Planting Seeds

[Geezer]

When I was active on the Ex Church of Christ support site, with the passing of the years, I eventually came to the conclusion the bible wasn’t true in any literal or historic sense. A foundational belief of the Church of Christ is the literal inerrancy of scripture. Basically, the bible is accepted as a sort of divine instruction manual. In theory anyway, everything they think, say, do, and believe must be based on some particular scripture that is their authority from God. And this belief is quite often taken to levels of absurdity. A real life example of this is the denial of having car washes to raise money for the youth to go on evangelism trips. The reason for denying their request was based on there being no biblical authority for washing cars to raise money. And there are no examples of washing chariots either. So, the Elders determined such an event was unscriptural and therefore, by implication, sin.

 

Anyway my point being when I accepted the bible was a man made document I began challenging the bible’s authority and that quickly became a source of contention. I was verbally attacked, called names, and received some very unchristian PM’s. My status changed from being one of us to one of them.

 

I said I was only asking questions and that I was simply attempting to obtain information that would challenge the evidence I’d discovered. Early on that was probably true but that quickly changed and I became the one who was attempting to change minds or at least plant the seeds of doubt. When that was brought to my attention I denied that was my intent, but I knew in my heart that wasn’t true. I was absolutely attempting to educate, change minds, or at least plant seeds.

 

The evidence suggests Christians that come to this site are doing the same thing but are probably in denial about their true objectives. They say they just want to chat, and that is probably true, at least that is what they tell themselves, but they also want to plant seeds even if they deny that is their intent.   

 

It might be helpful if everyone was at least honest about their true intent. State your case and present your evidence and if you don't have any evidence you might want to consider quietly slipping out the back door to minimize your embarrassment.

 

The truth is there are only two reasons any of us would venture into hostile territory. We either want to plant seeds or we have developed doubts about our own beliefs. If the truth be brought to the light of day we want to change minds or we’re looking for information that might alleviate our own doubts about our beliefs, but we sure as hell aint’ just there to chat about the weather or exchange recipes.

[RipVanWinkle]

I think there is one more reason: Some christians would come here for the purpose of gathering evidence to report to fellow christians on how misinformed, bitter, unhappy, etc. atheists are. It would be easy to take something out of context (Something christians are very good at.) and make it appear to mean something it didn't. How many times have you heard sermons referencing observations of and comments by a non-christian which the preacher presents as "evidence" of the faulty thinking or of the sins of the non-christian. bill

[Geezer]

I think there is one more reason: Some christians would come here for the purpose of gathering evidence to report to fellow christians on how misinformed, bitter, unhappy, etc. atheists are.......

 

 

It’s possible that my 27 year involvement with Christian fundamental extremism has turned me into a skeptic or maybe even a cynic. It would never have occurred to me to engage an atheist to obtain evidence of their faulty thinking, but that is probably just me.  

 

I was at least wise enough to understand that atheist only deal in facts and that, as a Christian, I had precious few, if any, actually evidence or facts that supported my “beliefs” . I realized my beliefs were based on faith not facts and that I simply had nothing of substance to bring to the table when the discussion was focused on science and certifiable evidence.

 

I just accepted the reality that theology is about faith and secularism is about science. I could easily see that being nothing more than an apples and oranges discussion. I’ve noted in other posts that I was trained to proselyte other believers into the Church of Christ. My most important question in that scenario was, “Do you Mr/Mrs Prospect believe the bible is the inerrant, inspired, and infallible word of God? If they answered no I thanked them for their time and excused myself because if they didn’t believe the bible was literally true I knew I was wasting my time.

 

Christianity is about faith and beliefs not facts and evidence. Christians will argue endlessly about the various possible interpretations of scripture and why their traditions are superior to some other group, but it would be exceedingly rare for a Christian to knowingly enter into a discussion about the historical or chronological accuracy of scripture. Mostly because they are totally ignorant of the subject matter because believing the bible is the inerrant words of God is a faith issue not an intellectual one, but your thoughts may be right and it’s just that I’ve had a different life experience.  

[Geezer]

Any discussion with a Christian about their faith or beliefs generally becomes circular very quickly and at that point there is no practical reason to continue the discussion.

[Deva]

Christians believe that the only good way of living is to believe in Christ.  If you don't, then all your problems are as a result of your unbelief.  I am sure some of them come to this site and see us posting about problems we are having and then reporting back to their church - "See, go the Ex-C site, you will see the consequences of unbelief".  The idea of that makes my blood boil.

 

That's why I want to challenge them to come clean with their motives when they post here.  You will seldom get that.

[MultifariousBirdLady]

I am sure some of them come to this site and see us posting about problems we are having and then reporting back to their church - "See, go the Ex-C site, you will see the consequences of unbelief".  The idea of that makes my blood boil.

 

Something else that really irks me about this scenario is that as long as they are still Christians themselves, they will not see that Christianity's manipulative, guilt-inducing, fearmongering ideology is what causes much of it... what some who leave experience is the same as the fallout people can get from leaving any cult-like group.  Those remaining in the group perpetuate the mental trap responsible for the pain, but if anybody has trouble getting out of that trap, they blame the victim.

[Geezer]

A rationalists wants to base the discussion on logic, reason, and verifiable evidence whereas the theists  expresses their faith as beliefs which are generally based more on feelings than anything else. Faith, after all, is defined as belief without evidence.

 

Therefore, there is a tendency for the rationalists presentation of facts, evidence, and historical references to go in one ear of the believer and then proceed directly out there other without even slowing down. They often don’t even hear what the rationalist is saying.

 

For many believers facts and evidence are completely irrelevant to “what the bible says.”  So any attempt to educate or enlighten a believer is probably doomed from the start in most cases.

[Akheia]

Geezer, you always seem to have such thoughtful and cogent things to say. I enjoy your posts and learn so much from them. What you said about just not bothering with people who didn't accept the Bible especially struck me because that's how I felt about pagans. For some reason pagans seemed absolutely bulletproof against my insistence that the Bible was a great guide to life and totally inerrant. They thought that was about the funniest damned thing they'd ever heard, and they weren't shy about pointing out how ridiculous and, well, silly I was being about a belief with so much evidence stacked against it. I was reduced to "But I'm very, very sure of this!" and get "Well, I'm very, very sure of my religion too, and since neither of us has any proof of our religion, how about a nice cup of tea?" Mockery is like an antibiotic against religiosity.

 

Being an evangelical Christian was like selling multi-level marketing goods. You're always "on", always alert to sales opportunities, always quick to pick up on a potential convert. You can't do anything without having an eye on witnessing and making a spiritual sale. You can't just relax and be chilled out. I'd agree entirely that even when I thought to myself that I was just hanging out or whatever, I had an agenda, even if it was "show those poor heathens how much happier Christians are and plant seeds of doubt in their current life plans," a goal that backfired on me regularly and spectacularly--as it does on ex-C when a Christian shows up to do precisely that. It shames me now that I was so dishonest with both myself and those subjected to such disrespectful behavior, but it does make me view claims of "just wanting to learn" with extreme skepticism.

 

PS: Holy honey biscuits, the bit about car washes being sinful... what'd they think about cell phones? School buses? Vaccines? DVDs?

[Geezer]

 

 

PS: Holy honey biscuits, the bit about car washes being sinful... what'd they think about cell phones? School buses? Vaccines? DVDs?

 

 

Even hard core members of the church of Christ realize they can’t really follow the bible as literally as they claim to, so they came up with the doctrine of “necessary inference”. Basically that means that local elders (the grand poopha’s of the joint) by divine inspiration can reinterpret scripture to make it infer whatever they want so it appears to make sense and will address the situation that’s causing the problem.

 

I’ll give you some real life examples. Here are some examples of things that the bible doesn’t address but elders infer is okay: Building church buildings, installing air conditioning, installing phones systems, building parking lots, adding youth ministers, adding worship and song leaders in addition to hiring a local minister, having Wednesday & Sunday evening worship services. The elders have been divinely granted to infer such things are necessary.

 

You will love this one, and this is not a joke. This is for real. The church of Christ has another human created doctrine that is identified as “Silence of the Scriptures.” Just as the name implies it means some times when the bible is silent about something that silence must be interpreted as a prohibition. You can’t do it because the bible doesn’t address it and if you do it that’s sin that will condemn you to hell.

 

The bible doesn’t address the issue of instrumental music during worship. This silence is interpreted as prohibitive. No instrumental music is allowed during worship. Acapella singing is the only music allowed in the church of Christ based on the doctrine of silence of the scriptures. Playing instruments during worship is considered a class 1 felony sin and the offender will be dispatched directly to hell on the express elevator immediately after the final judgment and there will be no exceptions granted.

 

 

My prior car wash example would be based on silence of the scriptures. Explicit permission is not granted in scripture to raise funds for church sponsored events so doing so constitutes sin. “Examples” are also interpreted as commands. The bible implies but doesn’t explicitly say communion must be observed on Sunday only. But the book of Acts seems to offer an example of the first century church observing communion on Sunday so that example must be interpreted as a command or imperative that cannot be changed or altered in any way and any attempt to do so would be interpreted as sin.

 

I could have you rolling on the floor telling you about all the nutty stuff the church of Christ believes and teaches,  and there is no conformity among congregations. Every congregation is autonomous so what is okay in one congregation isn’t okay in the congregation across town. They are a really a hoot as long as you don’t take them seriously.  

[MultifariousBirdLady]

Geezer, my apologies I'd you've addressed this before, but are the Churches of Christ you're talking about the ones associated with the Boston Movement?

[Geezer]

Geezer, my apologies I'd you've addressed this before, but are the Churches of Christ you're talking about the ones associated with the Boston Movement?

 

 

No, but that movement came out of the c of c. The Boston Movement & The Crossroads Movement are not part of the traditional c of c. Both movements are absolute full blown cults and both of them are dangerous. They are both into absolute total control of their followers.

[Mike D]

The evidence suggests Christians that come to this site are doing the same thing but are probably in denial about their true objectives. They say they just want to chat, and that is probably true, at least that is what they tell themselves, but they also want to plant seeds even if they deny that is their intent. 

 

The big difference between planting seeds on a Christian site vs. here, is that we've already considered all the seeds (seeds of belief, seeds of doubt, seeds of unbelief, etc).  Plus, unlike Christian sites we don't ban people that have a different opinion or viewpoint from us. 

 

Pretty much any Christian coming here to "plant seeds" will likely have his/her head handed to them on a platter, after a good ass kicking from us.  Nothing like stirring up a hornets nest and seeing what happens....

[NeverAgainV]

I’ll give you some real life examples. Here are some examples of things that the bible doesn’t address but elders infer is okay: Building church buildings, installing air conditioning, installing phones systems, building parking lots, adding youth ministers, adding worship and song leaders in addition to hiring a local minister, having Wednesday & Sunday evening worship services. The elders have been divinely granted to infer such things are necessary.

 

You will love this one, and this is not a joke. This is for real. The church of Christ has another human created doctrine that is identified as “Silence of the Scriptures.” Just as the name implies it means some times when the bible is silent about something that silence must be interpreted as a prohibition. You can’t do it because the bible doesn’t address it and if you do it that’s sin that will condemn you to hell.

 

The bible doesn’t address the issue of instrumental music during worship. This silence is interpreted as prohibitive. No instrumental music is allowed during worship. Acapella singing is the only music allowed in the church of Christ based on the doctrine of silence of the scriptures. Playing instruments during worship is considered a class 1 felony sin and the offender will be dispatched directly to hell on the express elevator immediately after the final judgment and there will be no exceptions granted.

....

I think the group I left was as wacky as the c of c!! We had a doctrine exactly like that called "argument from silence" meaning if it aint in the bible, we don't do it or believe it. But of course I didn't see cassette tape ministries or CD or DVD ministries in the bible, yet the pastor did it. We also did not use musical instruments in the service, only acappella because musical instruments aint in the bible...yet in the OT king David uses them...but we weren't allowed & other churches that did that were not true churches & were deceived! 

What became apparent over time was the rule from silence was randomly enforced & usually bent if it BENEFITED the pastor, his ministry, his family or his nearest & dearest in the core. He was always able to find a bible verse to defend HIS way of doing things, but never allowed others that option.

 

So Geezer, did the C of C have this too like the group I left practices, it's called "godly deception" meaning it's A-OK to LIE, use fabrications if it will benefit "the kindgom of gawd" = the pastor & the pastor's church.

Oh shit...that one was like, wow! I realized that these people would use any means possible to protect their delusion. fucking scary.

[Geezer]

 

I’ll give you some real life examples. Here are some examples of things that the bible doesn’t address but elders infer is okay: Building church buildings, installing air conditioning, installing phones systems, building parking lots, adding youth ministers, adding worship and song leaders in addition to hiring a local minister, having Wednesday & Sunday evening worship services. The elders have been divinely granted to infer such things are necessary.

 

You will love this one, and this is not a joke. This is for real. The church of Christ has another human created doctrine that is identified as “Silence of the Scriptures.” Just as the name implies it means some times when the bible is silent about something that silence must be interpreted as a prohibition. You can’t do it because the bible doesn’t address it and if you do it that’s sin that will condemn you to hell.

 

The bible doesn’t address the issue of instrumental music during worship. This silence is interpreted as prohibitive. No instrumental music is allowed during worship. Acapella singing is the only music allowed in the church of Christ based on the doctrine of silence of the scriptures. Playing instruments during worship is considered a class 1 felony sin and the offender will be dispatched directly to hell on the express elevator immediately after the final judgment and there will be no exceptions granted.

....

I think the group I left was as wacky as the c of c!! We had a doctrine exactly like that called "argument from silence" meaning if it aint in the bible, we don't do it or believe it. But of course I didn't see cassette tape ministries or CD or DVD ministries in the bible, yet the pastor did it. We also did not use musical instruments in the service, only acappella because musical instruments aint in the bible...yet in the OT king David uses them...but we weren't allowed & other churches that did that were not true churches & were deceived!

What became apparent over time was the rule from silence was randomly enforced & usually bent if it BENEFITED the pastor, his ministry, his family or his nearest & dearest in the core. He was always able to find a bible verse to defend HIS way of doing things, but never allowed others that option.

 

So Geezer, did the C of C have this too like the group I left practices, it's called "godly deception" meaning it's A-OK to LIE, use fabrications if it will benefit "the kindgom of gawd" = the pastor & the pastor's church.

Oh shit...that one was like, wow! I realized that these people would use any means possible to protect their delusion. fucking scary.

 

 

"godly deception?  Nope, we didn't have anything like that. Any and all lying would get you a ticket on the express elevator to hell. I was certain the Church of Christ had to be one of the wackiest groups in the country, but apparently not. There are others, it would seem, that are at least their equal….

 

Would you mind telling me which group you were a member of? PM me if you prefer.

[NeverAgainV]

I will PM you Geezer.

[RipVanWinkle]

Deva: The reasons Xtians report back that  this site shows how bad we Xtrians are is they cannot tolerate an honest argument. I don't visit  Xtian's websites, but I'll bet dollars to donuts that their posts are nothing more than parroting back what they have been told is true by their church leaders.  I;ll bet there is little honest debate, if any.    bill

[Ross]

When it comes to the leadership of the church I think of Orwells Animal Farm. Some pigs are more equal that other pigs. I have known so truly humble church leaders but most on the whole are self serving bigots.