Email From My Former Pastor

[Annier]

Joe,

 

I had been out of the churches for about 6 years before I even started to seriously question, and decided I was a non-christian about 7 years after that.

 

One of the things that I found with every church/denomination I became involved with in my life (which was quite a few), and that was that each and every one of them said that they were the true church, they had the correct teaching and biblical interpretation, the others were all wrong.

 

You are no different from those churches I attended.

 

So what happens when you find people who agree with you, and adopt what you have to say?  I'm sure that this is not the only place you decide to  'share your understanding'.  Those people will look to you to explain to them what you have come to understand.     After a while there will be enough to form some sort of community of like-believers.    And that's how churches start.    And the Church of Joe in Arkansas will be the only one with the truth,  just like all the others 

[NeverAgainV]

Dear NeverAgain,

Please read my other posts on this thread and you will see that I believe the scriptures are not meant to be understood by this world but only by the very few whom Christ has chosen before the world was created.   It is a closed book for everyone else.  Also, I do not "peddle" the Word of God as do the organized churches.  They not only peddle it but what they are selling is a fraud.  Back in 2005 I was freed from those churches and I had tried many.  The truth of scripture is NOTHING like what you have been taught nor what any of the organized churches teach.  The truth that I have found has truly set me free from them and her plagues.

 

Rev 18:4  And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

 

The plaques of the harlot churches are many which include their doctrines of tithing, eternal hell, the trinity, free will, and no assurance of salvation.  In fact, they do not even know what salvation is and the purpose behind it.   It is all hidden from them. 

 

I do not think anything bad of you.  In fact, you are exactly where God wants you to be at this time.  Hell is a christian hoax and a lie from Satan.  The reason you seem to hate the church is because they are teaching the ways of Satan and not the ways of God.  God is not some monster who would ever torment someone in fire for all eternity and to make it worse, they teach that He doesn't even have a redeeming purpose for doing so.  Do you know that scripture says that God considers a harlot christian worst off than an unbeliever such as yourself?  Christ says that He finds them so repugnant that He will spew them out of His mouth.  For many of them, their judgment will be in wrath.  But as with all mankind, our judgment is limited to correcting us and teaching us His true righteousness and not the wickedness that comes from the harlot churches. 

 

Concerning your last paragraph on the church, I agree with most of what you said, especially "They've caused a LOT of damage & I for one refuse to be held hostage by those fear tactics anymore."

 

You have done well to have broken out from their plagues but you have yet to find the true Christ.  The God I know will someday will come to you, not because you have done anything worthy of Him coming to you but merely because He loves you and is not willing to let you perish.   He is the Savior and He is the One who does the saving.  You can do nothing to save youself.  And that is why Christ came to the earth in the first place and will someday He will come to you personally.

Joe

Hi Joe,

 

You sound exactly like people who are still in the bible cult I escaped from. Seriously I have heard it all before. They said exactly what you are saying as far as

"the scriptures are not meant to be understood by this world but only by the very few whom Christ has chosen before the world was created....It is a closed book for everyone else"

I also heard the same thing as you have written, "the truth of scripture is NOTHING like what you have been taught nor what any of the organized churches teach"

Also the bible verse you quoted was the EXACT verse my xpastor quoted to get people to come out of the christian churches they had been in ...to coerce them to join his little humble cult church.

 

I know you seem sincere Joe, but seriously I was NOT in a church that in any way was like the "organized church"...hell, we didn't even own a church building...to this day they still rent an American Legion hall for the sunday sermons.

The pastor also claimed & still claims to be able to discern the "truth^tm" of scripture because ....."all of those other churches are false churches & he's imparting the truth that other churches can't impart because they are

not spiritually discerned".  In other words Joe,  he is saying what you & thousands of religious sects are saying, he has the truth & those other luke warm churches & christians are deceived.

 

Do you see a pattern Joe? I understand how it is to feel that you have found this "truth", I really do.  But in time you will see it's just a religious high. Not meaning to be mean, but really people can & do get addicted to listening to sermons, hell I know people who LIVE to hear the pastor preach. They don't have one original thought for themselves...all they ever do is quote the pastor on this or that. I don't think God wants us to be clones of the pastor, but that happens quite often.

 

You know I was told by the pastor & "true believers" that there were certain books I shouldn't read...movies I shouldn't watch....& realize now that is because that pastor had no ground to stand on & was terrified that someone actually might begin to think for themselves & watching a good movie can get a person to seeing things differently. You see I believe the TRUTH is able to withstand contradiction, doubt, HONEST research, but you see, that is what many -if not all bible groups do not allow. Any group that restricts you from getting information from outside of it has something to hide.

 

Does your group allow you to read forbidden books or to watch movies that cut against the grain of the doctrine you believe?

 

I do not believe in any god who would communicate to humans using a book like the bible that has caused terrific harm to humanity. The bible was used to justify the killing of the Native American population, the bible was used to enslave people who were different from the christian, the bible has built walls between peoples, when a GOOD God would try to build bridges. The bible causes an US vs Them mentality making anyone who doesn't "believe" like them ...the enemy. People still commit murder & all sorts of crimes in the holy name of the bible god.  If God wrote a book to cause that kind of destruction, he is a most cruel god, especially if god is all knowing, he would have KNOWN that his

book would cause all of that harm & did nothing.

 

Joe, do you believe that slavery, beating & abusing other people because the bible considers them less than human- righteous? Is it right to force a woman to marry a man that raped her?

All of those atrocities plus more are A-OK with the bible god no matter how you try to "spiritualize" it, it is in THE BOOK.

 

How could a good god supposedly author a book that causes all kinds of terror, misery, torment, pain & suffering as the bible has caused & continues to inflict on mankind? No good god would. Certainly the bible was written

by primitive men during a time where they had nothing better to do but to find ways to assert themselves over people using fear & superstitions & judge people. That's what I see. I've been down that road & have weighed the bible & it's god in the balance and found them wanting. I'm done with it & want nothing to do with anything bible or christian. Not that I think Christians/believers are all horrible people, but I do see them as lemmings, who for whatever

reason, choose to not think for themselves.

 

Joe, I found that humanity, with all of it's flaws & weaknesses still has more compassion, mercy & justice than the god of the bible & many of his "ministers". I hope that someday you will muster the courage to search out information outside of what you are being taught.   When that day comes, try this great article for starters because if you do have "the truth", then it should be able to withstand a differing opinion.

Link to article:  http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/why_i_am_agnostic.html

 

But just for the record I don't believe in the bible, I don't & will never again believe in Jesus. I do hope, as I mentioned before that you someday will be able to free yourself from the constraints of bible religion.

It is possible to free yourself from it's tentacles.

Peace.

[Astreja]

Joe, I reject your theology unconditionally, and I reject your make-believe god who will allegedly save everyone at a mythical "later" but turns a blind eye to the suffering that occurs in the real world, right here and right now.  A god that can't keep "Satan," its own former second-in-command angel, from running amok on a heavily populated planet isn't someone I would trust to clean My cats' litter boxes.

 

 

Please don't waste any more of your life telling yourself and other people silly stories and longing for a heaven you will never see. We'll be here for you when your faith falls to ruin, but in the meantime we can do without the "I know the True Christ™ and you don't, neener neener neener" BS.

[Epicon]

If I was a drug addict, lets say crack (because that seems to be the funniest one, when it comes to jokes) and my drug dealer for many years came by to sell some to me.

Lets say I told him, I wasn't going to buy from him that I was done - he wouldn't handle that well. He would handle it even worse if I was helping him sell his horrible life ruining product.

Only that would be more simple, I'd get a threat, or maybe even get a gun pointed at me, straight and to the point.

However your pastor is making desperate attempt; how do I say this nicely? I know? He's trying to have mental intercourse with you. One last attempt to warp your mind, to keep his delusion in tact and healthy.

That's pretty much how I see what happened to you, with the church.

Very impressed you and your wife got out; in my experience not many do.

[Epicon]

 

 

I’m curious to know which verses you think have been poorly translated and more importantly how you think you know that. Can you read the original languages or does the spirit of Christ reveal those mistranslations to you? It seems to me that if everyone took your approach we would have far more than 2,000 different church denominations who all believe they are correct.

 

I’m glad to hear that you don’t go around returning evil for evil or proclaiming that people are destined for hellfire. However, I’m really curious what the pitch is. If I’m going to eventually be brought into the kingdom of heaven and be changed into the image of God regardless of whether or not I want that in the age to come, then from purely a risk/reward standpoint, what do I have to gain by searching for him now? Is it merely the satisfaction of knowing stuff that millions of people for two millennia have not had revealed to them? I really would like to know. Thanks.

I am limited on time and will only address your last comments above.

 

There are too many verses to list.  There are verses that are in the bible that are not in the earliest manuscripts.  There are verses that are totally mistranslated and even more that are poorly translated.  Did you know that the KJV has had over 1000 revisions to it since it first came out?  The worst error in scripture that I know is the translation of the Greek word "aion" and its adjective form "aionios".  Aion translates to eon or age but in the KJV it has other meanings that were added to accomodate church doctrine.   It's adjective form "aionios" should mean "age enduring" or "pertaining to an age" but at no time should it be translated as "everlasting" or "eternal" as the KJV frequently does.  This too was to accomodate church doctrine.  An objective study on these words is easy to do.  Much has been written concerning them.  So instead of judgment being limited to an age of time, the KJV says its everlasting.  That error is what makes judgment in their fabled hell last forever.  True judgment from God is limited to when the desired result of the punishment is obtained.  No different than when you punish a child.  Once the child's behavior is corrected, the punishment ceases.  And for the record, God's punishment is much more effective and mericful than any parent's.   From this error in the translation of "aionios", the church makes God out to be the worst monster who has ever lived.  It is no wonder people like you reject their God they have created.  I do, too.

 

Now concerning your salvation.  Christ will never force you to be saved.  He does not work that way.  Christ is so much more powerful that most people understand and He knows you better than you know yourself.  After all, He created you.  When the time comes for you to come to Christ, He will put everything in place to make you desire to do so.  A simple analogy is this:  Do you have a wife and if so, do you love her?  Did she force you do love her or did you choose to love her?  Didn't she do things and have certain character traits that caused to you to fall in love with her?  Christ works much the same way.  He will do things that will cause you to seek Him out.  He will then reveal Himself to you (which He has previously not done).  He will give you from HIS faith and HIS spirit so that it will be possible for you to love Him.   He will do all that it takes to draw you to Him.  You will willingly go and willingly desire to be like Him.  

 

As for when your time will come to be drawn to Christ, it will be a time that is not of your choosing.   For those who Christ chooses now, they will be considered blessed because they are first to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.  They will have life during the next age when most of mankind is in the grave waiting for their resurrection.  They will rule and reign with Christ over the earth during that age and will have glorious spiritual bodies instead of the corrupt bodies we have now.  They will work with Christ in the final age to judge the rest of mankind and will eventually be used by Chist to draw them to Himself.  Those who are resurrected to judgment in the final age will have inferior bodies.  Many will also have many sins that they will have to give an accounting for and as a result, their judgment may be long and difficult.   Then finally, at the end, they will receive new glorious spiritual bodies to match their new character that Christ has given them.   There is much to gain by being chosen to be in Christ's church now and much to lose if you are not.  

 

As I have been saying on this thread, I am not trying to convert or recruit anyone into some kind of a church.  I am only here to find those people who Christ has chosen and made ready to understand His Word.  All of His Elect come out from the Harlot church.  Some may even visit this forum.  But as of yet, Christ may not have opened up the scriptures to them or revealed Himself to them.  If I find someone who still has faith in Christ and desires to know Him through scripture, then I am willing to help that person.  I do not want to take that person back into the harlot church system.  There is only death inside those earthly organizations.  

 

I'm sure from all you have said that Christ has not made you ready to seek Him out at this time.  But your day will come in "due time".  I know you don't believe it but you don't have to believe it.  You are exactly in the place Christ wants you at this time, just as I am in the place He wants me.  Christ directs all things within His creation even if you can't see or understand how He does it.  Scripture says that He does it and unless Christ has given you a measure of His faith, then you will not believe it. 

 

It been interesting speaking with you but I see no reason to continue.  Thank you for sharing with me.

Joe

 

Hey Joe, as a online gamer of many many years, I have pretty good Trolldar.

While you aren't the worst troll I have ever seen, I have met 14 year old kids who played World of Warcraft back in the day, more skilled than you when it comes to trolling.

Ignore him everyone, nothing to see here, just another Troll looking to ruffle your feathers.

Either that or he is just mentally ill and beyond all help or reason (going with troll though), ignore him and move along.

[pratt]

wow,,,, someone has the secret text of God, while the world interpretes/translates/understands the word of god wrongly.

 

I am happy that there is at least 1 person who knows the original text of word of god that he wanted it to be.

 

someone whom god had illuminated, and spoken to personally,,, someone who knew the very heart of the very god,,,,

 

rest of the world, you guys are not ready yet, kindly wait for your turn, god will reach you in no time, and you will become image of god, or taken up by aliens whichever is earlier,,,

 

sorry hymenaeusalexander to derail your original intent, but this guy is really sharing his version of spiritual truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth

[Thought2Much]

Calvinists are so cute.

[owen652]

I believe you joe. No, seriously, I do. I've really thought about what you said and I think you may be correct in your interpretation of scripture

[HymenaeusAlexander]

I am limited on time and will only address your last comments above.

 

That’s kind of a bummer. You derailed my thread so you could go fishing for “true believers” and you skipped over the most relevant question I asked. That pretty much tells me all I need to know.

 

There are too many verses to list. There are verses that are in the bible that are not in the earliest manuscripts. There are verses that are totally mistranslated and even more that are poorly translated. Did you know that the KJV has had over 1000 revisions to it since it first came out? The worst error in scripture that I know is the translation of the Greek word "aion" and its adjective form "aionios". Aion translates to eon or age but in the KJV it has other meanings that were added to accomodate church doctrine. It's adjective form "aionios" should mean "age enduring" or "pertaining to an age" but at no time should it be translated as "everlasting" or "eternal" as the KJV frequently does. This too was to accomodate church doctrine. An objective study on these words is easy to do. Much has been written concerning them. So instead of judgment being limited to an age of time, the KJV says its everlasting. That error is what makes judgment in their fabled hell last forever. True judgment from God is limited to when the desired result of the punishment is obtained. No different than when you punish a child. Once the child's behavior is corrected, the punishment ceases. And for the record, God's punishment is much more effective and mericful than any parent's. From this error in the translation of "aionios", the church makes God out to be the worst monster who has ever lived. It is no wonder people like you reject their God they have created. I do, too.

 

I’m very aware of the problems in the KJV. My in-laws are KJV-Only believers and I’ve gone round and round on that issue enough to know quite a bit about it. I’m also very aware that it has influenced other English translations. What I asked was how you identify the problems and make the determination that the translation is incorrect. You say “much has been written” but give me no citation. In the example you chose there are a couple of problems. First, while αιονιοσ could be translated “age enduring” that’s functionally the same as “eternal”. That’s kind of the point. It means the noun being modified transcends the ages. Second, if you take it to mean “limited to an age” you’ve got a real problem when the word is used in passages like John 3:16, which according to the JoeinArkansas Exhaustive Greek Lexicon™ would become, “whoever believes in him will not perish but have life limited to an age.” This opens up all kinds of semantic problems for the word αιονιοσ that Inigo Montoya would probably recognize.

 

Now concerning your salvation. Christ will never force you to be saved. He does not work that way. Christ is so much more powerful that most people understand and He knows you better than you know yourself. After all, He created you. When the time comes for you to come to Christ, He will put everything in place to make you desire to do so. A simple analogy is this: Do you have a wife and if so, do you love her? Did she force you do love her or did you choose to love her? Didn't she do things and have certain character traits that caused to you to fall in love with her? Christ works much the same way. He will do things that will cause you to seek Him out. He will then reveal Himself to you (which He has previously not done). He will give you from HIS faith and HIS spirit so that it will be possible for you to love Him. He will do all that it takes to draw you to Him. You will willingly go and willingly desire to be like Him.

 

As for when your time will come to be drawn to Christ, it will be a time that is not of your choosing. For those who Christ chooses now, they will be considered blessed because they are first to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. They will have life during the next age when most of mankind is in the grave waiting for their resurrection. They will rule and reign with Christ over the earth during that age and will have glorious spiritual bodies instead of the corrupt bodies we have now. They will work with Christ in the final age to judge the rest of mankind and will eventually be used by Chist to draw them to Himself. Those who are resurrected to judgment in the final age will have inferior bodies. Many will also have many sins that they will have to give an accounting for and as a result, their judgment may be long and difficult. Then finally, at the end, they will receive new glorious spiritual bodies to match their new character that Christ has given them. There is much to gain by being chosen to be in Christ's church now and much to lose if you are not.

 

This is really bad marketing, Joe. There’s a reason why the two largest religions in the world have the threat of eternal hell. It works. It’s a great incentive when you’re offering imaginary bullshit. It’s why mainline Protestant denominations who don’t preach hell are shedding members left and right. It seems pretty obvious what course of action to take in the face of your claims. If you’re going to go around proclaiming silly stuff, you’ve got to have some teeth to your appeal. Your “me, Jesus and my Bible” approach doesn’t even offer the benefits of community like Mormonism and JWs. Good luck with that.

 

It been interesting speaking with you but I see no reason to continue.

 

We agree on that.

 

Thank you for sharing with me.

 

You’re welcome. Have a nice life, Joe. Quite frankly, I’d rather have more like you than the hell-threatening douchebags who think they have to convert everyone or at least get the government to codify their cherry-picked bullshit and force it on everyone else. Good day to you, sir.

 

[HymenaeusAlexander]

Calvinists are so cute.

 

He's non-trinitarian and doesn't believe in eternal torture. Calvin would've wanted him beheaded.

[Thought2Much]

 

Calvinists are so cute.

 

He's non-trinitarian and doesn't believe in eternal torture. Calvin would've wanted him beheaded.

 

Nobody's perfect, I guess.

[HymenaeusAlexander]

 

 

Calvinists are so cute.

 

He's non-trinitarian and doesn't believe in eternal torture. Calvin would've wanted him beheaded.

 

Nobody's perfect, I guess.

 

Not yet, anyway. We all will be someday, though. I mean, assuming Joe is correct, of course.

[Ravenstar]

Joe, I really want to know what you know!

 

hmmm... when it comes to scripture I would first have to be convinced of it's veracity. This is a tall order considering the history of scripture. If you could demonstrate that it is supernaturally inspired that would be a start. So far even the smart guys (you know scholars of ancient languages, history, bible scholars, etc..) haven't been able to do so. If you can - that would be great.

 

Then you would have to explain the inconsistencies in the texts, and the immorality of many of the passages.

 

AND if you have access to texts I haven't seen I would love to see them, please share.

 

Jesus... another iffy proposition. There may have been such a person, but the evidence is scant at best... the claims of supernatural events are no more than hearsay. If you could prove his existence, and the claims of miracles, etc... we may have some ground for discussion.

 

Then... you would have to reconcile science with the claims in the Bible...

 

BUT! If this god is real and interacts with the world then this shouldn't be too hard. Really, it should be apparent to all.

 

(However, I think this particular discussion should probably be moved to the Lion's Den... I could be wrong though.)

[new2me]

What I will add to this conversation is simply my new signature line tag.  Hitch said it best...

[HymenaeusAlexander]

Joe, I really want to know what you know!

 

hmmm... when it comes to scripture I would first have to be convinced of it's veracity. This is a tall order considering the history of scripture. If you could demonstrate that it is supernaturally inspired that would be a start. So far even the smart guys (you know scholars of ancient languages, history, bible scholars, etc..) haven't been able to do so. If you can - that would be great.

 

Then you would have to explain the inconsistencies in the texts, and the immorality of many of the passages.

 

AND if you have access to texts I haven't seen I would love to see them, please share.

 

Jesus... another iffy proposition. There may have been such a person, but the evidence is scant at best... the claims of supernatural events are no more than hearsay. If you could prove his existence, and the claims of miracles, etc... we may have some ground for discussion.

 

Then... you would have to reconcile science with the claims in the Bible...

 

BUT! If this god is real and interacts with the world then this shouldn't be too hard. Really, it should be apparent to all.

 

(However, I think this particular discussion should probably be moved to the Lion's Den... I could be wrong though.)

 

I'm afraid Joe's not going to deliver any evidence. Not because there isn't any (which there isn't), but because he doesn't feel compelled to. What he's selling is a pseudo-Christian mystical enlightenment of sorts. To him you are like a blind woman asking for evidence of the color blue.

[Ravenstar]

Ya... 

 

thought I would try though. It's interesting to see the justifications/rationalizations.

[Fernweh]

Joe, are you by any chance a member of the Landover Baptist Church?

[pratt]

Fernweh, JOE is not a member of any church,,,,,

 

he is the "elect" handpicked by jesus who dont believe in trinity or the standard apologetics,,,,l

[2bitmanchild]

I'm trying to understand why you are here, exactly. If not to convert(the place for that is the lion's den) then what is it you want us to get from what you say. Please do not assume that I am affiliated in any way with a church or became disenchanted with any particular faith.

 

I have a PhD in comparative religion and doing the work and research to obtain that made me realize just how much Christianity has borrowed from older faiths, like Hinduism, etc and from similar myths to the Jesus myth (ie: Attis, etc).  As far as my Former affiliation with the Episcopal Church, I thought they were and are a progressive denomination that cares about social justice and I still think they do good work. Of course they are not fundamentalist or evangelical.

 

But I did not lose enchantment with my church. I did realize that Christianity is simply mythology.

TBM

[2bitmanchild]

Above post is for Joe in AR

[owen652]

no, Landover is at least entertaining and thought provoking

[Akheia]

Dude sounds categorically insane to me. There's a distinct off-taste of Messiah Complex going on all up in his posts along with the usual irrational spewing of "spiritual but not religious" bullshit we get from guys who think they've got the one true spiritual revelation of TRUE CHRISTIANITY. And the deception about not proselytizing--either it's an attempt to deceive us, or an expression of the self-deception he's convinced himself with, but either way if he can't admit the obvious motivations we observe, I'm not inclined to give him much effort. And if he's that stupendously, galactically ignorant of his own religion's roots and the history of his own source book, there's not much point in engaging him. It's like trying to explain complex parts of evolutionary theory to a science denier who doesn't understand dating techniques.

 

Little lie, big lie, as they said back in the Deep South.

 

Wish I had some popcorn IRL.

[Jose]

1. How did you come by this special knowledge of Christ? 

Christ healed my spiritual vision back on Oct. 8, 2005.

 

 

Please explain the following term – “spiritual vision.”

 

Assuming that your answer to my request for definition makes some kind of sense, please explain how you knew you needed new spiritual glasses or spiritual laser-corrective surgery.

 

Further, please provide evidence that it was Yeshua bar Yosef/ Yeshua bar Yahweh and not Horus, Mithras, Krivda, Odin, Asclepius, or one of the other 60,000 named gods and goddesses who healed you.

 

 

From that day forward, the scriptures opened up to me.

 

In what way? Provide an example of the “harlot church’s” interpretation of a piece of scripture and your own. There should be a clear difference in your interpretations.

 

 

Not that I have all understanding, no one does but Christ.  But I was given the ability to find and believe His truth after spending large amounts of time studying and praying.  I still learn from scripture and I probably will until the day I die.  As one spiritual matures, more and more of the hidden knowledge of God opens up to them.

 

 

How is this “hidden knowledge” different from the “esoteric mysteries” of organized magickal practice?

 

 

There is much written in scripture about Christ coming to heal the vision of His Elect for those who have eyes to see it.  In scripture, it is frequently called the second coming of Christ.

 

 

It’s been 2000 years of “any day now.” We can safely shelve this as “not anytime soon.”

Please resolve the direct contradiction between reality and the scriptures regarding Yeshua’s promise in Matthew 16:28.

 

 

 

2. Please explain the passage from Genesis 4: 2-5  in the context of your beliefs about Elect vs. Non-Elect. 

Neither Able or Cain are one of the Elect.  The Elect of Christ started with the apostles.  All Old Testament saints will not receive the blessings of the church.

 

Is Genesis a literal story according to your hidden knowledge of scripture? Or would the story of Cain and Abel be an metaphor for the difference between the “harlot church” and “Christ’s elect?”

If Genesis is a literal story, please use your special knowledge of scripture to explain why the Jewish creation story is true and the dozens of others from cultures all over the middle east (with exactly the same archetypical characters and events), are false.

 

Please specifically resolve the similarities between the Enuma Elish and Genesis. Which one is real? Why?

 

 

3. Are you beliefs based either wholly or partially on the passage from Romans 11: 5-7?  

The "remnant" spoken of here is not the Elect.  They are a "type" of the Elect but as I said above, the Old Testament saints were not blessed to be in Christ's church.  The church is made up of persons who Christ chose before they were even born

 

.

By definition, I am a blasphemer, adulterer, thief, sexual deviant, and murderer. If chosen by Christ before birth, will I be saved no matter how many people I lead away from him or whose lives I destroy?

 

 

The harlot church teaches that all you have to do is say a "sinner's prayer" and you are in the church.  Not so.  We cannot choose ourselves into His church.  He must choose us and His choosing was done a long time ago.

 

Please provide biblical support of predestination.

[Jose]

Continued...

 

But salvation will come to the rest of mankind in the final age - the age where the harlot church says we will be burning in hell.  Salvation is not limited to His church. they are merely the first group to be saved.   Salvation is not limited at all because Christ has said that He will come to each of us in "due time" just has He came to His church.  The main difference being is that the church is the first fruits of His harvest, all others will be harvested into the Kingdom of Heaven later BEFORE Christ is finished with HIS WORK.

 

 

Please explain this assertion and resolve the contradiction between what you are saying with the following scriptures:  Luke 16:19-31, Matthew 18:8-9, Matthew 13:42, 50

 

 

4. Wouldn't there be a zero percent chance that you could convert anyone given the limitations imposed on you by god as written in John 6:37 and 6:44? I can convert no one, only the harlot church makes that claim.  And yes, they do convert people but it is NOT into Christ's church but into Satan's church who masquerades as Christ.  Satan is the antichrist whom the Harlot church follows.  As you might imagine,  I have been kicked out of many so-called christian forums for making that claim.

 

 

Resolve this statement with Matthew 18:20.

 

 

John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. Eventually, the Father will draw all mankind to Christ.  John 6:37 says ALL that the Father has given Christ will come to Him.  What is missing from that verse is this: John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.The Father has given "all things" to Christ which includes all of mankind.  The church will be saved first and then Christ will use the church to help bring in the final harvest of mankind in the final age.  It really is quite a blessing to be one of His Elect but as I said, He chooses us, we do not get to volunteer.

 

 

Resolve the contradiction between this and Luke 10:16.

 

Also, please resolve predestination with this passage from the Apocrypha: “If you will, you can keep the commandments, and to act faithfully is a matter of your own choice. He has placed before you fire and water: stretch out your hand for whichever you wish.” Sirach 15:15-16

 

Speaking of the apocryphal texts… what does your special knowledge lead you to believe regarding the Apocrypha?

 

Before you answer that, another question… is the Catholic church the Elect?

 

If not, then the scriptures you’re studying were chosen by the harlot church at the Council of Hippo in 393CE and then confirmed by the harlot church as the Latin Vulgate at Carthage in 397CE.

 

Please explain how you can be sure that the men choosing the books of the Vulgate were indeed the Elect.

 

 

5. Do you believe that god will rapture his elect? The term "rapture" is not in scripture but as the harlot church teaches, it represents the resurrection of the Elect.  So yes, certainly the Elect will be resurrected back to life after they die but so is everyone else.  The main difference being is that Christ has already judged His Elect in the life and upon their resurrection they will receive the full measure of the Holy Spirit and will at that time enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

 

I agree that the Rapture is not supported scripturally.

 

 

All others who will be resurrected later will go to judgment, from which they too will be drawn to Christ, learn righteousness and finally be made into the image of God just as the Elect were.  No one will be lost - not even the worst of mankind.

 

 

This leads me to a question. Does man have free will or not? Please support your response using both scripture and real-world examples.

[Deva]

I am not seeking to recruit or proselytize anyone.  Why do you think so?  The christianty that you know is not mine.  I want nothing to do with it.  If you would slow down and really read my posts, maybe you would understand what I am saying. 

Joe

 

It seems to me you are still presenting Jesus as someone who saves or redeems people.  Therefore, in that way you DO have something in common with the vast number of churches. Other than the universalist angle, you are identical to the teachings of orthodox Christianity.