Email From My Former Pastor

[mymistake]

This evening our session will be discussing the next step of church discipline, and I know you are not surprised by this. But please know that if you ever begin to honestly "doubt" your doubts and skepticism, and if you ever begin to "question" your disbelief in Christ, we are here for you ... whether a week from now, or twenty years from now. As you know, the whole goal of church discipline is restoration to fellowship with Christ and the church. 

 

Your Humble Servant,

 

 

Yep. They're done with me. Maybe after I get that excommunication letter I'll have a better sense of closure. Perhaps I'll get it framed and hang it in my office.

 

It's funny how he's retreated to the "first century person and work of Jesus Christ, the witness of the apostles, and their first century written testimony" and then goes on to place the burden of proof on those who would seek to "prove" conclusively that Jesus never existed or was never raised from the dead, like that would actually change his mind. He's speaking like an evidentialist who subscribes to natural theology when all along he's claimed the moniker of presuppositionalist.

 

You can only move the goalposts so often before you run out of real estate.

 

The way his letter ended got me laughing.  If you ever honestly doubt your doubt then he will help you.  I guess doubting the religion isn't honest but doubting the doubt of religion is an honest doubt.

[Thought2Much]

The way his letter ended got me laughing.  If you ever honestly doubt your doubt then he will help you.  I guess doubting the religion isn't honest but doubting the doubt of religion is an honest doubt.

 

I doubt that.

[Akheia]

I doubt you doubt it!

 

But for reals, H.A., get that fucker framed. Jose's made me suddenly want a Catholic excommunication certificate, but I'm about 99% sure it'd get back to my favorite aunt, who is a nun, and there'd be drama. Not sure how I want to deal with that.

[Thought2Much]

The fact that you can get an excommunication letter signed by the Pope almost makes me want to join the Catholic church just so I can be excommunicated.

[Akheia]

Yeah, but it'd be signed by Emperor Palpatine, not the cool John Paul Whatever.

[Rek99]

Hey H.A., thanks for sharing.  I know it must be incredibly difficult for you to see these words from someone that you spent so much of your life with.  While I haven't officially received any letter saying I was excommunicated, I have lost friends that I would otherwise love to be around in a non-church setting.

 

Remember the passage in the bible where someone didn't believe Jesus' claims and he gave up, went home, and sent them a letter saying he doesn't want to play anymore?  Neither do I, in fact it was the opposite, but today's Christians just want to plug their ears, close their eyes and go with the flow. 

 

Again, my condolences on losing a good chunk of your friends.  I know it's better to live in reality, but it doesn't make losing friends any easier.

[RipVanWinkle]

HymenaeusAlexandeer: What?? A pastor doesn't have the time to save your soul? What does he think is more important? He obviously doesn't take his faith seriously if he will stand by and let you go to hell.

He says he and his wife love you? What a crock of shit. He loves you but won't spend whatever time is

necessary to set you straight with god? I'm sure he would say that he recognized that nothing could make you change your mind. Is he so certain that he can read your mind that that he is willing to let you go

to hell rather than risk wasting his precious time? I guess it is more profitable to spend his time

elsewhere. What an ass.

bill

[Jose]

I doubt you doubt it!

 

But for reals, H.A., get that fucker framed. Jose's made me suddenly want a Catholic excommunication certificate, but I'm about 99% sure it'd get back to my favorite aunt, who is a nun, and there'd be drama. Not sure how I want to deal with that.

 

 

Yeah, there's a comprehensive list somewhere of everyone who has been excommunicated. I don't qualify to be on the awesome list of people who got to be killed as heretics or even the ones who have been laicized because the nature of my apostasy was considered "excommunicated upon commission (of the sin)," specifically blasphemy against the Holy Spirit by paying for an abortion.

 

So the records of my first sacraments (baptism, communion, confession, confirmation) have been noted with the word "Anathema," and I can never be reconciled with the church. Unlike, you know, someone who kills a cardinal or bishop, or even a schismatic like Martin Luther.

[mymistake]

 

I doubt you doubt it!

 

But for reals, H.A., get that fucker framed. Jose's made me suddenly want a Catholic excommunication certificate, but I'm about 99% sure it'd get back to my favorite aunt, who is a nun, and there'd be drama. Not sure how I want to deal with that.

 

 

Yeah, there's a comprehensive list somewhere of everyone who has been excommunicated. I don't qualify to be on the awesome list of people who got to be killed as heretics or even the ones who have been laicized because the nature of my apostasy was considered "excommunicated upon commission (of the sin)," specifically blasphemy against the Holy Spirit by paying for an abortion.

 

So the records of my first sacraments (baptism, communion, confession, confirmation) have been noted with the word "Anathema," and I can never be reconciled with the church. Unlike, you know, someone who kills a cardinal or bishop, or even a schismatic like Martin Luther.

 

 

But . . . the Holy Spirit has performed millions of abortions.

[Jose]

Yeah, but god reserves the right to kill babies for himself. 

 

If a baby is miscarried or stillborn, it's god's will. If I pay for it to be killed because I wanted to continue having sex with this particular girl and she demanded that I pay for the abortion, then I'm anathema.

 

Makes perfect sense.

[Akheia]

Suddenly thinking of that book "unChristian"... about how the modern Christian church is completely alienating society. I bet that pastor would feel his ears burning to read it!

[NeverAgainV]

Here is what I read:

 

"I really want to help you out! So much so that I'm going to send over a ton of material and we will discuss it together. I care!"

 

"Oh, you have actual questions? I don't have a prepared response to those questions. Some of them would take a lot of time for me to find an answer to. No, no, I said you read these books. I know what to say after you read them."

 

"Whoa, you actually read them?! Well....ok.....but wait, they didn't convince you? Well, I guess I just have god and you don't. See ya!"

 

Hell at least he cared enough to say something. 4 years serving as a youth volunteer, then a youth leader and a Sunday School teacher, my husband spending about 7 years playing in the worship band and you know what I got back from my pastor when I sent my "see ya later" email?

 

Nothing.

 

Last conversation I had w/ my expastor ended with him slamming the phone down on my ear as I was wishing him godspeed. ah the memories....

[NeverAgainV]

 

Yep. They're done with me. Maybe after I get that excommunication letter I'll have a better sense of closure. Perhaps I'll get it framed and hang it in my office.

 

It's funny how he's retreated to the "first century person and work of Jesus Christ, the witness of the apostles, and their first century written testimony" and then goes on to place the burden of proof on those who would seek to "prove" conclusively that Jesus never existed or was never raised from the dead, like that would actually change his mind. He's speaking like an evidentialist who subscribes to natural theology when all along he's claimed the moniker of presuppositionalist.

 

You can only move the goalposts so often before you run out of real estate.

(((Hugs))) I hate church discipline & excommunication...it's just the icing of the cake of religious cruelty. You are amazing with how you dealt with your expastor. I hope that you will be allright as it does hurt to be shunned

by people who you thought really cared about you...but in reality all it took for them to turn their backs on you was for you to THINK. This is why I hate religion so much....it's just terrible.

Again, you amaze me with your patience & willingness to engage them. Keep moving forward because you might grieve & get angry, but it does get better.

 

I am now kind of wishing that I didn't tear my excommunication letter to shreds...hell, the pastor had conveniently forgot to sign it....I don't think it was an oversight though- that snake.

[HymenaeusAlexander]

I would have loved to have gotten even that much correspondence from the Catholic church.

 

I was told by the Archbishop that my doubts didn't matter since I'm excommunicæ latæ setentiæ and therefore anathema and going to hell no matter what I believe or don't believe.

 

I did frame my excommunication, but I lost it when I broke it off with my insane ex. It was pretty cool. Signed by the Pope John Paul II and everything.

That is awesome. And it was JP2? That’s even better. Mine will probably not even bear a single signature as they like to pretend to act as a unified governing body.

 

H.A., I know this must be terribly hard to see. You loved and trusted this person and he's basically shat on both your love and your trust. Yes, he'll be there for you if you re-convert, but until then, fuck off and stop bothering him with your silly ration and evidence. Ugh! Talk about "being that guy," huh?

I don’t feel slighted anymore. I really think he’s just masking his fear. He started off all gung ho, but got really shook up after a phone convo we had wherein I told him one of the reasons I was agreeing to dialogue with him was to get him to reconsider some of his views. After that he went around telling everyone I was out to bring down his ministry. As if. Since then he’s done nothing but backpedal into standard Christian clichés and assert he’s never doubted.

 

I just wanted to give you kudos. I think you handled this with integrity and class. Also, I've read a bunch of your posts (from your extimony and elsewhere) and have found them very enlightening. It's a pleasure to have you here.

 

(And by the way, I think you forgot to take your wife's name out of one of the letters. XD)

Thanks for the compliments…and the heads up

 

 

This evening our session will be discussing the next step of church discipline, and I know you are not surprised by this. But please know that if you ever begin to honestly "doubt" your doubts and skepticism, and if you ever begin to "question" your disbelief in Christ, we are here for you ... whether a week from now, or twenty years from now. As you know, the whole goal of church discipline is restoration to fellowship with Christ and the church. 

 

Your Humble Servant,

 

 

Yep. They're done with me. Maybe after I get that excommunication letter I'll have a better sense of closure. Perhaps I'll get it framed and hang it in my office.

 

It's funny how he's retreated to the "first century person and work of Jesus Christ, the witness of the apostles, and their first century written testimony" and then goes on to place the burden of proof on those who would seek to "prove" conclusively that Jesus never existed or was never raised from the dead, like that would actually change his mind. He's speaking like an evidentialist who subscribes to natural theology when all along he's claimed the moniker of presuppositionalist.

 

You can only move the goalposts so often before you run out of real estate.

 

The way his letter ended got me laughing.  If you ever honestly doubt your doubt then he will help you.  I guess doubting the religion isn't honest but doubting the doubt of religion is an honest doubt.

 

Several things were amusing to me: his robbing 1 John 2:19 of all semantic meaning and purpose in order to explain his accusations and insinuations, his passive/aggressive “our hearts are breaking” and “we continue to pray” bullshit, his pathetic insistence that he would need proof that the resurrection never happened as if supernatural claims somehow warrant the null hypothesis.

 

Hey H.A., thanks for sharing.  I know it must be incredibly difficult for you to see these words from someone that you spent so much of your life with.  While I haven't officially received any letter saying I was excommunicated, I have lost friends that I would otherwise love to be around in a non-church setting.

 

Remember the passage in the bible where someone didn't believe Jesus' claims and he gave up, went home, and sent them a letter saying he doesn't want to play anymore?  Neither do I, in fact it was the opposite, but today's Christians just want to plug their ears, close their eyes and go with the flow. 

 

Again, my condolences on losing a good chunk of your friends.  I know it's better to live in reality, but it doesn't make losing friends any easier.

It is very difficult at this stage. I do think there is plenty of scripture to support the notion that apostates are vile and wicked and should be regarded as traitors who should be purged and shunned. I was really curious how they would go about interpreting those passages. I don’t think they have a firmly established approach because I would guess that most instances of apostasy don’t go down this way.

 

HymenaeusAlexandeer: What?? A pastor doesn't have the time to save your soul? What does he think is more important? He obviously doesn't take his faith seriously if he will stand by and let you go to hell.

He says he and his wife love you? What a crock of shit. He loves you but won't spend whatever time is

necessary to set you straight with god? I'm sure he would say that he recognized that nothing could make you change your mind. Is he so certain that he can read your mind that that he is willing to let you go

to hell rather than risk wasting his precious time? I guess it is more profitable to spend his time

elsewhere. What an ass.

bill

Well, it does fit with his theology. I just wish he’d have done this earlier and saved me the trouble of reading a 300 page book on canon formation and typing up a response to no end. That’s what I’m irritated about now. He got me.

 

 

 

Yep. They're done with me. Maybe after I get that excommunication letter I'll have a better sense of closure. Perhaps I'll get it framed and hang it in my office.

 

It's funny how he's retreated to the "first century person and work of Jesus Christ, the witness of the apostles, and their first century written testimony" and then goes on to place the burden of proof on those who would seek to "prove" conclusively that Jesus never existed or was never raised from the dead, like that would actually change his mind. He's speaking like an evidentialist who subscribes to natural theology when all along he's claimed the moniker of presuppositionalist.

 

You can only move the goalposts so often before you run out of real estate.

(((Hugs))) I hate church discipline & excommunication...it's just the icing of the cake of religious cruelty. You are amazing with how you dealt with your expastor. I hope that you will be allright as it does hurt to be shunned

by people who you thought really cared about you...but in reality all it took for them to turn their backs on you was for you to THINK. This is why I hate religion so much....it's just terrible.

Again, you amaze me with your patience & willingness to engage them. Keep moving forward because you might grieve & get angry, but it does get better.

 

I am now kind of wishing that I didn't tear my excommunication letter to shreds...hell, the pastor had conveniently forgot to sign it....I don't think it was an oversight though- that snake.

 

Thanks. I’m still in the hurt and angry phase right now, so it’s been very difficult to be patient and polite. My original drafts of these emails had a lot more bite to them, but my wife helped me edit them down to the level of civility.

[Joshpantera]

Good stuff. Keep'em coming.

I think it does a lot of good to have these type of confrontations and challenges with the clergy. It reveals just what kind of person they really are, where they're at mentally, their limitations, and their ignorance. You've cracked into the Bible in such a way that there is no good answer coming from apologetics. Especially not from the angle of inerrancy based apologetics most of all.
 

And it's good for you to see how your new views and realizations can hold their own in a confrontation where things are improvisational and anything can come at you at any time. His punch packed full of logical fallacies fell flat! Not very encouraging in terms of truth...

[Akheia]

I don't think there's really a way for a believer to defend Christianity from a standpoint of inerrancy or superiority over all other religions. I've never seen that mindset successfully handle challenges like H.A.'s thrown here. The only way it seems to me that it can really survive close scrutiny is to take a very liberal tack. But then it loses a lot of its urgency. It's hard to get worked up over investing in its rather antiquated ideas when there isn't a hell to worry about getting sent to for not thusly investing. So bluster and fallcies it is! Ahoy!

[RachelSkates]

He copped out. Xers have to realize that nonChristians are not stpid anymore. Back in the day when no one was even allowed to read the Bible, the Church had the advantage. Not now. Phhhhhhhhh. They need to change their tactic instead of thinking nonChristians are stupid and just want to sin all day. Shhesh.

[owen652]

At least you got a response; after 15 years of service in many different ministries I got exactly nothing from ANYONE when I left. Not so much as a phone call or an email asking where I was. Tbh i'm still pissed off at this, even after five years. This makes me wonder if I should write to my pastor, even if only for the catharsis.

[Ross]

At least you got a response; after 15 years of service in many different ministries I got exactly nothing from ANYONE when I left. Not so much as a phone call or an email asking where I was. Tbh i'm still pissed off at this, even after five years. This makes me wonder if I should write to my pastor, even if only for the catharsis.

I assume you were a member of the church as well? With voting rights when it came to matters that needed voting on? If so you could still b listed as one.

[owen652]

^^ interesting.. Verrrrrrry interesting.hadnt thought of that

[RedStar]

He started off all gung ho, but got really shook up after a phone convo we had wherein I told him one of the reasons I was agreeing to dialogue with him was to get him to reconsider some of his views. After that he went around telling everyone I was out to bring down his ministry. As if. Since then he’s done nothing but backpedal into standard Christian clichés and assert he’s never doubted.

 

He seriously thinks you're trying to take down his ministry because you asked him some tough questions to make him think about what he believes? What an arrogant son of a bitch! There's a side of paranoia in there too...

[HymenaeusAlexander]

 

He started off all gung ho, but got really shook up after a phone convo we had wherein I told him one of the reasons I was agreeing to dialogue with him was to get him to reconsider some of his views. After that he went around telling everyone I was out to bring down his ministry. As if. Since then he’s done nothing but backpedal into standard Christian clichés and assert he’s never doubted.

He seriously thinks you're trying to take down his ministry because you asked him some tough questions to make him think about what he believes? What an arrogant son of a bitch! There's a side of paranoia in there too...

 

I suspect it may have had a tactical element to it as well. Remember I was working with youth, so suspicions that I might have been corrupting them would have been natural. Regardless of the motives, his accusation raised the threat level for the larger group by validating their fears and that quickly put them into circle-the-wagons mode. I have reason to suspect that suggestions like demon possession were bandied about. Whatever was said, the net affect was that it likely ruined any chances I would’ve had of having a relationship with any of them in the future or ever getting a chance to at least explain myself to them without that explanation first being filtered through the pastor. Basically, he poisoned the well. It’s probably why I’ve only heard from one person so far and that was pretty much to tell me our friendship, as we had known it, was over.

[Ravenstar]

Wow... the whole 'christian love' thing just sinks deeper and deeper into total hypocritical baloney...

 

I haven't been vocal about my atheism - though I was about my paganism... I almost want to become more 'out there' just to see the reactions and see if it's different. (a sort of experiment I guess)

 

I feel really bad for all of you who have been so badly treated by your so-called friends in the church. They suck!

[waitingongod]

I also would love to see the reactions if I threw the atheist word in my family.  I could get away with being pantheist, but I think atheist would cause some problems.

[HymenaeusAlexander]

I also would love to see the reactions if I threw the atheist word in my family.  I could get away with being pantheist, but I think atheist would cause some problems.