Should An Atheist Be Pro Life?

[SquareOne]

 

 

 

I'm against abortion, unless in cases of rape, molest, child development issues and health threat to the mother.

 

 

 

Epicon, why would you allow abortion in the instance of rape, but not from consensual sex?

 

I also think that's a weak argument.  If you believe the thing in a woman's stomach is to be protected and has rights, its origin shouldn't matter. 

 

My point exactly.

 

But er - uterus!

[Epicon]

Look, I don't like the idea of a woman getting a abortion due to rape.

I mean I don't see how killing a cell, that will probably turn into a baby, will make anything better.

In short killing a kid (I know debatable opinion) doesn't make the rape better.

However at the same time, the victim, didn't ask for it to happen to her.

It was forced against her will and therefore, even though I am against it, she should have a right to a abortion.

This is just my opinion.

Origin matters, in regards to everything, think about it.

 

Just like, I think someone defending themselves and killing a criminal in their house, who was trying to end their life.

Shouldn't be compared and or punished along side a accomplished serial killer, because they both have taken life.

Both of those people have different origins that tie into their motives, so it does matter.

[Adrianime]

The way I see it is killing a human being is always "bad" or "wrong".  But sometimes a person has done something so wrong (such as killing another person) that they "deserve" being killed.  So we can justify doing this great wrong upon another. 

 

In the case of abortion, if you believe the potential human growing inside of the woman is a living human being.  Then aborting (killing) it when it hasn't done anything to deserve it isn't right. 

 

To me it's parallel to discrimination.  Imagine somebody saying, "I think all human life is sacred, well except for the gays, the retarded, the disabled, and coloreds, they don't count." 

That sounds similar to me to, "I think the pre-born fetus inside a woman is a living human being, and I think we should protect all human life, well except if it was caused by rape, or it's deformed.  Then it's no good.  Kill it."

 

I think it's a hyprocritical stance.  A contradiction based on discrimination.  Keep in mind I'm speaking from the assumption that you think the thing in the woman's stomach has more of a right to live than the mother has a right to control over her life and her body.  Also known as the pro-life stance.

[SquareOne]

Again - it's the uterus, adrianme, not the stomach.

 

A woman gestates the foetus, she doesn't digest it.

[Adrianime]

Again - it's the uterus, adrianme, not the stomach.

 

A woman gestates the foetus, she doesn't digest it.

 

Haha I didn't realize you were pointing that last comment at me.  Yes, I know the baby is in the uterus.  In the U.S.A., it's common vernacular to refer to the fetus as if it was growing inside of the stomach.  At least where I'm from.

 

Kind of the whole storybook phrase, "...and the baby grew inside the mommy's tummy."

[SquareOne]

Right...

 

Well where I'm from it's common vernacular to use the correct word!  So yeah...

 

But if you don't mind looking silly, I won't mention it again.

[Adrianime]

Haha, no reason to be a dick.  I don't make fun of you for calling drunk "pissed".

[Vigile]

Perhaps the prevalence of pedantry may be largely accounted for by the common error of thinking that, because useful knowledge should be remembered, any kind of knowledge that is at all worth learning should be remembered too.
Albert J. Nock

[SquareOne]

 

 I don't make fun of you for calling drunk "pissed".

 

 

Good for you, because you'd look pretty silly.

[SquareOne]

 

 

Perhaps the prevalence of pedantry may be largely accounted for by the common error of thinking that, because useful knowledge should be remembered, any kind of knowledge that is at all worth learning should be remembered too. Albert J. Nock

 

 

I always have a quotation for everything - it saves original thinking.  - Dorothy L Sayers

[Adrianime]

 

 

 I don't make fun of you for calling drunk "pissed".

 

 

Good for you, because you'd look pretty silly.

 

Glad you agree .

[Galien]

You two sound like an old married couple - Me

[SquareOne]

What can I say, he cracks me up.

[Yrth]

Here's an interesting pro-choice perspective: http://www.salon.com/2013/01/23/so_what_if_abortion_ends_life/

 

 

When we on the pro-choice side get cagey around the life question, it makes us illogically contradictory. I have friends who have referred to their abortions in terms of “scraping out a bunch of cells” and then a few years later were exultant over the pregnancies that they unhesitatingly described in terms of “the baby” and “this kid.” I know women who have been relieved at their abortions and grieved over their miscarriages. Why can’t we agree that how they felt about their pregnancies was vastly different, but that it’s pretty silly to pretend that what was growing inside of them wasn’t the same? Fetuses aren’t selective like that. They don’t qualify as human life only if they’re intended to be born.

 

When we try to act like a pregnancy doesn’t involve human life, we wind up drawing stupid semantic lines in the sand: first trimester abortion vs. second trimester vs. late term, dancing around the issue trying to decide if there’s a single magic moment when a fetus becomes a person. Are you human only when you’re born? Only when you’re viable outside of the womb? Are you less of a human life when you look like a tadpole than when you can suck on your thumb?

 

...

 

It seems absurd to suggest that the only thing that makes us fully human is the short ride out of some lady’s vagina. That distinction may apply neatly legally, but philosophically, surely we can do better. Instead, we let right-wingers perpetuate the sentimental fiction that no one with a heart — and certainly no one who’s experienced the wondrous miracle of family life — can possibly resist tiny fingers and tiny toes growing inside a woman’s body. We give a platform to the notion that, as Christina Locke opined in a recent New York Times Op-Ed, “motherhood had slyly changed us. We went from basking in the rights that feminism had afforded us to silently pledging never to exercise them. Nice mommies don’t talk about abortion.”

[SquareOne]

That's pretty much what I've been trying to say.  That was better put!

[Ro-bear]

All this talk of right and wrong and fair and unfair seems a little odd to me.  That's all a matter of opinon.  To me it makes more sense to concern ourselves with what is in society's interest.  And I have no interest in any fetus in some other person.  There are babies enough to perpetuate the species. 

 

My wife and I wanted our fetuses to come out and be babies.  That was our choice.  I don't think much about aborted fetuses and don't see why I should.

[Vigile]

 

 

 

Perhaps the prevalence of pedantry may be largely accounted for by the common error of thinking that, because useful knowledge should be remembered, any kind of knowledge that is at all worth learning should be remembered too. Albert J. Nock

 

 

I always have a quotation for everything - it saves original thinking.  - Dorothy L Sayers

 

Except I don't and I'm not a pedant.  You really are turning into a troll.  You might get that checked out. 

 

[Vigile]

All this talk of right and wrong and fair and unfair seems a little odd to me.  That's all a matter of opinon.  To me it makes more sense to concern ourselves with what is in society's interest.  And I have no interest in any fetus in some other person.  There are babies enough to perpetuate the species. 

 

My wife and I wanted our fetuses to come out and be babies.  That was our choice.  I don't think much about aborted fetuses and don't see why I should.

 

Societal interest is a little too utilitarian to me.  Personally, I prefer to look at it in terms of harm.  There's a lot of hand-wringing about harm to the fetus, and how one views life from hindsight, but fetus doesn't give a shit any more than you or I gave a shit before we experienced life.  Harm to someone who has already experienced life (the mother) trumps all concerns here.  It seems to me this is axiomatic and only preconceived notions (e.g., that life is somehow magic by its own right) keep people from seeing it just like preconceived notions keep xians under the impression salvation really is a gift and not an empty threat. 

[SquareOne]

Let's just clear this up so I understand the rules.  If you use a quote to insult me and call me a pedant that's acceptable behaviour, but if I use a witty quote to light-heartedly rebuff your insult that is trolling?

 

[Vigile]

You seem to have trouble connecting the dots, but I'll get this on record anyway.

 

You have proven yourself a pedant on several occasions, including making an issue of my spelling of the word horde/hoard and calling out the use of colloquialisms in this thread.  No one appreciates a pedant but perhaps another pedant.  Your response wasn't witty, it was snide and inaccurate given the fact that 99.9% of the time I don't use quotes in order to convey my point. 

 

We need not continue our discussion as something about the manner in which you debate makes me petulant.  I'll take the blame here. 

[SquareOne]

Well I'm glad we cleared that up.

[Kurari]

Well, I think I´m pro life. On wikipedia they say pro life movement is against abortion, euthanasia, death penalty, embryonic stem-cell research. I´m against abortion because I think it´s kind of irresponsible. I think woman should have thought about their fertility long before they decided to have sex. Every action has its consequences and if you don´t know that having unprotected sex can make you pregnant than you are a complete ignorant. I think abortion allows women to act irresponsible. Using contraception and acting a little bit smarter is really not hard. I´m against euthanasia just because I think I shouldn´t do to other people what I wouldn´t like other people to do to me. I wouldn´t want anyone to murder me. Plus, there is always a chance for a spontaneous recovery. Death penalty, I´m against it, well, because I have a heart I think every person deserves a second chance and instead of killing her we can resocialize people. People who commit crime usually had really messed up childhoods, they were abused and neglected and then we as society treat them no differently. Instead of helping them we murder them. I think it´s cruel. We can educate them and offer them psychological help instead of putting them in prisons. We all realize that putting a person in the prison does not help them, it just keeps them away from the society. Not to mention how they treat them like shit. Now, maybe I am totally idealistic and naive, and I know there are some personality disorders which cannot be cured, like sociopathy, but then again, maybe we didn´t try hard enough. 

 

When it comes to emryonic stem-cell research, I support it, I don´t see a reason why not. I support scientific progress. 

 

Just what is irresponsible about wanting to have sex? And why is it only irresponsible for women? What about men and their fertility? 

 

And WHY do you think people DON'T consider the fact that they are fertile? I don't understand this line of reasoning. 

 

Children and parenthood are NOT punishments, consequences, or our little pawns to show off how "responsible" we are. That line of thinking is frankly disgusting, immoral, and has no place in a civilized society. Parenthood is a HUGE undertaking, and children are human beings who deserve a little more consideration to their lives than being born simply because sperm met zygote. Plus to if the men and women involved are truly irresponsible people, I would certainly HOPE they would spare a child their "parenting" skills and get an abortion. Raising a child when you can't feed them, clothe them, or treat them with a modicum of kindness or care at all whether they have the skills they need to be functioning adults when they grow up? Now THAT is irresponsibility. We have enough abused children in this world. 

 

I got pregnant while ON birth control. That actually happens a LOT. Hell, I've even been sterilized and had my endometrium removed, and my husband has had a vasectomy. I'm STILL at a risk for getting pregnant. What else do people want us to do? I've had all of 4 partners in my entire life, and I had an abortion while with my ex-fiance. Birth control fails. If you are going to have sex, there  is no such thing as "fool proof" birth control. You just take it into consideration and do your best. 

 

It's a really annoying and damaging MYTH that only "sluts" and irresponsible women get abortions. The women who have abortions are by majority poor and young. They cannot get or afford or obtain birth control, proper prenatal care, or they cannot afford to raise a child. Many are already mothers who need to take care of the children they have. Is it responsible to force welfare to pay for their children they can't afford, or steal food out of their other children's mouths? 

 

Speaking personally and from being involved in this debate, I've never met a woman who has NOT thought in great depth about or has not had very serious and good reasons for getting an abortion. Maybe their choices won't be your choices, but there is NO logical reason to tell them that their choice is wrong or force them to sacrifice everything they have worked for in their lives for over sex. That's just pure fundamentalist Christian misogyny (and misanthropy) working it's poison into secular society and KILLING our women and children. 

 

The rest of it, eh, I'm cool with. I've seen a lot of people and animals die really horrible "natural" deaths, and that scares the crap out of me far worse than death itself. I watched family members die of cancer. So I'm totally for euthanasia and really, really hope someone gives me some pills to off myself before I get to that point. 

 

I've also worked in the court systems on many cases. My experience there is that we need to enact the death penalty a LOT more. I can appreciate people having heart, but I've learned it's simply naive to think if we can just "try harder" to take care of some criminals. It's a mental trap and not really based out of reality that they will suddenly one day realize that they did something wrong. It doesn't work that way. Now mind you, I'm not death-penalty happy...I think our system for the death penalty is flawed, and I actually come from a state that has had high successes for treating recidivism. Which is cool. That's the way it SHOULD be. 

 

But for the worst of the worst, the ones who do the most unspeakable things to others...your sociopaths and psychopaths...they aren't human in their thinking. That's the way they were born. It's like staring at a real-life nightmare. They are quite literally monsters. Animals too warped and dangerous to be trusted around another innocent being. I've been privvy to those intimate psychiatric talks and listened to their own words. It makes your flesh crawl and your hair stand on end as you get a look into how those minds work...it's...surreal. Unearthly. Very disturbing stuff. 

 

But those are my opinions. I respect and it doesn't bother me if others are against euthanasia and the death-penalty.

 

But calling women irresponsible for having an abortion, or pro-liarism in general...I can't respect their beliefs anymore than I can  respect any other kinds of religious dogma. No matter how many times you debunk it, it still keeps hanging around and poisoning others. I think it's a very immoral position to have.*

 

*and I'm talking true pro-liarism...not the "personally pro-life, publicly pro-choice" kinds. As far as I'm concerned, that's default pro-choice and I have no quarrel with that....Even if the misconceptions about abortion still annoy the piss out of me. 

[Akheia]

Beautifully said, Kurari. I really appreciate you taking the time you have on this thread to talk about your experiences.

 

In an age when most societies are overrun with children who need help, the idea that a baby is a suitable punishment for sex is not only abhorrent but deeply immoral and cruel. Babies should never be a punishment. They deserve better. In an age when abortion is usually the end result of a deeply dysfunctional, misogynistic society, the idea that we'll fix everything by making it illegal, but studiously avoiding fixing the dysfunction and misogyny in the society that prompts women to need abortions in the first damn place, is not only ass-backwards but categorically shown to not work at all to lower abortion rates. Forced-birthers prove time and again where their priorities really are by pushing for laws where compassion and education are what are really needed.

 

And we'd outlaw abortion... why? So someone can feel like the law is consistent? CONSISTENCY is what we're worried about here, not the lives of actual women, not the bodily rights of actual women, not their lives, not their futures, not the society that has brought them to the point where they'll take any risks including death to rule their own bodies?

 

SquareOne, you're not a bad egg. You're a Lawful Neutral surrounded by a sea of Chaotic Goods, is all, and I can see why you have a worrying preoccupation with this consistency issue. The beautiful thing about the law as a whole (whether in the UK or the US) is that it is not lawful really. It's chaotic. It's gloriously messy, sometimes breathless, and often splattered with questionably sticky stuff, just like sex is.

 

Sometimes it isn't consistent. Sometimes it can't be. Maybe even sometimes it shouldn't be. Rights are a tricky thing to define and enshrine in law. "Fire" in the movie theater. "Where the other guy's nose begins." It's not always easy to set a line up. But set the line up we must, and we keep trying to balance individual liberty vs. society's interests in keeping things from getting too rowdy. The important thing is to keep the tide rolling forward.

 

Try your hand at baking. Baking's pretty damned lawful. The law is an art, not a science. Baking's a science far more than an art. I think you'd like it more than trying to push your nose into women's uteruses. Or is it uterii? I never do remember.

[Adrianime]

Kurari, I agree with everything you said about abortion.  Seriously, the problem that so many people ignore is the irresponsibility of bringing kid's into this world that you cannot raise or be a good parent for.

 

I kind of glazed over ther other parts of your post though, sorry . 

[SquareOne]

Well, I do like to bake.

 

I'm not sure that where the law is messy that is something to be proud of though, but rather something we should overcome and tend towards orderliness.

 

Though I'm glad to hear you don't think I'm a bad egg.