Should An Atheist Be Pro Life?

[SquareOne]

Akheia, your posts are really long.  It's pretty difficult for me to respond to everything you say comprehensively.  Perhaps it would be easier if I just respond to actual questions.  Though I would like to address this:

 

 

You're still hung up also on using very absurd emotional pleas to justify your repressive mindset. That you blithely compare an abortion to a woman shooting someone is a good example of your rigid and dogmatic thinking. That's so far past ridiculous that I don't even think you think that's the case, so why would you ascribe such an atrocity to a woman seeking an abortion?

 

You clearly did not understand what I meant.  Other people in the thread did understand - one disagreed - one tended to agree - but they did understand what I meant.

 

I was taking a certain statement, i.e. that a woman should be able to do anything at all with her body that she wants, and carried it to an extreme to demonstrate its falsehood.

 

No pro-choice person believes that a woman should be able to do absolutely anything she wants with her own body.  Well, unless they are an absolute anarchist perhaps.  What they mean is that the woman should be able to control her reproductive rights.

 

My issue was really a linguistic one.

 

Vigile

 

 

 

3-month old babies are no longer dependent on their carrier's body, so we as a society have given them the same rights we give to allindividuals. 

 

You did not say that in your original post.  You have changed, or added to, your argument.  My response was to your original comment, and I stand by my response to your original comment.

[SquareOne]

R.S. Martin

 

I am not a troll.

 

I think it is really awful that just because I want to discuss what are very, very difficult ideas, which I struggle with; and because I take a certain view that is typically held by Christians, that you would assume as a matter of course that I must be a Christian.  That's really very upsetting.

 

Your accusation makes no sense.  What trollish behaviour have I engaged in?  Start with my first paragraph in the OP.  Look carefully at how much I have conceded my own subjective opinion on this issue.  Note how I have said to MyMistake that I will consider his arguments - and indeed I have begun to do so.

 

I really wanted to try and learn and discuss about this issue, and you're just throwing that back in my face.  Do you not believe that as atheists we should be open and think critically about things?

 

I will invite you to a private chat - maybe by talking to you individually you will see that I am sincere.  But beyond that I guess I'm pretty helpless.

[Akheia]

Moving the goalposts and changing definitions of words is what anti-abortion folks do, RSM. Once we establish that we don't consider abortion a sin against the fetus, he's going to extend his views to actual babies and start comparing abortion to infanticide, which are such outrageously false comparisons that it beggars belief. I mean, I sure didn't believe he was doing it the first time he did... till he said it a second time to Vigile. Holy shit, he really thinks that a fetus is the same as a baby and that abortion is the same as shooting a toddler. I don't even know what the fuck to say to that. It's mind-blowing. But it's the anti-choice machine at work. The excuse that he was being absurd is, well, absurd. If it's absurd, hey, don't say it! Make a comparison that works. I've made several, which got ignored.

 

I want to thank you, RSM, Vigile, JA, and the others who have spoken up in this thread for my rights. I admit I feel sometimes that being a woman in these discussions where lofty-minded men are discussing women's fates feels like I'm being locked in a very small coffin by a smiling jailer who knows what is best for me. It's suffocating and it's terrifying. And there you are to take my ramblings and make sense of them in ways that I could not at the time. I love you guys. You're not going to lose me over this. I'm not going to burst a blood vessel either, no worries, and I'm not going to shut up. This is just one guy who doesn't get it. In the long scheme of things, it's unlikely that his country will regress women's rights, so his views are his to grapple with until he gets the spiritual kick to the head that I did, and that various other people here did.

 

As to you, Sq1, pro-choice people believe that it should be my *choice* whether or not someone else crawls into my body and whether or not a third party is allowed to seize my physical body for its own purposes. The pro-choice platform goes past just abortion/pregnancy and into disassembling the entire patriarchy and rape culture myths, and it affirms women's equality and rights with education, resources, and social support. I hope you study this issue more and learn where the anti-abortion movement came from, its deceptive and manipulative tactics, and what its goals really are, so that you can progress past your indoctrination. I'm kinda done here, because I perceive that your views are even more rigid than I'd initially thought. You do talk like a lawyer, but I'd rather you talked like a compassionate human being.

[SquareOne]

I'm really sorry that I've upset you.

 

I've done my best to try and keep this a civil discussion.  But, I guess I'm just not good at conveying empathy with words.

 

For the record I don't think abortion is like killing toddlers.  I was just saying that Vigile's statement, in isolation, was applicable both to foetuses and three month old babies.  Neither can comprehend their own existence.

 

Anyway, I think your preconceptions of me are colouring the words that I say, so maybe I should withdraw from this discussion.

[Guest MadameX]

MadameX, I am not sure to which school of debating you are subscribing, here.

 

Are you suggesting that my argument that British abortion law is objectionable due to its resting upon an arbitrary 24-week cut-off period, is invalid because I personally do not teach birth control, chase down 'lyin cheatin menfolk' or stage sit-ins at prisons where the death penalty is carried out, or go to nursing homes and insist on extending life?

 

Because if so, that is one of the most impressive straw man arguments that I have ever come across.

 

If not, I am not sure what you are trying to say.

 

It's not hard to understand.

 

If you were pro-life, you would also be opposed to capital punishment, euthanasia, assisted suicide, economic injustice, poverty, and war. Didn't you start this thread by complaining about a legal position that was not rational and that was arbitrary? Pot meet kettle. You are not pro-life, you are anti-abortion. This is nothing new: men have been invested in controlling women for a long long time. Let's call it what it is.

 

BTW there are around a half million children in this country that are unwanted and without homes. Have you adopted any? Former fetuses, all! 

 

 

This is a Christian thinker who has a position of being truly pro-life, and I find his work admirable, though I know precious little about him and of course I think the dogma he has swallowed is wack. But at least his ethical position is consistent and truly 'pro-life' more than most of the anti-abortion spouters I have heard from:

- advocates debt forgiveness for Haiti

- human rights (against torture)

- climate change as a moral issue

- peacemaking (zero nukes)

- critic of Christian zionism

- common ground on culture war issues (reducing need for abortion - healthcare availability for poor people and all who need it; LGBT equality; 

 

http://www.davidpgushee.com/activist.html

 

Not that I agree with him, but he is intellectually honest, at least. Other than the believing in a sky daddy thing, that is.

 

~~~

Oh, and the 24-week thing. Never mind that the great majority of abortions occur in the first trimester. Viability has been what has guided that yes, arbitrary timeframe. Do you have a better suggestion?

[Raul]

That quote - That was not something that I said.

 

 Sure,that was just a fairly sarcastic paraphrase of what you'd seem to offer.

Would it not be more logical to allow abortion right up until the point of birth?

 I disagree with argument from viability too. Does that make me pro-"all fertilized eggs should come of age"? No.

[SquareOne]

If you were pro-life, you would also be opposed to capital punishment, euthanasia, assisted suicide, economic injustice, poverty, and war.

 

I am.

 

Just because I don't devote my days to these causes does not mean I do not subscribe to the particular point of view.

 

But by the way, and not that its any of your business, I do spend personal time and money on these issues.

 

 

 

 

 

This is a Christian thinker who has a position of being truly pro-life, and I find his work admirable, though I know precious little about him and of course I think the dogma he has swallowed is wack. But at least his ethical position is consistent and truly 'pro-life' more than most of the anti-abortion spouters I have heard from:

- advocates debt forgiveness for Haiti

- human rights (against torture)

- climate change as a moral issue

- peacemaking (zero nukes)

- critic of Christian zionism

- common ground on culture war issues (reducing need for abortion - healthcare availability for poor people and all who need it; LGBT equality; 

 

These were positions that I held prior to my deconversion.

 

In fact, it was part of my deconversion process that I was appalled that other Christians did not take these issues so seriously.

 

I still hold these views.

 

 Sure,that was just a fairly sarcastic paraphrase of what you'd seem to offer.

 

Oh.  I see.  I wasn't expecting sarcasm.  My bad I guess.

 

 

 I disagree with argument from viability too. Does that make me pro-"all fertilized eggs should come of age"? No.

 

So... what do you think we should use as the justification for the abortion cut-off?  Bearing in mind you might have the very answer to the issue I initially raised, I would dearly like to hear it.

[Guest MadameX]

Shrug. Ok. What can I do for you Sq 1? Yes it kind of is part of the discussion as far as the consistency of your views. Sorry, I get the feeling you are becoming petulant. I did not realize that you are indeed, young, and a recent convert. I was a little rough on you.

 

btw those other quotes are not mine.

[SquareOne]

Petulant, is probably not the right word.  Frustrated maybe, at being misrepresented and having to refute allegations about my beliefs that are not based on anything I have actually said, yes.

 

I wouldn't say you were rough.  You were just... bafflingly wide of the mark.

 

Anyway, thanks for backing down a bit.

[Guest MadameX]

Petulant, is probably not the right word.  Frustrated maybe, at being misrepresented and having to refute allegations about my beliefs that are not based on anything I have actually said, yes.

 

I wouldn't say you were rough... Akheia was rough.  You were just... bafflingly wide of the mark.

 

Anyway, thanks for backing down a bit.

 

Um, no. On the mark. Sorry, it is hard to understand these things at first when you leave the cult. You were brainwashed, that's all. You'll get there, eventually.

And no backing down, no sir. Let's be clear.

 

All the best to you, my young friend. It is not easy coming out of that authoritarian Christian mindset and you cannot be blamed for having residual mind games going on in your brain.

[dB-Paradox]

In regards to whether or not atheists should be pro-life...I don't think one way or the other.  I *personally* am pro-life, and I hate to sound like C.S. Lewis here, but I'm going to rip off one of his quotes and tailor it for this topic.  "To argue against pro-life is to argue against that which has given you the ability to argue in the first place".  (At least when using the quote in this context, it holds water...in regards to God, not so much!)

 

I am not anti-abortion.  I believe there are times when it can and should be used.  Rape, for one.  Physical health, being another.  But "Oops, we got preggo" is not something I sympathize with the couple.  Either raise the baby, or give it up for adoption.  I'm sure there are plenty of same sex couples that would LOVE to have a new addition to their home!

 

Also, I am pro-life beyond the womb.  I disagree with war, death penalty, assisted suicide, etc...  However, if someone so badly wants to die and nothing will make them feel better, I would sympathize with assisted suicide, only because the person wanting it is (presumably) capable of making the decision.

[Galien]

I think people should do what their conscience dictates. I have seem to many poor kiddies dragged up into a life of depression, abuse and anxiety by parents who should never have had them. I'm one of them. My mother went to abort me but chickened out when she got there. Being 1960, her chances of survival with a backyard abortionist would not have been great.

 

Sometimes people get pregnant when they don't want to be. It's not my business to tell them how to handle that. It is my business to support a government that respects women enough to make sure abortions are carried out in sterile safe places.

[Guest MadameX]

I am not anti-abortion.  I believe there are times when it can and should be used.  Rape, for one.  Physical health, being another.  But "Oops, we got preggo" is not something I sympathize with the couple.  Either raise the baby, or give it up for adoption.  I'm sure there are plenty of same sex couples that would LOVE to have a new addition to their home!

 

Curious, how exactly does this work. Shall we elect you to be the one to judge a woman's story of how she got to be pregnant?

[JadedAtheist]

We're not all walking around weeping inside over it.

I have no doubt about it, though I suspect it's a rare reaction not to get upset based on the reactions of abortions I have heard of. I think the sadness springs about from a feeling deep down that they "murdered their baby". I'm not saying that's an accurate feeling to have, but I suspect that is the root cause of their reaction (which could be as you said, cultural indoctrination).

[pratt]

I have 2 sisters.

 

One had an abortion when she was 17, because she was not ready for it. My other sister had a miscarriage when she was 27/28, and the fetus was not viable and she aborted it. I was not there to judge my sisters, and I will not judge them on their decisions, then or now..

 

Pro-life, as in anti-abortion, anti-pro-chice,,,,, i think is just a stance someone would take, regardless the religious affliliation. it would be a personal choice. God in christianity is not exactly pro-life as some may assume.

 

Should a person be pro-choice? Depending on the individual to define life begins I would presume.

 

But for me, As long as it it clinical and safe to abort, and the choice is all up to the woman carrying the fetus and I don't have to make that decision.

[pandora]

The vast majority of women have abortions before 12 weeks.  Those after that done for the life of the mother or deformities and defects.   Focusing on this 24 week thing seems like a distraction from the real issues.

 

My body, my life.   If I take birth control and it fails, and I decide I don't want to go through pregnancy or live with the thought of another grown human being thinking I abandoned them, that is my choice and I abhor any attempts to restrict my rights to do so.  An embryo cannot feel pain or even be aware of its existence on any level before 12 weeks.  Abortion is a necessary evil, at its worst... and not the horrible holocaust it is portrayed as.  VERY FEW women use abortion as the sole means of birth control.   We need to focus more on making pregnancy and baby-raising affordable and providing cheap and easy access to birth control that jives with a particular woman's body. For instance, the one that works for me without nasty side effects is $60 a month.  We need to stop demonizing normal, compassionate women as inhumane and selfish.   

 

To those who want to force women to bear children, who will take care of them?  There are not enough people willing to adopt minority babies or babies from low-income mothers.   The foster care system is overrun because of the selfish and uppity attitudes of people who say they want to adopt.   Making abortion illegal will do nothing to stop it.  It will just cause more women to die in the pursuit of a life free from child-bearing and raising before they are ready.

 

How many of you men truly would know what you would do in her shoes?  I really wish men would stop pontificating on this issue and let us make our own decisions.  

 

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/2hVSFh__xss?feature=player_embedded" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[pandora]

 

We're not all walking around weeping inside over it.

I have no doubt about it, though I suspect it's a rare reaction not to get upset based on the reactions of abortions I have heard of. I think the sadness springs about from a feeling deep down that they "murdered their baby". I'm not saying that's an accurate feeling to have, but I suspect that is the root cause of their reaction (which could be as you said, cultural indoctrination).

And it is cultural indoctrination that makes you think that most women have horrible reactions to their abortions.   Seriously.   Most of us are just fine.  1 in 3 of us have had one by the time we are 45.    I felt sad at the loss of what could have been if I were in a different position financially and socially, but the freedom and relief I gained from it far outweighed any negative emotions.  I felt merciful and free to continue to live my life as I deemed best, and those are the overriding emotions to this day.   The negative emotions I felt the days following the procedure were likely attributed to crazy pregnancy hormones!  Once those died down, I never looked back and have had no shame.

 

Abortion is sad, but all we mourn is the loss of potential, which isn't even a real thing being potential and all.   There is plenty of potential to be had out there without a world overrun with unwanted children.    Women always have and always will seek to end their pregnancies when they are unplanned.   No law or man's opinion will prevent it from happening.  I don't disagree that a fetus is a human and a life on a sort of a continuum, but whose rights matter more, a potential human being's, or a walking, living woman's?  

[mymistake]

Wow Pandora, that was a really good vid.

 

I support abortion in the first trimester as birth control.  Granted, it's not cheap so it's doesn't make for a good primary plan.   Abortion is always the last line of defense in birth control but people who are there should be allowed to use abortion that way.  Also since society as a whole benefits from birth control our tax dollar should pick up the bill on affordable birth contorl for all women of child bearing age.

 

Being a parent is the hardest thing I have ever done in my life.  Messing it up has long reaching consequenses with so much suffering.  Anybody who thinks they are not ready for any reason at all should be allowed a way out.

[R. S. Martin]

 

We're not all walking around weeping inside over it.

I have no doubt about it, though I suspect it's a rare reaction not to get upset based on the reactions of abortions I have heard of. I think the sadness springs about from a feeling deep down that they "murdered their baby". I'm not saying that's an accurate feeling to have, but I suspect that is the root cause of their reaction (which could be as you said, cultural indoctrination).

 

I think another option besides sadness for losing the child that should be taken into consideration is hormone swings. Ending a pregnancy upsets hormones, which can cause strange emotional reactions, a common one of which is weepiness. I'm not so familiar with pregnancies ending in abortion but I would guess it's not that much different from postpartum depression when a pregnancy ends in birth. Such depression can be anywhere from mild crying spells to severely suicidal. Maybe someone here has experience and can speak to it more directly. What I'm saying is that I'd not necessarily take it as a sign that abortion is bad; it's just the end of a pregnancy with its accompanying hormone upset. This seems to impact some women much more than others.

[pandora]

 

 

We're not all walking around weeping inside over it.

I have no doubt about it, though I suspect it's a rare reaction not to get upset based on the reactions of abortions I have heard of. I think the sadness springs about from a feeling deep down that they "murdered their baby". I'm not saying that's an accurate feeling to have, but I suspect that is the root cause of their reaction (which could be as you said, cultural indoctrination).

 

I think another option besides sadness for losing the child that should be taken into consideration is hormone swings. Ending a pregnancy upsets hormones, which can cause strange emotional reactions, a common one of which is weepiness. I'm not so familiar with pregnancies ending in abortion but I would guess it's not that much different from postpartum depression when a pregnancy ends in birth. Such depression can be anywhere from mild crying spells to severely suicidal. Maybe someone here has experience and can speak to it more directly. What I'm saying is that I'd not necessarily take it as a sign that abortion is bad; it's just the end of a pregnancy with its accompanying hormone upset. This seems to impact some women much more than others.

Yes, this.

 

Pregnancy hormones do something to our brains and emotional control centers... and they affect some of us more than others.  I am one who would probably end up suicidal after childbirth... just being a few weeks along made me crazy enough!

[msipsy218]

Should an atheist be pro-life? If they want to be....

 

That's what I love about it. There is no rule book. Be what you want to be.

 

Personally, I go back and forth. I don't know when a fetus becomes a baby in my mind. Probably around the time it would be viable outside of the womb (24 weeks or so) but maybe even before that. I lost a pregnancy at 12 weeks and it felt very much like the loss of a baby to me. But I'm not opposed to women having abortions at 12 weeks either.

 

I had my first daughter at 17 and some parts of me wish I would have had an abortion. It's hard, because I love my daughter, but could I have had a better life? Doesn't matter now. But yea, it's not really a "oh I'm this" or "I'm definitely that" kind of thing for me.

[dB-Paradox]

 

I am not anti-abortion.  I believe there are times when it can and should be used.  Rape, for one.  Physical health, being another.  But "Oops, we got preggo" is not something I sympathize with the couple.  Either raise the baby, or give it up for adoption.  I'm sure there are plenty of same sex couples that would LOVE to have a new addition to their home!

 

Curious, how exactly does this work. Shall we elect you to be the one to judge a woman's story of how she got to be pregnant?

 

 

Really?  Why resort to this below the belt shot?

 

"I *personally* am pro-life..."

"I am not anti-abortion."

"But "Oops, we got preggo" is not something I sympathize with the couple."

 

These are my personal convictions and nothing more.  Any woman should have the right to get an abortion for any reason at all, but why does that mean I have to agree with her decisions?  I was quite disappointed to read your response, to say the least.  I felt I was being quite honest and fair and your response sounded like it was coming from a place of sarcasm.  Why so?

[JadedAtheist]

And it is cultural indoctrination that makes you think that most women have horrible reactions to their abortions

I haven't had a lot of discussions about abortion with women who've had them; only my mother, a friend's girlfriend and her friend and another person I know. So out of the 5 I know, all had negative reactions. The only non chalant reaction I have heard of was about some woman posting about it on twitter a while back. So, my belief is mostly a conclusion based on personal testimonies not cultural indoctrination. You and Akheia even strengthen my point by pointing out your reactions but still, that's only 7 people and perhaps the millions(?) of others have had no negative feelings at all and perhaps further abortions they may have won't register emotionally. 

[pandora]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=drZugteR8KI

[JadedAtheist]

 What I'm saying is that I'd not necessarily take it as a sign that abortion is bad

I wasn't arguing that, my point is basically this: Sex can have consequences even if you do the right thing and use protection/contraception and people should take it pretty seriously and weigh the potential cost. The consequences are there regardless of one's stance on abortion and people should weigh the pros and cons.Even if we are to assume no negative emotional reaction at all, one consequence would still be the cost of the abortion for example.