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Goodbye Jesus

Email From My Former Pastor


HymenaeusAlexander

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Wow Joe, it must be nice to be so special.  Everyone is wrong but you and the rest of the "elect". I can't be too hard on you though, if you believe everyone will be saved in the end. That is universalism and I sort of like that.

 

It is not just me who believes that Christ is truly the Savior of the world: 

 

1Tim 2:3-6  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;  who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;  Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

 

The "churches" have a real problem with this scripture and others like it.  Their solution is to ignore it because they can't understand how it can be true.

Joe

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JoeinArkansas, if the only people "saved" are Christ's "elect," then wouldn't it be safe to say that anyone here at Ex-C isn't part of that "elect?" If so, why bother talking to anyone here? They're not now, nor will they ever be, part of the "elect."

 

Plus, if everyone is getting "saved" at some point regardless of what they believe now, why should anyone give a shit about it in this lifetime? If I'm going to heaven anyway, what difference does it make if I believe in your mythology or anything else?

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HAHAHAHAHAHA

 

Yeah, we don't know who god is. But you do! And by wild coincidence you're the one who's doing it right! How lucky you are to have chanced into the one true way of doing it when 30,000 other denominations got it wrong! Tell us again, O White Man, who this messiah of yours is. We've never heard of him or of your "spiritual but not religious" horseshit. You're the Magic Christian who's going to charge in and make it all better for us! Yay! You're the one! You're the one single person who's thought of a way to make that misogynistic, slavery-advocating, genocidal tribal little godling neutralized and nice-ified! Yup, you've definitely shown that we're all wrong. Good work there.

 

(You do realize that HymenaeusAlexander is about fifty times more knowledgeable than you are about your source book, right? And that most of us used to think just like you do but realized it was totally fake, right? Right now you'd have a better chance of convincing me that I'm really a unicorn-riding space princess than of there being a Christian god of any sort.)

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I am not the only one who has been blessed by God and given eyes that can see and ears that can hear.  You probably have never met one of us because those who truly seek to follow Christ are not part of any organized church. 

 

What should we call all those Christians who do not Truly seek to follow Christ?

 

For the most part, we do not know each other.  Our fellowship is with Christ and the One who sent Him.  I have not come to this forum to "convert" anyone.  In fact, my purpose is to help those ex-christians who still have a measure of faith but have left the churches for one reason or another.

 

By entertaining them?

 

They know that there is something wrong with the churches and her doctrines but don't know where to find the truth anymore.  

 

Finding truth is easy.  Apply logic to the evidence and follow that wherever it leads.

 

For that type of person, I can show them the true Christ if they have not given up seeking to know Him.

 

But if they don't try hard enough then your magic won't work?

 

I am not here for anyone else because there is nothing I can give them that they might accept.

 

We would accept evidence.  I take it that you are fresh out. 

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Wow Joe, it must be nice to be so special.  Everyone is wrong but you and the rest of the "elect". I can't be too hard on you though, if you believe everyone will be saved in the end. That is universalism and I sort of like that.

 

It is not just me who believes that Christ is truly the Savior of the world: 

 

1Tim 2:3-6  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;  who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;  Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

 

The "churches" have a real problem with this scripture and others like it.  Their solution is to ignore it because they can't understand how it can be true.

Joe

 

I am sure it isn't just you who believes in Jesus, Joe. 

 

I do take issue with your dubious term "savior."  Savior from what?  This is my real problem with Christianity. 

 

That you think everyone will be saved in the end is more charitable in my mind than many forms of orthodox Christianity, but that doesn't mean I think Jesus is my savior or that this is at all a legitimate way of thinking about the world.

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Again, welcome to the board. I really do hope you’ll stick around. I apologize if I came off a bit snarkey, but in truth your post kind of pissed me off a little. I'm sure you meant well, but it probably wasn't the best way to introduce yourself to the board. But hey, we're all about second chances here at Ex-C. Right, guys? Guys?

I not sure why my comments "pissed you off".  That was not my intention.  Since you don't believe that the scriptures are inspired, I'm amazed you ever attended a "church" to begin with.  Could it be that when you first started going to church you believed they were inspired?   I know many people who start off that way and after a time in the church, they can see the folly of the church doctrines and can't see from scripture anything but a mess of contradictions. 

 

Since you took the time to give me a detailed response, I will spend a few minutes and give you a simple example of how the truth of the scriptures is concealed:

 

Luke 22:36-38  Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.  For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.  And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

 

Earlier in scripture Christ said to love your enemies and to do good to them.  It appears now that He is contradicting Himself by telling his apostles to carry a sword.  But there is no contradiction here.  Christ said that his words are "spirit".  EVERYTHING He taught must be spiritually understood.  Later in the writings of Paul, we find out that the Word of God is symbolized by the sword and that we are to have two or three witnesses to prove a truth.  Here in Luke ch. 22, Christ was not telling his apostles to literally carry a sword.  He was telling them to carry with them the Word of God and that a double witness of scripture is sufficient to prove a truth.  I have met quite a few "christians" in the harlot church who say that Luke 22:36-38 is proof that Christ okays our right to self defense.  That is not true.  We are to NEVER return evil for evil.  Love is the only response to evil and that is why scripture says that God is love.  If you truly know Him, you will truly know love - not the love of man which says its okay to harm someone as long as you have a good enough reason. 

 

Hopefully now, you can see the confusion that Luke 22:36-38 can cause when misunderstood.  Now multiply that by the entire bible (along with many verses being poorly translated) and what you have is a tangled self-conflicting mess.  We are told by scripture that we are to study line by line, precept upon precept and that the sum of God's Word is truth.  Even all the historical events from the Old Testament along with all the acts of Christ themselves have spiritual meaning for those with spiritual vision to understand.  If you see only the literal meaning of scripture, you will never know the truth of scripture.  What you end up with is 2000 different church denominations who all believe that they are correct.  It is the blind leading the blind.  To know Christ though His Word takes years of study even after Christ has given you the ability to understand it.  You must search for Him as one who is seaching for "hidden treasures". 

 

Joe

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Good point, Deva. Ultimately I disagree with the central premise of even the most progressive Christian thinkers: that I'm broken and need saving. I don't think that, and there's no evidence of it, so I'd rather go with a more affirming faith system, thanks.

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JoeinArkansas, if the only people "saved" are Christ's "elect," then wouldn't it be safe to say that anyone here at Ex-C isn't part of that "elect?" If so, why bother talking to anyone here? They're not now, nor will they ever be, part of the "elect."

 

Plus, if everyone is getting "saved" at some point regardless of what they believe now, why should anyone give a shit about it in this lifetime? If I'm going to heaven anyway, what difference does it make if I believe in your mythology or anything else?

You are not going to heaven ANYway.  There is only one way and that is to be "in Christ".  Someday (probably in the final age), God will cause you to seek Him out and find Him.  At the time of Christ's choosing, He will reveal Himself to you and show you the Way. 

 

It is true that there may not be any of God's Elect in this forum but my calling is to find and show them the true Christ.  God knows who they are but I don't.  I must search for them.  If the Lord has made them ready to receive my words, then they will understand and believe them.  If not, I will be rejected.  But it is not me who they are rejecting, it is Christ.  But Christ forgives them because He knows that "they know not what they do".  Eventually, Christ will draw all mankind to Himself but it is His plan to draw only His true church in this present age.  But in "due time", all mankind will be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth". 

 

Joe

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Joe, I've been down the road of "we've got the bible truth & all those others are doing the devil's bidding...." NONSENSE for way too long.

 

You know you should look into it yourself & you might be able to free yourself from the vice grip of that hurtful & damaging cult. I do mean that because I was exactly where you are right now & it was a prison.

I hope someday that you can look outside of the religious box you are in because there is true freedom outside of toxic religion.

Maybe if you read with an open mind around here you actually might truly learn a few things.


Those peddlers of "oh, we don't have religion but we have the truthtm are the ones that if there is a "God" will have a hell of a lot of answering to do, because if you ask me folks that peddle what you are peddling are not making the world a better place. Oh....they make it better for the religious LEADERS by feathering their nests, they get themselves a following of people who pay them $$$ & give them homage every sunday with the "what a great sermon pastor!!"...a whole lot of ego boosting & narcissistic supply for the leaders. I'll NEVER go back.

 

Peddling bible religion is a great gig here in the ole US of A...lots of bucks the man of god makes...lots of lauding the mog, lots of people who follow & give their hard earned $$$ to someone who makes their living

taking ADVANTAGE of the superstitions & gullibility of other human beings.

 

I've read the bible & studied it and guess what....reading that book is what made me realize that the bible is no holy word of any good god. It's blasphemous of anything that is good & it causes good people to

do terrible things. I know what you & people who think like you believe about me & others who reject your religion.  I've been condemned to hell, called an "enemy of god" & all other sorts of nastiness that I've had hurled at me by believers because I have chosen to actually question that religion. I don't care what people who think like you do believe about me. As far as bible-god goes, I AM his enemy & I will be his enemy because bible god is a horrific fantasy creation of men who had nothing better to do except to try to CONTROL others & make themselves judges over other people. They've cause a LOT of damage & I for one refuse to be held hostage by those fear tactics anymore.

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Joe, I have a handful of questions...

 

1. How did you come by this special knowledge of Christ?

 

2. Please explain the passage from Genesis 4: 2-5  in the context of your beliefs about Elect vs. Non-Elect.

 

3. Are you beliefs based either wholly or partially on the passage from Romans 11: 5-7?

 

4. Wouldn't there be a zero percent chance that you could convert anyone given the limitations imposed on you by god as written in John 6:37 and 6:44?

 

5. Do you believe that god will rapture his elect?

 

 

 

As an aside, I can totally see Akheia as a unicorn-riding space princess.

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You are not going to heaven ANYway.  There is only one way and that is to be "in Christ".  Someday (probably in the final age), God will cause you to seek Him out and find Him.  At the time of Christ's choosing, He will reveal Himself to you and show you the Way. 

 

It is true that there may not be any of God's Elect in this forum but my calling is to find and show them the true Christ.  God knows who they are but I don't.  I must search for them.  If the Lord has made them ready to receive my words, then they will understand and believe them.  If not, I will be rejected.  But it is not me who they are rejecting, it is Christ.  But Christ forgives them because He knows that "they know not what they do".  Eventually, Christ will draw all mankind to Himself but it is His plan to draw only His true church in this present age.  But in "due time", all mankind will be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth". 

 

Joe

 

Why can't your lazy-ass god actually do everyone a favor and tell you who is and isn't part of his chosen elect, so that you can better focus your time and energy, and so that the people who will never believe don't have to hear it? Why does he have you run around jabbering to everyone in an attempt to reach the few who he's already chosen? Your god doesn't sound too terribly bright.

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I not sure why my comments "pissed you off". 

 

That is because you do not realize that you are a snake oil salesman.  If you knew the truth about your product then you would drop it like a disease.  That is what Christianity is - an illness of the mind.

 

 

But there is no contradiction here.  Christ said that his words are "spirit".  EVERYTHING He taught must be spiritually understood.  Later in the writings of Paul, we find out that the Word of God is symbolized by the sword and that we are to have two or three witnesses to prove a truth.

 

Of course there is contradiction.  Spiritual does not exist and Paul's writings came before the gospels were written.  You don't know the first thing about the Bible.  Paul invented Jesus Christ.

 

 

You are not going to heaven ANYway.

 

And neither are you.  Nobody is going to heaven.  There is no such thing as heaven.  When you die your imaginaiton will die with you.

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Oh, and by the way, JoeinArkansas, your proselytizing anywhere but in The Lion's Den section of this forum is against the board rules. Why didn't your god tell you that? Not that people who hear voices in their heads ever seem to care about rules, so you probably think this doesn't apply to you.

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@ joe from Arkansas.  I'm new here myself. I can remember as a teen when I bought into all the things you are saying and read tracts and learned how to recruit (witness to unbelievers), however I have ears and eyes and moreover a discerning mind and; long ago i became suspect of things that made no sense. Interpreting the bible as literal is one of those nonsensical things.

 

Re-converting those of us on this forum is an exercize in futility, just as much as any of us de-converting you would be. We are looking for logic and reasoning, not evidence from a mythical work and until that type of proof is offered, no one will change his or her mind. The type of proof ,of course, is not possible for the bible, especially when you consider the other myths and religions Christianity borrowed from.

Take Care!

TBM

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JoeinArkansas: I don't believe you are lying to us in  the sense that you really do believe what your are saying. I did too before I deconverted. So do Muslims, Mormons, Hinduism and every other religion existing now and throughout history. Belief does not magically become the truth because you are sincere, does it? What actual objective research did you do as to Christianity before being "saved"?

Have you ever read Christian history written by a historian other than a Christian? Have you read Bible criticism written by real scholars as opposed to those whose goal was at all times to prove Christianity? Do you know the scholars' (except those already committed to Christianity) reasons for their conclusion that the Bible is not the inspired word of God? Did you ever read the Bible without assuming or believing that it is the inspired Word of God? Do you interpret the Bible with without a presumption that it is absolutely true? How did you come to the conclusion that the Bible is 100% true? Have you ever read any scholar's book  criticizing  Christianity? Do you believe that you would commit a sin if you read and analyzed the Bible with honest objectivity, presuming neither that it is true nor false?

 

You want to argue for Christianity? Then get an objective education on the arguments by non-christians.    bill

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Welcome Joe! from Arkansas... to our little corner of the net.

 

I suggest you do a little reading, maybe in the extimonies before you do any serious challenging here. Just trying to give you a heads up. Here's a hint... most people here are EX-christians of many stripes, yup, for realzies. Most are well-versed in the Bible, bible criticism, history, apologetics and logic.

 

Here's another hint... if you have something truly earth-shaking to share, and the evidence to back it up (warm fuzzies and personal testimonies don't count as evidence) we are all ears.

 

P.S. Don't forget to read the rules though... there are special places here for certain subjects and approaches.

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WELL ain't this fuckin' disappointing.

 

Why the hell can't we get Christians who actually know their shit as well as the non-Christians do and are aware of their own religion's objective history as well as proper debate techniques and the avoidance of logical fallacies? I mean seriously there have to be some out there. Instead we get the bright-eyed apologetics-weaned milktoast lightweights who read a lot of bumper stickers and watch a lot of videos promising that here at last is the ARGUMENT THAT WILL ALWAYS WIN. And this bulletproof shield turns out to be made of pee-soaked toilet paper.

 

Joe, look, dude, you need to step back from the proselytization here. You're pretty ignorant of your book and your religion's history, you didn't even read the board rules before you sprang into action, and dude really you're not going to be the Magic Christian who makes it all make sense. You guys have had 2000 years to figure your shit out, and you still have zero evidence for your claims and zero objective reasons to choose your god over another, or your religion over none at all.

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I haven't yet seen a christian (especially a born again or fundamentalist) who has half the knowledge of his/her religion that an ex or an atheist does.

 

Even professional apologeticists (sp) are embarrassingly irrational. The closest I've found to what I would call a religious intellectual are highly educated Catholic priests, (and Dr. Ehrman - but we know where THAT leads  LOL) but they seem distinctly less than 'religious' to me.

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You know what this place needs? A nice Jesuit priest. In a blue gingham print. Over there by the sofa. It'd match perfectly.

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Oh dear! I just threw out some A-1 steak sauce. I could've REALLY used it for the feast I see before me.. LOL

And Ak - once more you cause me to stare at the screen with a shit eating grin on my face. Thanks..

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I not sure why my comments "pissed you off".  That was not my intention. 

 

Hey Joe,

 

[FYI, I kind of like The Jimmi Hendrix Experience’s version of that song, so hopefully you won’t mind if I begin my replies that way.]

 

Your comments only slightly pissed me off because it was clear to me that you hadn’t understood the context of what you were replying to and didn’t really make an effort to try before you started pontificating about your esoteric gnosis. I don’t hold it against you. It’s my own fault when I place unreasonable expectations on others. Think no more of it.

 

Since you don't believe that the scriptures are inspired, I'm amazed you ever attended a "church" to begin with.  Could it be that when you first started going to church you believed they were inspired? I know many people who start off that way and after a time in the church, they can see the folly of the church doctrines and can't see from scripture anything but a mess of contradictions. 

 

Yes. That would appear to be the case.

 

Since you took the time to give me a detailed response, I will spend a few minutes and give you a simple example of how the truth of the scriptures is concealed:

 

Luke 22:36-38  Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.  For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.  And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

 

Earlier in scripture Christ said to love your enemies and to do good to them.  It appears now that He is contradicting Himself by telling his apostles to carry a sword.  But there is no contradiction here.  Christ said that his words are "spirit".  EVERYTHING He taught must be spiritually understood.  Later in the writings of Paul, we find out that the Word of God is symbolized by the sword and that we are to have two or three witnesses to prove a truth.  Here in Luke ch. 22, Christ was not telling his apostles to literally carry a sword.  He was telling them to carry with them the Word of God and that a double witness of scripture is sufficient to prove a truth.  I have met quite a few "christians" in the harlot church who say that Luke 22:36-38 is proof that Christ okays our right to self defense.  That is not true.  We are to NEVER return evil for evil.  Love is the only response to evil and that is why scripture says that God is love.  If you truly know Him, you will truly know love - not the love of man which says its okay to harm someone as long as you have a good enough reason. 

 

Thanks for laying that out for me. As you may have figured by now, you’re going to be bombarded by the other members of this board with all sorts of questions and rejoinders. And like the last maverick Christ-follower nice enough to grace this board with her presence, you’re going to have your hands full. So I’ll keep this short.

 

What would it take for you to accept that your interpretation of this passage and the other one you posted from 1 Timothy was wrong? Could I present any exegesis whatsoever that would convince you that some other interpretation was superior to yours? I think I know the answer to that question, but I’ll ask anyway.

Hopefully now, you can see the confusion that Luke 22:36-38 can cause when misunderstood.  Now multiply that by the entire bible (along with many verses being poorly translated) and what you have is a tangled self-conflicting mess.  We are told by scripture that we are to study line by line, precept upon precept and that the sum of God's Word is truth.  Even all the historical events from the Old Testament along with all the acts of Christ themselves have spiritual meaning for those with spiritual vision to understand.  If you see only the literal meaning of scripture, you will never know the truth of scripture.  What you end up with is 2000 different church denominations who all believe that they are correct.  It is the blind leading the blind.  To know Christ though His Word takes years of study even after Christ has given you the ability to understand it.  You must search for Him as one who is seaching for "hidden treasures".

I’m curious to know which verses you think have been poorly translated and more importantly how you think you know that. Can you read the original languages or does the spirit of Christ reveal those mistranslations to you? It seems to me that if everyone took your approach we would have far more than 2,000 different church denominations who all believe they are correct.

 

I’m glad to hear that you don’t go around returning evil for evil or proclaiming that people are destined for hellfire. However, I’m really curious what the pitch is. If I’m going to eventually be brought into the kingdom of heaven and be changed into the image of God regardless of whether or not I want that in the age to come, then from purely a risk/reward standpoint, what do I have to gain by searching for him now? Is it merely the satisfaction of knowing stuff that millions of people for two millennia have not had revealed to them? I really would like to know. Thanks.

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JoeinArkansas, if the only people "saved" are Christ's "elect," then wouldn't it be safe to say that anyone here at Ex-C isn't part of that "elect?" If so, why bother talking to anyone here? They're not now, nor will they ever be, part of the "elect."

 

Plus, if everyone is getting "saved" at some point regardless of what they believe now, why should anyone give a shit about it in this lifetime? If I'm going to heaven anyway, what difference does it make if I believe in your mythology or anything else?

You are not going to heaven ANYway.  There is only one way and that is to be "in Christ".  Someday (probably in the final age), God will cause you to seek Him out and find Him.  At the time of Christ's choosing, He will reveal Himself to you and show you the Way. 

 

 

Joe

 

WHEW!!!

 

Ok cool, call me when it's the 'final age'.

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"Last Page Syndrome" -- poor guy probably thinks this IS the "final age." Jesus has been coming back Any Day Now for 2000 years. I think we're safe. Christ had his chance. I went through hell trying to love him. He was a shitty boyfriend--never talked to me, never returned my calls, blamed me for all the problems we had, and threatened me all the time. Fuck him and the horse he rode in on. If he showed up today with a bouquet of roses, my response would involve a boot print on his ass.

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Oh Joe. Thank you so much for posting. You see, I had been missing my church friends recently. Even almost considering going back to church. In 2 single posts you have reminded me of everything I hated about Christianity. Thank you.

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Fuck him and the horse he rode in on.

 

It wasn't a horse. It was a colt. Oh, wait. Shit. It was a donkey and it's colt. Dammit. I can never keep that straight for some reason.

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