TheLastEnemy Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 Uh, first of all, hello everyone, new here, blahblahblah. Anyway, I recently left Christianity, for many reasons, but recently, I have started researching Christian Apologetics, and it's kind of shocking to be frank. It seems that a lot of Biblical Prophecy is actually being fulfilled in today's current events. I Really don't know what to say, a lot of them can be chalked up to vagueness or wishful thinking but with some of them it's harder to do so. Before you direct me to the Top Ten Reasons not to Fear End Times Predictions sticky,I'm making a new thread because they aren't all as vague as that thread implies, anyway, here are some examples. 1. Psalm 83 apparently predicts most of the nations that are currently enemies with Israel, Basically Jordan,Syria,Lebanon,And Iraq. 2. Ezekiel 38:1-6 predicts some others, Iran, Russia, Turkey, Libya, And Ethiopia (Okay not Ethiopia). 3.Revelation 11:2 Predicts the sharing of the Temple Mount between gentiles and Jews, this is something the international community is attempting now. 4.Isaiah 43:5-6 Predicts the exact order from which the Jews would return to their homeland, it's also interesting because it says, "I Will say to the north,give them up, and to south,do not hold them back" (Paraphrasing), Russia (North), and Ethiopia (South) had to be persuaded to give the Jews up. 5.Zechariah 12:3 predicts that Jerusalem will cause international travel. 6.Isaiah 66:7-8 Speaks of Israel being born in a day, which it sort of was. 7.Ezekiel 4:3-6 Predicts the exact date Israel would be restored. I'm a little iffy on this one. 8.Revelation 9:16 and 16:12 speak of a 2 million man army in the east that will march over the dry Euphrates and attack Israel, China's army is of this size, the Euphrates is drying up, and Chinese-Israeli relations aren't great. 9. Revelation 8:11 predicts that a star called Wormwood will fall out of the sky and poison the water supply, interestingly, Chernobyl means Wormwood in Ukrainian. It didn't fall out of the sky though. 10. Revelation 9:1-11 Mentions an angel called Apollyon which opens a bottomless pit, allowing it's smoke to cover the sun. Apollyon translates to "The Destroyer", and so does Saddam Hussein, who lit many oil wells on fire during the First Gulf War, allowing the smoke to blot out the sun. Saddam wasn't, However, an Angel, to the best of my recollection 11.Revelation 13:16-17 mentions the Infamous "Mark Of The Beast", without which no man might buy or sell. The RFID Chip implant technology now has a buying capability, and the best places to implant it are apparently the right hand and forehead. (This one may be mostly a hoax.) So can someone please debunk these?, I'm kinda freaking out here.
Llwellyn Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 I'm sure others will have some more detailed replies. But, as you suspect, the prophecies can mean just about anything, they were written in a prophetic style that made them susceptible to be varied interpretation. There were people in the year 200 AD who would have just as much reason to believe that "The prophecies were being fulfilled in our times." The same goes for every decade, century and millenium since then. And this will continue for the next thousands of years, so long as those prophecies will be read. They are a Roscharch blot upon which a clever person can project anything. Also, there is not a single prophecy which holds any predictive value. Every time someone says that a prophecy has come true, it is always retrospective. No one can take the book of Revelations and become rich with odds-makers in Las Vegas, because they prophecies prophesy nothing in particular. No one has ever become rich by gambling with the "knowledge" of future events predicted by the Bible. The Bible is not the only book of prophecy. Other books of prophecy are equally as successful as the Bible. Also, no one has ever been proven a liar by prophesying war, death, destruction, famine, drought, human migration, etc. etc. etc. These things are all GUARANTEED to happen, and it takes no soothsayer to see them in the crystal ball. The future is not set into stone, and there is no mastermind who has predetermined the course of history. Prophecy cannot be real because the future is an unwritten book. Finally, even if it were true that the Bible prophesied the future -- what then? Would it mean that it was good to be a Christian? Would it mean that Yahweh is omnipotent? That of all the Gods, he is the most powerful? Would it mean that it is right to worship Yahweh? If a certain book predicted events in the future, that would prove nothing except that a certain book predicted events in the future. It would be a curiosity, but it would be no basis for adopting a religion or living a life. 4
Overcame Faith Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 Welcome to ExC, TheLastEnemy. I am sorry you have gotten caught up in "end-time" fears. You are not the only one, though. You have quite a list and it would be quite time consuming to go through each and everyone and debunk them as you ask. But I will try to lend you some assistance as time permits. However, you must participate in this endeavor, as well. I would like to start by asking you a couple of questions about Psalm 83 (as a starting point) for your serious consideration. Where in that Psalm do you see the words Jordan, Syria (not Assyria, but Syria), Lebanon, and Iraq? Where in Psalm 83 do you see any indication that the author is speaking of a time period other than the time period in which the psalm was written? Who does the psalm say the countries named therein are the enemies of and on whom does the psalmist call to overpower these enemies? Consider these questions and we can move on from there.
LivingLife Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 Simple, you started out from the premise of Israel re-established in 1948 by the League of Nations or UN and are doing what all apologists do, draw a conclusion then seek the evidence to support the conclusion. The Jewish messiah has to re-establish Israel and bring world peace, this would make the UN Israel's messiah and it is not even Jewish. Jewish scholars will tell you this relates to other times and events but the truth is, not even their fairy tales are based on historical fact. Kinda like trying to prove Harry Potter with Lord of the Rings. Both fiction. The Jews today are descendants of converts Arkhazi Jews (sp?) from Turkey and some will admit this. The Jews that lived in Palestine before the UN gave us this headache, were likely the descendants of the original biblical time Jews but they are assimilated now. A Jew is a Jew if the mother is a Jew. The father need not be a Jew so long as the mother does not abandon her faith. The Orthodox Jews see this different. So you have really no original descendants and there is no Mosiach (Jewish Messiah) to come. Most of them probably have accepted this will never happen. If you think about Jerusalem, it is about all that bears some historical significance to the babble. Bethlehem is well entrenched in Palestine and is the place jeebus was allegedly born. Bethlehem is not where this messiah was expected to come from and the bible mentions this conveniently. One would think his birthplace would be the a place the woos would like to annex and get back into the hands of the Jews. Bear in mind, the Jews play to the whims of the American Evangelicals as this kinda is a survival strategy. Pretty much the US is the only country left supporting Israel financially with the UK a distant second. Germany had something with postage stamps and a % that was paid for the holocaust but we all know that era has passed with email and faxes so it would be a pittance today. The real question is if Israel is sooo much the bible prophesy being fulfilled, why then are nearly 50% of Jews still in the USA? I did a simple flood type exercise of two surviving Jewish couples surviving the war in 70CE and each having 5 kids and a generation 40 years as alluded to in the babble, three generations alive at any one time and kids bearing 5 kids by age 30 and dying out at 50ish. Based upon that population growth, there should be 440 million of them today but we only have <15 million. Something does not add up and the holocaust would only have caused a minor dip in population IF there descended from so far back. As soon as you pose questions like this to them, you are dealt the anti-Semitic Jew hater card. They know their origins are much much later. You can do this with an excel spreadsheet. What is missing are many other genocides like the holocaust but they only offer the Spanish Inquisition and nothing else. They have tried everything to legitimise their origins from Israel but even their genome mapping of some unique gene in Jews, it only proves they have some origins that are similar. Furthermore, inbreeding causes problems which we only find in the uber orthodox Jews and not in the more secular ones. What I am trying to show here, in Europe we have a history of shit like the plagues that did wipe out many but ironically, the Jews were not as badly affected due to their dietary laws which then puts their origins at like the last 400-600 years. Of course they will claim Christian persecution and of course the holocaust, we are never going to be allowed to forget that one EVER. When I was looking for the truth and origins, I conversed with Rabbis but then they have a rule they are NOT allowed to discuss this with Goyim and you are left with vague answers. The majority of Jews recite the Torah like the Muslims recite the Quran. They really do not understand what they are reciting and there are far more secular Hebrew scholars that understand the nuances of their language better than their scholars do. The real irony is that the Jewish messiah fits the evangelical antichrist like a glove except for the miracles. You will probably have to find this all out for yourself like I did to be fully convinced, but this is a synopsis of what I discovered. Ask yourself this, why would an occupying force adopt the religion or parts thereof of their vanquished foes? Does not make sense does it? Back then Caesar was god and king and if you look at the RCC and the pope and all the pomp and dance that goes with that religion, one can see they morphed some here some there and invented a new religion circa 350CE. The ONLY reason it has survived this long was that initially they convinced the aristocracy and christianity became the decree of the relevant king. What is better, try and support a mercenary army to steal and plunder or find a way for people to willingly give money to Rome for the invented religion. In that time man was likely in the infancy of enlightenment and were seeking answers like our educated scientists of the 17th to 20th centuries finally did. Some speculate that if we did not have the church age, aka the dark age, we would have been so much further along by now. A lot of modern scientific concepts did already find birthing at the alleged time of jeebus. It is a deep rabbit hole and the answers are astounding. IMO America is the only axxess of evil keeping the RCC afloat and they too like the Jews will pander to the evangelicals and make them honorary Catholics. W/o the USA, christianity is doomed to implode and I hope to see it happen in my lifetime. Back to your question, this falling away of us (ex)christians is also supposed to herald in the end times. Feel free to ask questions. I cannot give links and share from memory but rest assured, it is all out there on the interwebz.
LivingLife Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 To put my worldview in perspective, coming from South Africa, pre independence, the old apartheid regime and Israel were very tight and exchanged military armaments. At that time we saw a surge in this evangelical woo end times shit. Subsequent to that, I do not think we have diplomats anymore in Israel. ALL of the feared stuff never came to pass. I was caught up in this crap circa 90/91 and what I have seen is the total opposite to their RWNJ predictions. We are far from perfect but the different races do live in harmony here. Looking in, the USA reminds me a lot of SA in that 90s era, same arguments about guns, civil liberties etc. Gays can marry, abortions are legal to 20 weeks and the sky is still up yonder. Probably a lot of xians here came to realise in RL and in real time what the scam of xianity really was. Today, observed in my town, probably only 3.5 to 5% actually go to church and being xian here has been reduced to a cultural identity.
TheLastEnemy Posted January 7, 2013 Author Posted January 7, 2013 Welcome to ExC, TheLastEnemy. I am sorry you have gotten caught up in "end-time" fears. You are not the only one, though. You have quite a list and it would be quite time consuming to go through each and everyone and debunk them as you ask. But I will try to lend you some assistance as time permits. However, you must participate in this endeavor, as well. I would like to start by asking you a couple of questions about Psalm 83 (as a starting point) for your serious consideration. Where in that Psalm do you see the words Jordan, Syria (not Assyria, but Syria), Lebanon, and Iraq? Where in Psalm 83 do you see any indication that the author is speaking of a time period other than the time period in which the psalm was written? Who does the psalm say the countries named therein are the enemies of and on whom does the psalmist call to overpower these enemies? Consider these questions and we can move on from there. 1.It doesn't use the modern names of course, but I did some research and matched up the ancient kingdoms to their current locations. Edom, Moab, and Ammon are modern Jordan, Phillistia is the modern Gaza Strip (Forgot to mention that one), The inhabitants of Tyre are modern Lebanon (I Meant Lebanon not Syria, my geography is bad), and Assyria is Iraq. 2.No indication that it is prophecy, I hadn't really checked. 3. He says they are confederate against Israel, and prays for God to smite them down.
pratt Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 oh, yes, the prohecy,,, what did jesus say? some of that generation will not see death,,,, still waiting for the 2000 year old chap,,,,
HymenaeusAlexander Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 No need to freak out. I just want to point out that you’re doing something that I used to do as a Christian when confronted with claims that made me uncomfortable. You’re running to a source you’re already inclined to agree with (the people on this site) to refute something that is not lining up with your current view of things. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but a critical thinker should beware of confirmation bias in all forms. We may, after all, be wrong. That said, let’s look at what we’ve got here. Most of it is what I like to call “Carly Simon prophetic interpretation.” In other words, we’re so vain, we probably think this stuff is about us: 1. Overcame Faith has already done a fairly good job of getting you started on this one, so I’ll leave it alone. 2. What army uses horses and horsemen, shields, swords, clubs, spears? Are there traders in Tarshish? How much cattle are in the Middle East to be plundered (v. 12-13)? How many forests remain in Israel today (39:10)? What if the writer of Esther, knowing that Ezekiel predicted such an event that didn’t actually come true concocted the whole story of Purim to account for it (Esther 9)? Why should we even regard Ezekiel as a serious prophet of Yahweh? He didn’t even get the prediction about Tyre right (26:7-14) as Nebuchadnezzar laid siege but failed to destroy the city. He was wrong and the Torah says we need not fear his predictions (Deut. 18:20-22). 3. This is not predictive. It is descriptive. There was an outer court for the Gentiles to worship in during the Second Temple period. The holy city was already “trampled on” by the Romans. 4. Again, this is not predictive. It’s already happened. The Jews returned to their homeland after the decree of Cyrus. Using “the south” and “the north” is just typical Hebrew parallelism found in their poetry. 5. I’m just not seeing that prediction in this verse at all. What am I missing? 6. Zion is giving birth here, not the UN. 7. 390 days = 390 years. The Jews were without a nation for how long? The Septuagint reads 190, so we don’t even know if we have the right number. What if this is referring to what Ezekiel thought was the number of years between the dividing of the kingdoms after Solomon and the fall of Jerusalem? Or what if he was predicting that they would return to the land in 541? The math “adds up” either way if we keep in mind that Ezekiel could be wrong about his dates. 8. In Greek it says “twenty thousand of ten thousands.” Given all the other symbolism in Revelation, it is possible that the numbers are symbolic and that is what’s emphasized here and not the total of 2 million? Why would China have any interest in invading Israel? How are India, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq and others going to feel about 2 million Chinese soldiers marching through their territory? 9. Chernobyl was 27 years ago. I missed a third of the sea turning to blood from the second angel and that fourth angel who is supposed to strike the sun, moon and stars is sure as hell running late. Did Chernobyl fall from the sky? Did it pollute one third of the rivers of the earth? Chernobyl translates to mugwort; not wormwood. Someone is forcing this interpretation on this event. 10. How old are these claims? Are they from the early 90’s? Chernobyl and now Saddam Hussein and Gulf War I? Sorry, but this one isn’t even worth addressing and you've already plugged a pretty big hole in it yourself. 11. I thought it was supposed to be our Social Security numbers? Anyway, the writer may be referring to the time during the Jewish revolt against Rome when they coined their own money. The Greek word translated as “mark” can refer to the image on stamped coins. Roman coins were stamped with emperors and gods. Imagine trying to trade in first century Roman using the equivalent of Confederate money. The right hand and forehead were symbolic of deeds and thoughts. Anyway, there’s my take. Please don't take my tone to mean that I was attacking you or thinking you were dumb for even considering these claims. It's hard to break away from this stuff when you've been hearing it all your life and some of these people can be pretty slick and convincing in their presentation of this junk. I hope I helped.
Overcame Faith Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 1.It doesn't use the modern names of course, but I did some research and matched up the ancient kingdoms to their current locations. Edom, Moab, and Ammon are modern Jordan, Phillistia is the modern Gaza Strip (Forgot to mention that one), The inhabitants of Tyre are modern Lebanon (I Meant Lebanon not Syria, my geography is bad), and Assyria is Iraq. Right, the modern names are not used. But wouldn't it stand to reason that if the God of the Bible wanted us to know something this important about our modern times, he would use the modern names so we would have no doubts about the message he was trying to give us? Surely, this god would know such a thing as that. It seems to me that if the God of the Bible knew what was going to happen in our modern times, he would tell us using the names of the countries involved that we use today so we would have no doubts. But, instead, you must make various inferences that this and that ancient country is the equivalent of the modern nations and ascribe the motives that were outlined in Psalm 83 some 2,500 (or so) years ago to these modern nations. Let me give you a non-biblical example to illustrate the absurdity of such thinking. In 410 CE, the Visigoths sacked Rome. The Visigoths were a Germanic tribe who lived in what is today, Germany. Rome, of course, is still a city and is part of modern day Italy. Using your reasoning, I conclude that modern-day Germany plans to sack Italy (or the city of Rome). 2.No indication that it is prophecy, I hadn't really checked. That's right, by its own terms and the words used, Psalm 83 does not purport to be prophetical. Yet, despite the words of the text, you (and the end-timers) have taken a non-prophetical text and attempted to turn it into one. Psalm 83 was nothing more than a commentary on what the author thought was happening at the time he wrote the text. It has nothing whatsoever to do with today and, by its own terms, does not purport to apply to today. 3. He says they are confederate against Israel, and prays for God to smite them down. Close but not quite. Read the text of Psalm 83 carefully. What the author says is that these people are forming an alliance against God (v.5) and that they plan to carry out their plot against God by attacking God's people which obviously refers to ancient Israel. The mistake you and others make is to assume that ancient Israel and modern day Israel are one and the same, but they are not. If we believe the Bible, ancient Israel was composed of twelve tribes. Modern Israel is composed only of the tribe of Judah or the Jews, the other tribes (other than some Levites) being lost to history. What is more, the borders of modern Israel fall far short of the borders of ancient Israel. In other words, modern Israel is not the same as Biblical ancient Israel so any comparison to what was written about in Psalm 83 cannot and does not equate with modern times.
TheLastEnemy Posted January 7, 2013 Author Posted January 7, 2013 No need to freak out. I just want to point out that you’re doing something that I used to do as a Christian when confronted with claims that made me uncomfortable. You’re running to a source you’re already inclined to agree with (the people on this site) to refute something that is not lining up with your current view of things. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but a critical thinker should beware of confirmation bias in all forms. We may, after all, be wrong. That said, let’s look at what we’ve got here. Most of it is what I like to call “Carly Simon prophetic interpretation.” In other words, we’re so vain, we probably think this stuff is about us: 1. Overcame Faith has already done a fairly good job of getting you started on this one, so I’ll leave it alone. 2. What army uses horses and horsemen, shields, swords, clubs, spears? Are there traders in Tarshish? How much cattle are in the Middle East to be plundered (v. 12-13)? How many forests remain in Israel today (39:10)? What if the writer of Esther, knowing that Ezekiel predicted such an event that didn’t actually come true concocted the whole story of Purim to account for it (Esther 9)? Why should we even regard Ezekiel as a serious prophet of Yahweh? He didn’t even get the prediction about Tyre right (26:7-14) as Nebuchadnezzar laid siege but failed to destroy the city. He was wrong and the Torah says we need not fear his predictions (Deut. 18:20-22). 3. This is not predictive. It is descriptive. There was an outer court for the Gentiles to worship in during the Second Temple period. The holy city was already “trampled on” by the Romans. 4. Again, this is not predictive. It’s already happened. The Jews returned to their homeland after the decree of Cyrus. Using “the south” and “the north” is just typical Hebrew parallelism found in their poetry. 5. I’m just not seeing that prediction in this verse at all. What am I missing? 6. Zion is giving birth here, not the UN. 7. 390 days = 390 years. The Jews were without a nation for how long? The Septuagint reads 190, so we don’t even know if we have the right number. What if this is referring to what Ezekiel thought was the number of years between the dividing of the kingdoms after Solomon and the fall of Jerusalem? Or what if he was predicting that they would return to the land in 541? The math “adds up” either way if we keep in mind that Ezekiel could be wrong about his dates. 8. In Greek it says “twenty thousand of ten thousands.” Given all the other symbolism in Revelation, it is possible that the numbers are symbolic and that is what’s emphasized here and not the total of 2 million? Why would China have any interest in invading Israel? How are India, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq and others going to feel about 2 million Chinese soldiers marching through their territory? 9. Chernobyl was 27 years ago. I missed a third of the sea turning to blood from the second angel and that fourth angel who is supposed to strike the sun, moon and stars is sure as hell running late. Did Chernobyl fall from the sky? Did it pollute one third of the rivers of the earth? Chernobyl translates to mugwort; not wormwood. Someone is forcing this interpretation on this event. 10. How old are these claims? Are they from the early 90’s? Chernobyl and now Saddam Hussein and Gulf War I? Sorry, but this one isn’t even worth addressing and you've already plugged a pretty big hole in it yourself. 11. I thought it was supposed to be our Social Security numbers? Anyway, the writer may be referring to the time during the Jewish revolt against Rome when they coined their own money. The Greek word translated as “mark” can refer to the image on stamped coins. Roman coins were stamped with emperors and gods. Imagine trying to trade in first century Roman using the equivalent of Confederate money. The right hand and forehead were symbolic of deeds and thoughts. Anyway, there’s my take. Please don't take my tone to mean that I was attacking you or thinking you were dumb for even considering these claims. It's hard to break away from this stuff when you've been hearing it all your life and some of these people can be pretty slick and convincing in their presentation of this junk. I hope I helped. Thank you very much. I Try to avoid confirmation bias, which is why i was researching Christian Apologetic in the first place. But yeah, I didn't escape it completely. On number 5 I meant trouble, not travel.
centauri Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 The Book of Revelation starts out by saying the events described in it would be happening soon, "the time is at hand". Jesus then compounds the error by saying repeatedly he is coming soon. The Book of Revelation debunks itself. The only way to get around that fact is to redefine "soon" to mean thousands of years, which is what apologists do. That's also a major reason I left the faith, apologetics is forced to be dishonest in order to prop up a system that promises much and delivers very little.
user_0168486295 Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 There is so much failed prophesy in the bible, it's hard to take any of it seriously. Nostradamus made better predictions, and even they can be twisted to say what we want them to say. Like the story of Lot, turn from Christianity and don't look back. DON`T LOOK BACK!
alpha centauri Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 As someone who began following Bible prophecy as a child in the 1970s (it scared the bejeebers out of me), I can confidently say that today I believe it is a load of bunk. I've read and watched stuff by Hal Lindsey, Grant Jeffrey, Joel Rosenberg, John Hagee and many others. One thing that the Bible prophecy gurus have done since Hal Lindsey is keep moving the goal posts, and people keep buying in. Why? For one thing, the verses are often rather vague and can be interpreted in many different ways. For another thing, people often WANT to believe the things are true, that someone has a direct connection to God and that he's given warnings and advice. If that was true, wouldn't any kind of God worth his (or her) salt be much more specific? Wouldn't they want to be clear, so that multitudes of false prophets and flim-flam artists wouldn't deceive people? 1. Psalm 83 predicts a war between nations that Israel has been fighting with for thousands of years? (sarcasm alert:) AMAZING!!! Who woulda thunk it? 2. See, Bible prophecy experts mention those nations, but the Bible uses a lot of archaic and uncertain names. Wouldn't a prophet of God know that those nations would be called Russia (and not Magog), Libya (and not Put), etc. in the future? Why wouldn't God want to be more clear, hmmm? Could it be because the prophets weren't really seeing into the future, but only extrapolationg based on what they knew and thought from their era. 3. When the Jews returned and captured Jerusalem, they had the Temple Mount but gave it back to the Muslims. While they have access to the Wailing Wall, it's not exactly as if they are sharing the site or have a new temple built on it. Even if they did, so what? There was a Temple there 2,000 years ago. It's not exactly the most difficult prediction in history to think that the Jews would want to claim their holy site again some day, and build again there if at all possible. 4. The Jews returing to the Middle East was much more a product of the Holocaust and collective guilt by the world than Bible prophecy. It only stands to reason that if the nation of Israel exists, Jews would come from far and wide to escape the discrimination they've felt in other nations. Unfortunately for them, they've returned to an area hotly contested by others who still want to harm them. They're not exactly living in the peace and tranquility that the Bible prophisized they would. 5. Looks like at least one of the predictions made came out right. You throw enough darts at a board, eventually some of them will stick. Jerusalem was the center of controversy because of the Jews desire for it, and it was sought for destruction by the Babylonians, Romans, etc. for centuries. The Muslims followed suit, and during the Crusades, so did the Christians. This is a bit of self-fulfilling prophecy, more than anything else. If religious lunatics weren't so obsessed with Jerusalem, causing the world to get sucked into this controversy, it obviously wouldn't be an issue. 6. Not eactly. As someone interested in the history of the Jews and the Middle East (modern as well as ancient), I've read plenty of books about how Israel was reborn. It took decades, not a day. Jews who were persecuted in Russia and elsewhere in Europe dreamed of re-establishing a homeland in the Middle East even since they had been uprooted. The Zionist dream (re-establishing Jewish control over what had been Israel 2,000 years ago) began to pick up stream in the 19th century. People snuck into the area during the early 20th century, which continued throughout and after World War II. The nation wasn't born in a day, miraculously appearing from nothing, any more than America was born in a day on July 4, 1776, modern China was born in a day when the communists seized power, etc. Saying Israel was born or reborn in a day is a tremendous inaccuracy. 7. When someone issues a proclamation that is vague or can be interpreted in different ways, all too often people try to make it fit to a prophecy. 8. Those nations in Asia have always been seen as large. Many people say the army actually refers to demons, and not people, so they could make up any number they wanted. As far as rivers, MANY of them are known to go dry. Drought in the world and especially in the hot region of the Middle East is commonplace. 9. Looks like Bible prophecy missed that one, doesn't it? Also, stars don't fall out of the sky. A meteorite can, but the Bible says a star. A star can explode (called a super nova), but that doesn't match up with what the ancient prophet described. Other prophecies talk about numerous stars falling from the sky. But that was written during an area when the Hebrews didn't know stars were billions of miles away, and that the light seen was centuries, millennia or eons old, and not a current reflection. 10. More religious fear images described by isolated prophets who had plenty of time to "commune with God" and let their imaginations go wild. Islam, as well other religions before Christianity and Judaism also describe apocolyptic imagery. Check out Norse mythology for a prime example (Ragnarok). 11. The mark of the beast has been seen as a literal mark, a tattoo, bar code scans, microchips, etc. Whatever the latest technology is, there's always someone who fears it and calls it a devil's curse.
alpha centauri Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 *** There are also examples of Bible prophecy not coming true: 1. Jesus said he would return soon, and Revelations was seen as a book of hope to those suffering persecution from the Romans. Their hope was in vain. John wrote "Come quickly Lord Jesus" in anticipation that he would, and yet, it's been almost 2,000 years and still he hasn't appeared. Bible literalists like to quote the verse that 1,000 years is like a day to the Lord, and a day is like 1,000 years. That's vague mumbo jumbo. The early Christians believed Christ's return was imminent. Why? The Bible and the prophets told them so. Belief that "the end is near" has been part of the human experience for thousands of years. People who took Jesus' words literally believed he would return soon. That's what their hope was based on. No prophet ever told them, "well, you might have to wait a few thousand years, but what's that among friends." 2. Jesus said that all of the prophecy would be fulfilled before all of those gathered among him would pass from the earth. Unless he has a few 2,000-plus year old people hidden away somewhere, that obviously fell short of accuracy. 3. Jesus said his disciples would do greater things than he did once he left. Unless history has missed something, there wasn't any disciple who performed greater feats than the Bible myth describes Jesus accomplishing. 4. The Bible says where two or more are gathered together, whatsoever ye ask in my name shall be fulfilled. Nope, not true. Many have prayed for things in much larger groups that were not fulfilled. Some Bible apologists say it must be the Lord's will. Well, wouldn't his believers have some idea of what God's will would or should be? Is it not his will to heal a sick or dying child, or do many of the good things Christians have prayed for? This is perhaps the biggest false prophecy of all. 5. The Bible claims that all of its words are true/flawless and valuable for instruction (Proverbs 30:5 and 2 Timothy 3:16-17). However, that's simply not accurate. Plus, there have been misprints and misinterpretations through the centuries. One version, the famous "Adulterer's Bible," told people "Thou Shalt Commit Adultry." So obviously, if that version is right the others must be wrong, and vice versa. One could say it was merely a printer's mistake. If God couldn't stop a printer's error from being published in the Bible, what's to say he could prevent absolute nut jobs from making up other stuff through his word? 2
FeelHappy Posted January 8, 2013 Posted January 8, 2013 I remember when I was a Christian, while reading the bible when I got to Isaiah 66 my heart jumped for joy, here was God promising to create a nation of Israel in one day and a generation before me, God kept his word! Oh the wonder of the creator, I used to tell everyone about this, just knowing that this would bring them to god. But you see most scholars would agree that Isaiah 40-66 was written by someone other than the real Isaiah (chapters 1-39), someone who lived near the end of the Babylon Captivity (chapters 40-55) and someone else shortly after the return from Babylon (chapters 56-66). How do they know this, well there are textual clues and the style and vocabulary are radically different. Take for example Isaiah 45: This is what the Lord says to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold ofto subdue nations before him and to strip kings of their armor,to open doors before him so that gates will not be shut: Well who is this anointed one of God, this Cyrus, well its Cyrus the Great, the Assyrian conquer of Babylon. You see during chapters 40-55 you can see his rise to power, reread these sections with this knowledge, the Israelis were in Babylon captivity and this guy was starting to conquer the middle east. But here's the kicker, the nation of Israel has been born extremely rapidly not just in 1948, but way back in the 538 BCE also. Now reread Isaiah 66 with the knowledge that they were in fact born in one day, back in 538ish Cyrus decreed that Israel can return to their homeland (see Ezra 1). When you look at the book in the context of the times you'll see this "miracle" recorded after the events occurred, was referring to the return from Babylonian captivity not some far off future event 2500 years later. At best you can try to convince the reader that its a dual prophecy, but heck even given enough pages you're bound to get the occasional future event correct.
ExCBooster Posted January 8, 2013 Posted January 8, 2013 Is the Biblical prophesy true?? You could consult the I Ching about it... My point is: if you're inclined to believe the Bible, and people who interpret it (apparently stretching this one pretty hard), are you also inclined to believe some other culture's oracles? (Put it to the outsider test: would I even understand this, if I weren't from that cultural context that assumes it is true.) While I don't think predicting the future is so easy, some oracle systems like tarot or the I Ching, or even the odd flock of blackbirds, can help you get a glimpse into what your subconscious is up to, and let random results interact with spontaneous association to give you insight. As for myself, I am a legitimate outsider to this Bible prophesy thing (see profile) and I don't think it pans out any more than the second coming of Quetzalcoatl did. I think the prophesy interpreters WANT it to be the End of Days so badly, because it conforms to how they MUST see their world: falling apart at the seams in SIN, so they're Saved and anyone else is Not (keep the pressure on). Nothing shepherds the sheep like fear, after all: God FEARING people. Just my opinion, that's all: I think you can rest easy. You can also try cracking books open at random and pointing to pages with your eyes closed. Steamy, trashy, romance novels are great for this.
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