize many of the bad things, thinking "Oh well, God's ways are higher than our ways. He must know best."

 

But I couldn't get past the fact that the average rational person's actions would be better than God's.

 

And trying to rationalize why a loving God would cast people into hell forever just because they didn't make one decision the way he wanted, well that takes the cake. If he forgives, he should forgive unconditionally. If he loves, he should love unconditionally. The Bible talks about unconditional love, but when you read it, it's very easy to see there isn't unconditional love.

 

Demanding blood to atone for sins? Seriously? Talk about a bloodthirsty god!

 

For me, the words of pastors and church leaders were far less important in my deconversion than simple logic and rationality. If thinking for yourself brings hell, and this god supposedly created hell and gave us the ability to think for ourselves, and he demands our obedience and worship (and sacrificing our freewill), what kind of a god is that?

[florduh]

The people and pastor at my church were great. My problem was with learning too much about the Bible and the religions it has spawned.

[RankStranger]

The preacher at the church I was forced to attend growing up- he was a great guy.  I still consider him pretty much family.  Other people at the church were a mixed bag- not distinctly better or worse in their behavior than people in general that I've met... but definitely more repressed and miserable.  

 

I dropped Jesus at age 13 for several reasons- mainly because the story was obviously a myth, and the interpretation that I was familiar with set up impossible standards of behavior.  For several years thereafter I was of the opinion that IF the jesus-myth was true, then I couldn't be saved and was destined for hell... but I was reasonably sure that it was bullshit.  By my early 20's, the myth had pretty much no hold on me whatsoever... just a little bit of subconscious baggage that will never really go away.

 

One thing that DID bother me about lots of christians when I was a kid was this:  I wasn't raised Baptist, but 90% of the people around me were.  I was raised Wesleyan, and that comes along with impossible standards of behavior (else you go to hell).  Not so for Baptists.  Those guys can do whatever the hell they want- they can be as nasty and dishonest as they please, with no implications regarding their eternal soul.  So long as they 'believe'- they're good to go.  I was quite jealous of those people- all they had to do was 'believe' (a little compartmentalization), maybe show up to church once in a while, and they were otherwise free.  If I'd been raised with that version of the myth, I might still 'believe' it.

[Ellwood]

Recently gave in to trying to meet with my old pastor to "keep up our friendship".   I did say that I do ask that people I meet with respect my beliefs and not view me as someone who needs "fixing".   

 

He replied, "Friends don't let friends drive drunk."   Comparing my belief system as on the level of a drunk driver.   How insulting!!   He said that he had no time for a friendship that restricted like that.  Out of love for me he at least wanted me to hear an "agenda" for my life but he would not meet with me if I was unwilling to let him prevent me from "driving drunk".

 

So, no meeting.   And I feel good about that.   And it is this site and you guys that help me lay those boundaries.

[R. S. Martin]

Ellwood,

 

I, too, found these forums helpful in learning how to set necessary boundaries with invasive Christians. I learned that I had the right to set those boundaries without feeling guilty. I don't know where I'd be were it not for these forums though most of the people who helped me back in 2006-07 no longer post. It's good to see that the tradition stuck and is still helping people in similar situations. Glad you were able to maintain the boundary.

[R. S. Martin]

How many here were turned off Christianity by the way they were treated by a preacher or church leader?

 

What happened?

 

"Bad treatment" was not the reason I deconverted, though I had my fair share of seriously bad treatment. The antidote for bad treatment is built right into the theology--good Christians forgive bad treatment. As per the Lord's Prayer: "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." In other words, if I don't forgive whoever does whatever I don't like there is no way I can ever hope to get to heaven because God won't forgive me, either. I was taught young that church leaders are just human, too, and subject to failure. Forbearance and forgiveness was my Christian duty if I hoped for the same.

 

With that hammered into my brain, into my very psyche, I wanted to know why Jesus had to die. Why couldn't God just forgive? Okay, I accepted that he was really really holy, but forgiving seemed to be part of holiness so why...

 

Oh forget it. A just and merciful God would not under any circumstances make anyone die as a symbol or just because sacrifice was what the Jews understood. There had to be a *real* reason, a physical barrier in the universe that prevented human souls from entering heaven, if God asked Jesus to die so we could get to heaven.

 

But the Bible didn't say so. The preachers didn't say so. In fact, the theologians and preachers did not even address the question in their highly educated theology texts or spirit-infused sermons.

 

At last insight struck. Perhaps there was no answer! And if there was no answer, a few months later, it occurred to me out of nowhere that there was no God.

 

I looked around and realized that this left me without the right to call myself a Christian.

 

Uh...what was I if I wasn't a Christian?

 

Shortly thereafter I found exChristian.net and learned the term "deconverted."

 

A new kind of bad treatment from the Christians ensued but old habits die hard, not to mention that forgiving and forbearing were also promoted by all the exChristians and respectable atheists I learned to know. The Golden Rule shone from many a post on ExC in those days.

[spherr]

I wasn't treated badly by the pastor, but he said/did a lot of stuff which helped turned me off.  He came to my church when I was 19.  At first, he didn't seem too bad.  Right after I figured out I was gay and came out to my parents, he started making these homophobic comments in church several times a year.  You know the usual ones...its sinful, Satan's work, etc.  That really began to turn me off Christianity and started the road to deconverting.

 

One thing that really got me mad with him is all the secrets he kept.  Through a little research (and it wasn't much), I found out that both him and the wife were previously married. He completely denies this is his "second" marriage and yet the evidence is pretty obvious...her youngest daughter is almost 30 and they have been married 22 years.  I found out through facebook that the wife's daughters had their father visit them around Christmas.  He usually talks about the holidays with his family, but he was very quiet about it this year.

[tothemorning]

At the bible college I attended I was called into a disciplinary board meeting. I was falsely accused by another student who conspired against me. The student was not present. The student was the son of Dallas area ministers who donated to the college each year and who sat on the board of presbyters. Gossip and slander was all the board needed to kick me out of college. I was about 19 or 20 and was about to  finish my 2nd year. I was advised that I had committed sins against the bretheren and came against god's anointed. I was in awe. I attempted to declare that I was conspired against. Upon attempting to speak I was abruptly interrupted and silenced. I felt like I was drowning and could not process what was going on in the name of a holy god. As I was given shame undeserved by 10 spiritual authorities who stared me down with accusatory beady eyes, I was handed my transcript, a letter of expulsion and told that if I returned to the campus I would be arrested for criminal trespassing. My world was shattered, the only world I knew, my spiritual purpose, activities in the name of god and friends were stripped from me. I walked off campus and looked up to the prayer tower where I had spent many, many hours praying for God's will with a sincere heart.  I left and as time transpired the trauma began to show it's face. 

Thank God I found a recovery group like Ex-C. 

[Lilith666]

I didn't quit because of the church leaders, but the minister is a jerk and the SS leader is a sheeple. The pastor said abolishing abortion and gays is more important than fixing the economy, because the latter's decline is divine judgment. The teacher said we "just gotta trust god" when I asked a question he couldn't answer, like why Moses said rape is OK, as long as the women are non-Israelites (see Numbers 31).

[RipVanWinkle]

I can't say that any specific christian caused me to de-convert, although unchristian-like conduct by christians were bothersome. But I recognized that specific bad behaving christians does not mean christianity is not true.However, I really don/t remember meeting any christians that appeared to do what Jesus said, except try to "win souls". The real thing, I believe, that caused me to start serious questioning was the fact that Xtianity never really worked for me. I never felt "the peace that passes understanding", or the holy spirit or any other change that was comforting or reassuring, except when a gifted speaker touched me emotionally.. This went on for many years. I always thought it must be my fault. I wasn't trying hard enough, etc. Once I did start to question Xtianity itself, things changed. But that took years, too.  Xtianity really has  everything going for it in our society: All the props are in place (church buildings, art, books, songs, ritual, robes, steeples, crosses, fish decals, litany, glib talkers, and most importantly, culture and history. That is, the history taught by the church. Once I read the first non-christian  book about the history of Xtianity the game was over, even though I didn't know it at the time. It was my own research that did the trick. Isn't it interesting that people never (at least to my knowledge) become christians on their own. There's always a proselytizer (sales person) who presents it to them. But from what I read in books and in this forum with nonbelievers the first step is taken alone. And it frequently, like with me, involves research which goes on for a long time before the nonbeliever finally meets another nonbeliever. And what joy that is! It's a breath of fresh air!    bill

[ConureDelSol]

I would say I was "disenchanted" by the behavior of people I knew from within the church.  I don't think that's what turned me off of Christianity.  In fact, it may have motivated me to try to be a better Christian than them.  It DID however start me down the path of more independent study and thought which we all know is the "point of no return".

[ClaraOlive]

But I recognized that specific bad behaving christians does not mean christianity is not true.

 

While I don't think it's an absolute sign that Christianity is not true, I think that it is an indicator.

 

The Bible itself says that Christians are a new creation with a new nature, who have the Holy Spirit within them to guide them.

 

So while there were some good, loving, caring Christians in my life, and some who were hateful, controlling and horrible, and most who were normal but on the judgmental side, what really impacted me wasn't that some Christians were nasty, but that as a whole, good and bad, Christians weren't really any different from any other group of people. And that as a whole, the Christians I knew weren't becoming more Christlike, but tended to stay just as they already were. Ultimately, I didn't see anything in the lives of Christians, even the best ones, that made me think they had a different nature than anyone else, or anything but their own personal goodness to guide them. I didn't see anything in the lives of Christians that I was missing.

[Thackerie]

I suppose mistreatment by clergy or a church community might give someone a reason to re-evaluate their faith, but I don't think it would be a leading cause for deconversion. Someone who really believed in Christianity (and especially the Hell threat) would simply find a different church to attend; it's not like the choices are limited.

 

I think many — probably most of us on this site — became EXchristians because we could no longer sincerely believe in the Christian doctrine after studying the Bible without god-goggles and/or researching the history of the development of the religion.

[RachelSkates]

At the bible college I attended I was called into a disciplinary board meeting. I was falsely accused by another student who conspired against me. The student was not present. The student was the son of Dallas area ministers who donated to the college each year and who sat on the board of presbyters. Gossip and slander was all the board needed to kick me out of college. I was about 19 or 20 and was about to  finish my 2nd year. I was advised that I had committed sins against the bretheren and came against god's anointed. I was in awe. I attempted to declare that I was conspired against. Upon attempting to speak I was abruptly interrupted and silenced. I felt like I was drowning and could not process what was going on in the name of a holy god. As I was given shame undeserved by 10 spiritual authorities who stared me down with accusatory beady eyes, I was handed my transcript, a letter of expulsion and told that if I returned to the campus I would be arrested for criminal trespassing. My world was shattered, the only world I knew, my spiritual purpose, activities in the name of god and friends were stripped from me. I walked off campus and looked up to the prayer tower where I had spent many, many hours praying for God's will with a sincere heart.  I left and as time transpired the trauma began to show it's face. 

Thank God I found a recovery group like Ex-C. 

 

This is TERRIBLE! I have been through similar. SOme very traumatic things to encourage my deconversion. It was not just reason, which though was indeed beginning, so perhaps it would have happened anyway.

 

My sympathy to you!! When you are told that YOU are the problem, it's TERRIFYING! I am sure you felt like all the air was let right out of your lungs. The nerve of them to do that to you and when you were so young.

 

I am so glad you have come here. I find the support here very comforting. 

[CDFree]

Thanks for the responses, I'm a little surprised by them, but on the other hand they show conclusions that have been drawn through a lot of thought.

 

Personally I've been put off the fairytale religion by Christians themselves.

[Ravenstar]

Christians themselves haven't been the good 'witnesses' they seemed like they should have been, to me anyway - but that was completely besides the point for why I fell away. Though now I can look and see they are no different, if not worse, than most folks. Fundamentalism in particular is a serious impediment to any organized religion, for me.

 

Ancient history, archaeology, sociology, actually studying the bible for myself, science, mysticism.. many things... but not personal things, led to my rejection of christianity.

 

The entire thing just doesn't make any sense to anyone willing to look at it as objectively as they can.

[♦ ficino ♦]

 I was raised Wesleyan, and that comes along with impossible standards of behavior (else you go to hell).  Not so for Baptists.  Those guys can do whatever the hell they want- they can be as nasty and dishonest as they please, with no implications regarding their eternal soul.  So long as they 'believe'- they're good to go.  I was quite jealous of those people- all they had to do was 'believe' (a little compartmentalization), maybe show up to church once in a while, and they were otherwise free.  If I'd been raised with that version of the myth, I might still 'believe' it.

A lot of Catholics are like that, too.  Protestants are taught that Catholics are gnawed with doubt about their eternal soul, but with purgatory, I don't find that to be so much the case.  Catholics figure if they're in the church, they're on the right side.  Compartmentalization pretty easy.  There are even Italians who say they're atheists but believe in the Madonna.

[RankStranger]

 

 

 

I was raised Wesleyan, and that comes along with impossible standards of behavior (else you go to hell). Not so for Baptists. Those guys can do whatever the hell they want- they can be as nasty and dishonest as they please, with no implications regarding their eternal soul. So long as they 'believe'- they're good to go. I was quite jealous of those people- all they had to do was 'believe' (a little compartmentalization), maybe show up to church once in a while, and they were otherwise free. If I'd been raised with that version of the myth, I might still 'believe' it.

 

A lot of Catholics are like that, too. Protestants are taught that Catholics are gnawed with doubt about their eternal soul, but with purgatory, I don't find that to be so much the case. Catholics figure if they're in the church, they're on the right side. Compartmentalization pretty easy. There are even Italians who say they're atheists but believe in the Madonna.

Yeah, I had rarely met a catholoc until adulthood - but those I've met aren't nearly as repressed and miserable as Wesleyans. And not nearly as spiteful and otherwise nasty as baptists. Seems to be all about tradition, ritual, and authority. It'll never be my cup o tea, but I can kinda see the appeal. Just follow along, do as you're told, and its all taken care of. Sure sounds better than the uncertainty and continuous striving that I was raised with.