Trying To Figure Out Why I Want To Argue/debate With Christians

[deconverted]

Since my de-conversion about two years ago, there has been one thing that has really bothered me about myself.  It seems that this thing is probably something shared my many of us here, but I am having a difficult time coming to grips with it and dealing with it.  I was hoping maybe some of you maybe have dealt with this successfully and could maybe help shed some light on the issue for me.

 

What I am trying to understand about myself is why do I feel the need to engage with Christians in debate or argument with regards to their faith?  Someone on this forum once wrote about various stages of de-conversion, and one of the stages they mentioned was what they called the Paul Revere stage.  This is where you feel like you want to go tell everyone your new perspective and belief (or lack of belief) and why.  I certainly went through this stage myself and I practically met with every friend, pastor, family member, or anyone from the church that would listen, to tell them about why I left the faith and why.  I was so excited about my new lack of faith and my new perspective on life.  I so much wanted someone to validate my feelings, to agree with me, and to have some sort of "companionship" in my new ideas and thoughts.  Well, I quickly learned that all I was doing was driving people away, causing heated arguments, and generally feeling extremely frustrated that people who normally approach life with rational thought simply threw out rational thought when it came to their faith (like I did for so many years as a Christian).  I felt like I was getting nowhere with people and all I was doing was just frustrating myself.  I finally closed myself off to talking about religion and faith, and just started living my life as if nothing was any different than before...mostly.  The friends that stayed around for me after I de-converted just stopped talking to me about it and kind of gave up on me (as far as trying to win me back).  I am sure they felt just as frustrated with me as I did when them when we argued various theological issues.  Thankfully I found the exChristian website, and realized I was not alone and that there were many others going through the same thing I was/am going through.  But, faceless people on an internet forum can only go so far.  I miss not having any sort of sense of belonging to a group where we agree on things.  I have a couple agnostic/atheist friends, but we just aren't very close.

 

It has been quite awhile now since I was actively engaged in explaining to people why I left the faith and trying to explain my thinking.  I don't know why I feel the motivation to change people, but I do.  For one thing, I so wish my wife would stop being so emotional about her faith and actually give it some critical and rational thought.  I really want to share my perspective and thoughts with her regarding how I see the world now through my non-christian view.  I wish my close Christian friends would treat their faith like they treat all other faiths and areas of life with rational and critical thinking.  However, I then stop and ask myself, why do I care what they think so much?  Why can't I just let it go and "live and let live" so to speak?

 

Last night I watched that documentary movie from Bill Maher called Religulous.  It was great!  It kind of fired me up again, and Maher seems to be under the idea that religion is really harmful to society (general speaking) and seems that he has taken up the crusade to get rid of it (like that is even possible at this point in history).  I find myself agreeing with his views about religion being dangerous and it makes me want to go out and fight against it.  I admit that I still have plenty of anger towards former friends, family members, and towards the church in general for just being so irrational and crazy.  I admit that I want people to accept me and that I have this strong desire to be "right" in my thinking.  But I am just doing the same crap Christians do, except the reverse of it.

 

I hope I made some sense in my "question" and where I am at with things, but I just struggle mightily it seems in trying to control my anger and desire to argue and debate Christians.  How have some of you controlled this or gotten rid of these feelings?  I've given so much though on various arguments that seem persuasive, but I think that those of us who have left religion are a very rare type of person.  Most people of faith don't budge one single bit when presented with what I think is rational and critical thinking.  It is all so frustrating and pointless.  I just don't want to care about it anymore, but I can't shake "caring" about it!

[Ravenstar]

You've brought up a lot of good perspectives and questions... I ask myself this quite often, and I think I have an answer, for myself anyway.

 

I find it cathartic to debate xtians, it solidifies my own position as I work through the logic and evidence and all that brought me to this point. I had years of xtian indoctrination and it seems to take time to deprogram, or re-program if you will. It's also a great thing to share with others that have come to this conclusion also... we all need a 'tribe'. We all need validation.

 

It is also a very deep thing, it's not like I just discovered cheescake (mmmm.. cheesecake) for the first time - this is about my most treasured moral and philisophical positions - it's how I navigate my world and define myself. It's IMPORTANT dammit! It's about who I am and who I choose to be.

 

I also see the harm religion does... has done to those of us here, and in general, throughout history and in the world today. It makes me angry... not just the bigotry, stupidity, rejection of reality, and terrorism and war but holding back progress and science. I have decided that except for those who basically ignore most of it and take out the good stuff it is a horrid, hateful thing and it twists people and society at large... and as a responsible global citizen if I don't speak out then I am, in my silence, condoning it.

 

^^^That's for me... and how I feel about it today, and yes, sometimes I wish I could just forget about it altogether and just live life, but it's everywhere... there's no getting away from it.

 

However, I am aware that my view and approach will change.... it always does, that's life.   Nothing is certain in this universe except change.

[mymistake]

Possible reasons include:

 

 

-You want to go over the ideas to see if you missed anything

 

-You want to help others get free or Christianity and all it entails

 

-Getting even for the pain Christianity caused

 

-There is nothing else to do with all the crap you studied

 

-To continue fully deprograming yourself

 

more?

[mcdaddy]

Christians taste good.

[Annier]

We need to untangle and break those neural pathways that have been contaminated during our brainwashing.

 

(Do I know what I m talking about here?   No. not really, but I thought it sounded clever when I said it out loud....lol)

[par4dcourse]

I think it helps to solidify a new (non)belief system, as well as blow off some steam.

[new2me]

I feel bad for people who (in my opinion) are in unnecessary bondage.  My next-door neighbors are Muslim, and the wife is rarely seen.  When she does emerge, she is fully clad in a burqua with only a small slit for her eyes.  In back of their house, they have constructed high walls on their deck, presumably so she can see a little bit of sunlight in the nice weather and still protect her from the gaze of others.  When I do see her, I just want to scream out that she doesn't have to live that way - that she can walk outside, drive a car, or run free.

 

Aside from the fact that I know I would look like a lunatic if I did in fact make such a dramatic announcement, the biggest reason I don't do so is that I know it wouldn't make a bit of difference.  I know with my own deconversion, I had to come to the point where I was willing to expose myself to non-Christian messages and open my mind to alternate points of view.  If people aren't ready to hear the message about how awful religion is, they just won't listen - no matter how compelling your message may be.

[MultifariousBirdLady]

I hope I made some sense in my "question" and where I am at with things, but I just struggle mightily it seems in trying to control my anger and desire to argue and debate Christians.  How have some of you controlled this or gotten rid of these feelings?  I've given so much though on various arguments that seem persuasive, but I think that those of us who have left religion are a very rare type of person.  Most people of faith don't budge one single bit when presented with what I think is rational and critical thinking.  It is all so frustrating and pointless.  I just don't want to care about it anymore, but I can't shake "caring" about it!

Yep, I've done that, too.  Occasionally I can still get riled up again if something touches a nerve, but that's more rare now.

 

I concur with some of the other things people have mentioned upthread.  I recall wanting to know all the angles and figure out if I had missed something or not.  I recall feeling like if people only knew, then they would see what I saw and free themselves, too.  I also recall being just so damned angry about it all, and debate became a way to vent and give witness to what was wrong in the belief system and how it hurt people... including how it had hurt me.  I did want people to listen.  I wanted validation and sometimes I got it. 

 

Two things happened that caused me to change: One was that I took an anthropology of religion class where we did participant observation in rural mountain churches.  I had to control my reactions and do my best to suspend judgment in that class.  We were there to learn about the people and how religion fit into their lives and culture, not to stew about how wrong they were or look for arguments that poke holes in their worldview.  It's tricky, because of course you can't just suspend your own experience and observe from a truly neutral position.  It's impossible to be completely objective, so part of observation is reflecting on how your own experiences affect what things you notice or react to.  That learning process gave me some skills that I didn't have before.

 

The second thing that happened seems religious in nature, though like most religious things it could also be interpreted in a psychological light.  In any case, the bottom line is that I re-investigated Christianity from a very different angle, in a different and much more liberal church, taking the practices and writings in a much more symbolic way, as a product of human society trying to express lofty ideas and feelings in a way that attempted to foster belonging, comfort, and courage.  I compared it with the Paganism that I had embraced by that time and found points of similarity.  Ultimately, I ended up seeing parts of the religion that were helpful and how they contrasted with the parts that were hurtful.  It was during this time that I realized I could find in Christianity three different Jesus figures: a "Christ" (a symbolic, idealized figure), the "historical Jesus" (a man about whom there is a lot of speculation), and the "demonic Jesus" (that petty tyrant that thrives on your guilt and fear).  A little more than a year after this process started, I performed a ritual to symbolically "destroy" the last of those three.  I think it worked.  As a result of that investigation, though, I found more understanding for people who were still in the faith, and became more tolerant of them bringing religious stuff up without feeling the need to counter them all the time. 

[RipVanWinkle]

I'm trying to reach the point in my deconversion that I don't feel the need to debate the issues with Xtians. Some days I believe i have reached that point; the next day I don't. I think the reason I do want debate sometimes is because deep down I fear that I have missed something in deciding to deconvert and then the same old fears caused by Xtianity surface. So I think I'll debate to see what Xtians can say in support of their faith. I think at times I don't trust my own ability to think these issues through, but I can't take the word of anyone else because I don't want to merely swap faith in the Bible for faith in a nonbeliever's opinion. I'd be right back to having faith in faith rather than in reason. I'm sort of rambling, but I hope I'm being clear enough.

                                                                                                                                   bill

[mymistake]

You know the Lion's Den is full of old threads from past "debates" with Christians.  It's sometimes fun to go through the old stuff and watch the Christians cop out and run.

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

Probably a mix of reasons:

 

- residual uncertainty

- wanting to know why they believe, or why you believed, to better understand where you went wrong

- alot of the above possiblities others stated

- maybe new found confidence, a change in identity. Some people when coming out of the closet go through the "let the world know" phase if they're gay, because they were held back for so long all they held back now wants to come out. Alot of times with deconversion, the doubts are flowing forward.

- guilt that you no longer believe, but others are still fooled by it.

[deconverted]

Thanks for all the replies.  I remember back when I was a Christian, I certainly wanted to argue (in a nice way) with people who didn't believe what I believed.  I wanted to be right and show them why.  I certainly didn't feel then, nor do I feel now that I am uncertain of what I think.  Of course, as the faith deteriorated, I felt uncertain more an more, but I didn't feel guilty in any way.  For me, guilt really isn't playing any part of this I don't think.

 

For some reason I have this arrogant idea that I am right and I want to change people into my way of thinking.  One thing about me is that even though I think I am "right" in my thinking, I am always trying to evaluate what and why I think I am right about.  I've always tried to be open to new ideas and hearing what other people have to say, but I also feel like I want to change people.  I have to get over that part.  Maybe just admitting it is the first step as they say! 

[Geezer]

.....  If people aren't ready to hear the message about how awful religion is, they just won't listen - no matter how compelling your message may be.

 

 

 

[Akheia]

Any time you have a big experience, you want to talk about it. I lost a bunch of weight and for a few years I was absolutely insufferable about it, I'm sure. It was on my mind. I was so angry about how food manufacturers do business, about how modern eating habits have been so shaped and transformed to the detriment of consumers, about how awesome life was now that I was normal-sized, etc. Ever have a friend who's had a child recently? Planning a wedding? Just got divorced? Try getting him/her to talk about anything else. It's just how we are. You just had a huge experience, and you've begun to see just how horrible Christianity is. You're going to want to talk about it for a while.

 

That desire will fade in time, most likely. I don't tend to start arguments with Christians nowadays unless they bring it, like we see sometimes here on ex-C. As with sex, what religion someone is doesn't bother me as long as they keep their antics to themselves and don't try to force me to go along with their weird fantasies.

[waitingongod]

I just enjoy a good discussions.  I have a christian coworker and we occasionally have discussions, and it always seems like the answers I get just provoke more questions and we go round and round.  

[Rek99]

Just remember what it was like when you were a Christian.  When I was in the fold I wouldn't listen to anyone's argument, no matter how much it made sense.  They just didn't understand god!

 

I've stopped arguing with anyone, or attempting to even engage in an intellectual conversation unless they start it...... which is never.

[maxmaxmaxmax]

Not sure if this one has been mentioned yet, or maybe I'm phrasing it slightly differently.

 

Changing your mind gives you confidence that others can change theirs too. You feel liberated and there's a real belief that those close to you can taste the same freedom you enjoy. Now that you've come upon certain information or arguments that have worked on you, it feels like you now hold the very key that will unlock their brains and free them.

[MultifariousBirdLady]

Not sure if this one has been mentioned yet, or maybe I'm phrasing it slightly differently.

 

Changing your mind gives you confidence that others can change theirs too. You feel liberated and there's a real belief that those close to you can taste the same freedom you enjoy. Now that you've come upon certain information or arguments that have worked on you, it feels like you now hold the very key that will unlock their brains and free them.

Yes, that was definitely part of it for me. They would free themselves and collectively we could all free society from religious oppression.

 

To some extent, that IS happening, or at least starting to.

[DrGuitar]

Maybe the former Christian in you is still trying to control you with all this obsessive introspection.

Why not chill out and stop worrying and fretting over your own behavior so much? Don't you think Christians just obsess about themselves and try and repress their own humanity ? This is maybe why you liked it in the first place or as in my case became introspective after you got caught in it and after you started doing all the self examination they teach. Even today I catch myself thinking about my own behavior in a critical way I never did before I became an evangelooney. I made that term up!

 

Eventually you will maybe leave them alone and just be happy you aren't as crazy as they are anymore . I went to a mega church I used to attend about a year ago and felt like i had stumbled into a cult camp.

 

If THEY start the debate however, take it as an opportunity given by God or whatever to show them the light and save them from Christianity !!

[buffettphan]

evangelooney

 

 

Love it -- and it goes perfectly where I live -- in the land of Funnymentalism! 

 

 

Welcome to ex-c, Dr.Guitar.

[Guest MadameX]

I sometimes get sucked into those arguments too

Suppose it's the teacher in me that wants to help the person understand

And sometimes I just want to unravel the crazy because it is hard to accept someone can get so twisted up In their thinking

 

Sometimes we have to realize that crazy is crazy

[Epicon]

Using logic to battle Christians, is like expecting chocolate to suddenly become vanilla.

Just best to ignore them and move along.

Of course it becomes harder when family members and friends are Christians.

Same rule should apply, until your rights and personal freedoms are being attacked.