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Goodbye Jesus

Should An Atheist Be Pro Life?


SquareOne

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You are a guy, and luckily you never have to live through the whole dilemma. I'm pretty sure you would see it differently if you did. 

 

Lucky, yes I suppose.  And maybe I would see it differently, maybe I would not - but my personal opinion on the issue would not mean that I was right.

 

Not that I'm claiming to have all the answers as it it, now.

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Well I'll be darned.  Isn't biology amazing!

 

Well, I've not had long to think about this, but on the face of it, I wouldn't call a chimera two people.  The DNA is clearly fused together in one entity; which is different to a mother and child, where the separate DNA is contained exclusively in the foetus.

 

But heck, I could be wrong.

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You've been claiming precisely that for, oh, 9 pages now. But maybe you're evolving a bit. As I said: there's hope for everybody.

 

There is nothing magic about DNA. There's DNA in every cell in your body and you shed DNA constantly without even thinking about it. A nose job whacks more DNA out of your body than a 9-weeks abortion (most abortions happen before then). Hell, a sneeze takes more DNA away from you. Most of our DNA is junk, did you know that? We're bags of viruses and old bits of programming that never quite got around to leaving. Accidents in DNA like chimerae show us that nothing most people think about DNA is really certain. (Source: http://www.cracked.com/article_19161_the-6-creepiest-things-hiding-in-your-dna.html ) A fetus isn't magical either. Women make eggs every month. They're one-half of the DNA that ends up in a person. A man makes sperm every day. That's the other half. Sometimes the two halves meet. The resulting egg will probably be flushed before the woman bearing it even knows it was there. If it makes its way through a gauntlet of potential problems, eventually it gets implanted and its mother's body treats it like an organ transplant, right down to rejecting the egg/zygote/fetus sometimes like a mismatched organ would be rejected.

 

Sometimes the woman wants the fetus there; sometimes she knows it'd be more of an imposition than she can handle. But one thing she does know if she doesn't want it there: that she has the right to rebel against slavery, and that she has the right to refuse consent to her body's use. 1 in 3 women... they can't all be stupid sluts.

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I believe in pro-choice but that does not mean I am not pro-life. My mother was pro-choice. Every mother that ever lived and had a baby is pro-choice. They chose when to have a baby. An abortion is the last choice to ending a pregnancy. The more contraception choices available reduces the number of abortions. Pro-choice is the option of choosing when to have a child or not have children. Pro-choice is not the opposite of pro-life, it is the same thing.

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Well folks, it's late here in Blighty.  I'm going to hit the hay.  Cya later!

 

zDcF7.gif

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Get some of that curry stuff before bedtime. I hear it makes interesting dreams.

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Have you never eaten curry?

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You should be whatever you want to be, there is no wrong answer and there is no right one.

I'm pro life (common sense applies), I value all life.

That is completely right for me, I am not arrogant or egotistical enough to believe this should apply to everyone.

That being said, I'm also free to build my social world around people who mostly feel the same way.

Doesn't mean anyone is wrong for feeling differently.

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I am not arrogant or egotistical enough to believe this should apply to everyone.

 

But are you arrogant and egotistical enough to believe that it is right to believe that there is no right answer?

 

That question might sound a bit cheeky.  But I do believe it is a good point.  When people say "there is no right answer", that is just as bold a claim as saying "there is a right answer, and I know what it is".

 

That's why for me, I say, "I don't know if there's a right answer".

 

(Though of course, you could apply my own logic back on that statement, and say, "How do you know that it is right to think you do not know if there's a right answer?")

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It still sounds like you're more concerned about being right than about making abortions less necessary. Can't really blame you. If you only have a hammer, everything looks like a nail--and if you're passionately interested in the law, then you're going to use that same mindset on complex issues like personal liberty and privacy. May I suggest you stop trying to win arguments? That's why I was asking you to adopt a null stance: passionately argue AGAINST interfering with a woman's private decisions. Convince me why it's arrogant and harmful for you to force another human being into subjugation to another entity. Demonstrate that fetuses aren't magical--in other words that they do not enjoy extra-special rights over others, that they aren't "people" as we understand the term. Why is that such a threatening idea? That's how scientists think, you know: they make a hypothesis and then try to falsify it. Here's a link I think you'd benefit to read. Simply put, lawyer-thinking isn't appropriate in all venues, and this is one of those.

 

Just as Christians can use all the logic they want but will never be able to logic themselves into a real god, you can use all the legalese you want but will never argue yourself into a position where it's okay to undermine someone else's private medical decision.

 

Every single woman who has an elective abortion has a story to tell, and that story is going to involve societal dysfunction at some level. I really urge you to seek out those stories.

 

Nothing kills dogmatic thinking faster than discovering its harmful effects upon real people.

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I am pro-choice, not anti-life. (I'm also against the death penalty)

 

It's a health issue, not a legal or political one. I don't think anyone can say when the 'cutoff' should be - because each situation needs to be taken on it's own circumstances - and who knows the circumstances better than the person facing them? No, until I've walked a mile in someone else's shoes I should just STFU.

 

Like I said earlier, if you don't adopt high needs children or otherwise seriously contribute to making the world a much better place for mothers and children, I don't care much about what you have to say about abortion.

 

According to WHO: 500,000 women die each year during pregnancy, childbirth and in the immediate perinatal period, and 10.6 million babies  per year,  in the world - because of the lack of birth control, proper education, maternal support and proper medical care. This is the state of maternal care in the world.

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I don't think anyone can say when the 'cutoff' should be - because each situation needs to be taken on it's own circumstances

So do you reject any rule akin to the 24 week rule?  I asked this before but I don't think you answered.  Would you advocate access to legal abortion right up until birth?  (That's access to, not would you do it yourself).  That's a genuine, unloaded question.

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I don't think anyone can say when the 'cutoff' should be - because each situation needs to be taken on it's own circumstances

So do you reject any rule akin to the 24 week rule?  I asked this before but I don't think you answered.  Would you advocate access to legal abortion right up until birth?  (That's access to, not would you do it yourself).  That's a genuine, unloaded question.

 

I hope you don't mind if I take a crack at answering this. 

 

Personally, yes I would. Because in all my years working in OB/GYN medicine as a record transcriptionist and from being an advocate in this debate, I have honestly not seen any sort of necessity of this rule. 

 

By 24 weeks, what you are dealing with is a WANTED pregnancy with parents who were planning on having and raising children. Somehow, somewhere the pregnancy has gone drastically wrong and the prognosis is dire. The fetus either has no hope of surviving without pain and death because of severe deformity, or the mother is dying. 

 

I hear a lot of pro-lifers saying they believe exceptions for non-viability and the life of the mother should be made, yet they never stop to think that is exactly what a late-term abortion IS. They think a late-term abortion is being done on a healthy fetus for a healthy mother and that simply is not the case. In countries where abortion is restriction-less, it's pretty much unheard of. You have to induce labor for a past-viability fetus, and that's not something your average OB is going to risk doing because, to put it simply, it's dangerous. 

 

In countries where abortion is illegal, has restrictions, or is hard to access, women simply do not want to be pregnant are forced to wait much longer to get the care they need. Fetuses grow fast, and every week you wait, you risk pushing them over the viability line and basically creating a nightmarish moral mess that would have been a billion times better off if you had just left it legal and fully accessible. Pretty much all you're doing is making sure another woman dies along with the baby. 

 

There simply is no way to involve laws in this matter without them simply working against the idea of saving the unborn. There is lots we can do to make sure that all conceived infants are planned for and abortion becomes a little-used procedure, but we have to get off this idea that laws, the government, and punishment actually have an affect.  

 

Unfortunately, that's not going to happen because the anti-choice side is all about punishment...not the unborn. The unborn are simply a nice meat shield for what they're really saying, which is "You sluts should be punished for having sex." 

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Guest MadameX

Oh please Kurari don't confuse with facts!!

 

This ain't 'pro-life' at all. I don't hear endless diatribes on Family Radio and Christian Network on how many elderly people have been killed by refusal to employ every life prolonging measure possible. Where are the anti-war protests, that one really puzzles me. How about the mundane, like diarrhea that kills millions of *born* children every year. This ain't 'pro-life' at all, this is anti-abortion.

 

Maybe it's because I just read a couple great anthropology books that are heavily influenced by evolutionary psychology, but I cannot help but see this issue as one of males absolutely enraged by females in control of their sexuality. It's the fertile females that are fought over, like our nasty cousins the chimpanzees.

 

It's easier, apparently, to punish women basically for being women, than it is to sincerely address the many complex circumstances that force them to resort to abortion.

 

ETA

You anti-abortion people may want to consider the questions posed here:

 

http://bigthink.com/daylight-atheism/questions-for-pro-lifers

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I disagree with this idea. In my view, the foetus is a separate being. It has separate DNA.

 

So, how many beings is a chimera?

 

Edit -- I see you have partially covered this, but really, what is the difference here between a woman and a fetus and a person who is a chimera?

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I don't think anyone can say when the 'cutoff' should be - because each situation needs to be taken on it's own circumstances

 

I think there are some adults who need to be aborted.

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A Kurari said, and I did state earlier, I've been through a late term therapeutic abortion (yup that's what it said on the forms) rare, traumatic to say the very least, and dangerous.

 

and I'm not on trial here.

 

It's a red herring... "save the babeeeeezz!"

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Guest MadameX

Ravenstar, wow, thank you for sharing your story. 

 

So, quite a few states here have worked to make 1st trimester surgical abortion difficult to obtain and costly. Delaying tactics. So desperate women are forced to have a second trimester abortion.

 

Yet it would be pretty easy to avoid these unplanned pregnancies in the first place by making birth control easy to get. Somehow that is not what is happening. Why is that? btw abstinence-only has been shown again and again to not work. People have sex. Reality - deal with it.

 

(Ravenstar I am not referencing your experience obviously)

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Ravenstar

 

Thanks for your reply.  You don't state it specifically, but I am going to infer that you do support legal access to abortion right up until birth, at the ultimate discretion of the mother.  If that is not your position, please forgive me for drawing the wrong inference, and please correct me.)

 

I will also infer, based on what you said earlier, that the justification for this this is that until birth the foetus is dependent upon the mother, and should not be regarded a separate person.  (Again, if that is not your position, please forgive me for drawing the wrong inference, and please correct me.)

 

If that is your position - I would say that your position is actually more coherent and logical than the current British law with the 24 week rule.  It has a non-arbitrary cut-off point (birth) based on an actual physically observable change (the end of dependency).  It is not arbitrary.

 

Unfortunately, despite the fact that I see it as more logical, it remains more objectionable to me.  If a pregnancy could be theoretically aborted at 8 1/2 months, based on the sole discretion of the mother, then regardless of how often it would happen in practise, you therefore leave the legal door open to the destruction of a foetus that is very much viable.

 

I'm obviously not saying that you would personally think it moral to abort a baby at 8 1/2 months.  Though your position seems to be that another woman should have that option available.

 

 

It's a red herring... "save the babeeeeezz!"

 

What do you mean?

 

 

 

 

and I'm not on trial here.

 

Of course not.  I'm sorry if I ever make it feel that way, I really don't want to give that impression.  I am trying to learn from you.

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I think there are some adults who need to be aborted.

 

 

Thought you were 'pro-life.' Maybe not so much, then.

 

A lot of pro-choice people employ the fallacious argument that it's hypocritical to be 'pro-life' and pro anything that ends the life of another human being. If the general pro-life belief that fetus = human then abortion = genocide. Abortions are basically a daily holocaust under their assumption. So, being against genocide doesn't mean you need to be against the death penalty, or against war or whatever. Likewise, the argument that if you don't like abortions then don't have one cannot hold if one believes the above and hence why pro-lifers seem to be so invested in the issue.

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"Unfortunately, despite the fact that I see it as more logical, it remains more objectionable to me.  If a pregnancy could be theoretically aborted at 8 1/2 months, based on the sole discretion of the mother, then regardless of how often it would happen in practise, you therefore leave the legal door open to the destruction of a foetus that is very much viable."

 

If I thought that the rabid pro-lifers wouldn't grab any and all crumbs of legal territory to push their final agenda I might consider restrictions placed AFTER the fetus is judged by medical experts to be viable outside the womb... maybe.

 

I never said 'sole discretion' -  late term termination is not something any ethical doctor (or hospital) is going to perform - just because some silly chic changes her mind about having a baby. That is ludicrous. The potential for death, sterility, and other complications and lawsuits is WAY too high. Even here in Canada three doctors have to consult and agree to perform any abortion. I'm pretty sure the hospitals' lawyers would be all over an elective 8.5 month one, considering viability can be much earlier (though NOT recommended - pre-term children have many health and developmental issues)

 

Why is it hard for people to understand that it is extremely dangerous (for both mother and child) to mess around with a late term pregnancy? These are the kind of tactics that negate the real issues - a 'red herring', a diversion from the real issues. It's akin to a sensationalized headline that really has little to do with the story. It's meant to manipulate EMOTIONS (ie: SAVE THE BABEEEZ!) It's a lot easier to get public support for a fetus that is almost fully formed than a collection of cells that isn't remotely human looking yet.  Most elective abortions happen so early in pregnancy that it isn't even a fetus yet, but still an embryo, so focusing on the VERY rare instances that are late term is patently dishonest and devalues all other arguments.

 

LOL  don't worry about it - you just talk like a lawyer and that can come across as well... talking like a lawyer!

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If I thought that the rabid pro-lifers wouldn't grab any and all crumbs of legal territory to push their final agenda I might consider restrictions placed AFTER the fetus is judged by medical experts to be viable outside the womb... maybe.

I thought you disagreed with the argument for viability, though?  Does the argument for dependency that you advanced earlier not run up until birth?

 

If it sounds like I am trying to trap you with your own words, please don't take it as a malicious effort on my part.  I am trying to bring out from you a coherent position, but if you appear to flip position, I feel I ought to question it.

 

 

I never said 'sole discretion' -  late term termination is not something any ethical doctor (or hospital) is going to perform - just because some silly chic changes her mind about having a baby. That is ludicrous.

But that means a doctor can say no to a woman's wish for termination.  Does that not mean that her right to determine what happens to her own body is curbed?

 

And, I'm surprised you say "silly chic" because I often hear the argument (not necessarily from you) that "women aren't stupid, and can make their own decision" - but you are suggesting here that sometimes the mother could be wrong.

 

 

Most elective abortions happen so early in pregnancy that it isn't even a fetus yet, but still an embryo, so focusing on the VERY rare instances that are late term is patently dishonest and devalues all other arguments.

Respectfully, I do not think it is dishonest.

 

I have not told any lies.  I have simply asked questions, and replied with my thoughts.

 

I don't have an agenda to ban all abortion.  Nor do I have an agenda to suppress women.

 

Rather, my only desire is to reach a sensible conclusion in my own conscience about why we value human life, and what qualifies as human life, and when human life should attract certain legal protections.

 

 

I have not found a solution from the pro-choice camp about this issue.

 

Unfortunately the only solution from the pro-life camp is highly impractical.

 

And so that leaves me at an impasse.  Hence, I ask questions of others, to see if I can glean wisdom from them.

 

I really don't think that's dishonest.

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Guest Babylonian Dream

Vigile: "Why? What makes future potential in an organism that can't appreciate the idea of future potential so special?  As I've said before in these debates.  Fetus doesn't care.  Why should I?"

At age 16 I was suicidal and couldn't appreciate the idea of future potential, and didn't care of I died. I even wanted to! Why should anyone have cared to stop me from taking my life? I feel bad now, it put my older brother through alot of emotional trauma on top of what he already went through, but I in retrospect, I see that the individual's potential for caring doesn't matter so much so. Ending a life, or a potential life before it begins, is something that I'm just uncomfortable with. I'm glad my mom was a fundie though, otherwise I'd have been aborted.

 

I'm not against abortion, I just don't like it. It is a "necessary evil".

 

SquareOne, you're still left with trying to explain why a fetus should get more rights than someone else. If the only way you could survive was by crawling into my uterus, I'd still have the right to tell you to fuck off. There's not a real way you could justify forcing me to risk my life and endure unimaginable pain for you. So imagine how much less I care if a teeny tiny comma-sized egg and subsequent 1/4" zygote is making such a demand? My vagina, my rules. My uterus, my rules. Seems pretty damn simple to me. The contents of my uterus are not up for your examination or consideration any more than my vagina is. I don't have to fuck someone you think I have to fuck, and I don't have to have a baby you think I should have. I'm not sure why you're making it into some big production.

 

You're still hung up also on using very absurd emotional pleas to justify your repressive mindset. That you blithely compare an abortion to a woman shooting someone is a good example of your rigid and dogmatic thinking. That's so far past ridiculous that I don't even think you think that's the case, so why would you ascribe such an atrocity to a woman seeking an abortion? By having an abortion, a woman is not shooting a precious magical baby fetus. She's removing her body's hospitality from play. It's no different than me refusing to donate a kidney to you at your request, or refusing to let you, a fully grown adult, crawl into my uterus for your sustenance. It's removing consent to being bodily utilized by another. I wish you could understand how horrifying the idea is to me, but the one time I tried to tell you what it was like, my words whooshed right over your head. Go read 'em again. It's the thing about the cage. There is nothing, nothing in the world, like your body being someone else's to command. Doesn't matter if it's a rape, or it's being told you can't marry someone you love, or being enslaved, or being forced to go through a pregnancy you don't want. It's about the cruelest thing I can possibly imagine doing to someone. There is no human dignity to it, and no compassion. As a dude in a country where slavery is outlawed, I'm guessing you don't have much experience with this idea. As a woman in a country where my rights are by no means assured by law, I'm here to tell you it is not awesome.

 

I do view abortion as a religious issue and as a women's rights issue. A big part of why I "deconverted" from the forced-birth position was finding out just how controlling and misogynistic "pro-life" people are toward women. The "pro-life" platform relies upon lies, misinformation, deception, and emotional manipulation. You sound like you do much the same thing with your weird false choices and bizarre comparisons. Those tactics aren't going to work if I don't accept your central premise, that fetuses are intrinsically valuable and must be protected and nurtured at (hopefully not) all costs.

 

You need to follow this thing through and look at why it's become such a divisive issue. It wasn't, until conservative politicians in the US decided to hop into bed with the Catholic Church. Then suddenly abortion, which had been viewed as a private matter that wasn't up to others' judgements, suddenly became an awesome way to get votes. And the race began! The Catholic Church, and now the conservative Christian faiths, are completely buggy about reproduction. And I can see why. If you want to control women, controlling their fertility is the #1 step to doing that. When biology is destiny, it's really easy to keep women in their place. The "pro-life" mindset does not actually value life, but having babies whether the mother wants them or not--to make sex scary and the penalties huge, and to hopefully roll back women's rights in the process. They don't actually do much to improve life or reduce the number of abortions, do they? If you watch carefully, you'll see the "pro-life" religious right admit the real agenda: getting women to stop having unapproved sex. Whether that's your ultimate goal or not, by advocating the criminalization of abortion you are doing two things: first, you aren't doing a damned thing to actually reduce the number of abortions with such laws, and second, you are working hand-in-glove with people who are very deliberately trying to make your country into a theocracy, and who view such laws as the necessary first step to getting the public on board with the rest of the agenda.

 

So... do you want to actually reduce the number of abortions, or do you just want to control women and make sex all scary again?

I get the sense that that's why christians tend to want to limit it. They spout their "keep your legs closed then" rhetoric, it makes it obvious. It's never that simple. Though not everyone has this in mind. I certainly don't. I don't want to reduce the number of abortions per se, I'd rather we do things that make them less necessary though. Though I'm sure the women who are having abortions are likely to want the same thing, to not have to. Both sides tend to oversimplify this. Though I don't think he means for women to have less rights than a fetus.

 

 

I am not anti-abortion.  I believe there are times when it can and should be used.  Rape, for one.  Physical health, being another.  But "Oops, we got preggo" is not something I sympathize with the couple.  Either raise the baby, or give it up for adoption.  I'm sure there are plenty of same sex couples that would LOVE to have a new addition to their home!

 

Curious, how exactly does this work. Shall we elect you to be the one to judge a woman's story of how she got to be pregnant?

Yeah, and I can see alot of women crying "rape" (justifiably) just to get an abortion with this. I think such restrictions will only make things worse. They'll then try to ban it for cases of rape due to false claims of it.

 

Kurari: "I have HAD an abortion. 

 

You know what the hardest thing about that is? That nobody ever wants to talk to you. They want to talk AT you. They want to tell you all their opinions, fantasies, and ideologies about when life begins and how precious it is. They want to show you their high-rez pictures of dead fetuses that they just got off the press at Kinkos in hopes of hurting you and shaming you as much as possible.

 

I can't really tell you how many times people have launched into telling me what goes on during an abortion like I wasn't...y'know...there. That'd be funny if it wasn't so insanely stupid. I mean seriously, you're telling a woman who's had an abortion about the "abortion factory" and "abortionists?"

 

It's kinda amazing how willing people are to look like idiots sometimes. I keep thinking I've seen it all and then someone else comes along and proves me wrong. I rather hate it when that happens.  "

I'm sorry you had to deal with that. If it's any consolation to you, I like to give "Bible Lessons" whenever I see protestors in front of planned parenthood. They're always there, and they irk the crap out of me. The people who do this lack reason and what they are doing is abusive and they should be sued. It is harassment. It's not an easy decision for most people who get abortions I'm sure, so they go and make the decision even harder just to try to get their own way. It's disgusting.

 

"

 

 


 

The year was 2000. I was 22 and a college student working in a computer lab at school for minimum wage. I was slowly putting myself through college at the time and living at home caring for my very physically and mentally ill mother. I had been in a long-term monogamous relationship for about three years with my beloved fiance at the time. Like for many American youths, it was a vulnerable time and a trial by fire for the both of us trying to get on our feet as independent adults.

 

I was alerted to the pregnancy because I was nauseated all the time, gaining weight inexplicably, and chronically thirsty. Recognizing what was happening, I went to my local Planned Parenthood and they confirmed it with a test. I was 7 weeks along.

 

It was a horrible shock to my fiance and I. We had been so careful using condoms and pills consistently, but it was a fluke chance.

Seeing my stricken face, the doctor asked me gently, "How would you like to proceed with your care? I can give you brochures on all your options."

 

I said without hesitation, "I want an abortion."

 

"Are you sure?" She asked. "Would you like any brochures on adoption or family planning?"

 

"No."


She nodded at me, clearly giving me respect that I understood what I needed for my healthcare and not pressing the issue. We set up the appointment.

 

My fiance was there for me the entire time agreed wholeheartedly that this was the right decision without question. The abortion itself took place a week later and was nothing like what the propaganda makes you believe. It was surprisingly mundane. The Planned Parenthood clinic was a pretty ordinary doctor's office. I was treated very kindly by female staff who all understood that I was severely stressed out, and my doctor was a very sweet grandmother. I felt very supported and was treated with the utmost respect.

 

The start of it was pretty much like going in for a routine annual exam. They put my feet in the stirrups and explained to me that they were going to use seaweed rods called laminaria sticks to help dilate my cervix. There was a lot of waiting around as that took effect, and I read a magazine while it did. I didn't feel much of anything except for a little cramping.

 

While that was going on, they took an ultrasound so they could see where the embryo had implanted itself to make sure the surgery was as easy on me as possible. They didn't want to go blindly mucking about in my insides and risk me getting an infection.

It was not required for anyone to show the screen to me and it was turned away, but I looked at the nurse and asked, "May I see?"

She eyed me askance and said, "Are you sure?"

I nodded and said, "Yes. I need to know."

She nodded knowingly and turned around the screen for me. She pointed out the little black blob there.

 

I blurted out, "That's IT?"

 

She nodded to me and said neutrally, "Yup, that's it."

 

It was at that very instance I knew I was doing the right thing for all of us involved. The embryo was not going to suffer one iota. My mom was. My fiance was. I was. I would not and could not let that happen. It would have been so irresponsible and selfish of me to take myself away from them for a pregnancy I didn't even want, and it would be selfish and irresponsible of me to do that to this embryo. It may not have had the capability to care about anything at that moment, but it would one day, and I believe very firmly that all children should be born wanted. I cared very much about its future, and the fact it deserved better than to just be born because it existed.


The nurse asked if I was OK and if I wanted to stop. I said, "No. I want to finish for sure now."

 

The rest of the procedure was fairly short. They used a machine that was a little like a large vacuum cleaner with a thin hose and a little instrument with a loop on the end. It wasn't very scary looking. Just another random piece of medical technology. I think the worst of it was the noise was a little startling, but that was it. There was no blood, no silent screams, no nothing. I felt some moderate cramping, but that was it. It was over within just a few minutes.

 

 

Afterwards, they had me rest for a bit in a quiet room and gave me some juice and food to help me feel better. Kind of like what they do for you after giving blood. It helps clear your head.

 

After that, they helped me rework a better plan for some pills that actually worked for me. I was good as new within two days. 

I've never doubted my decision since. I've never developed health problems because of it. I was able to fulfill my responsibilities as an adult to my family and get through my schooling and become a contributing member of society. That would not have happened if I had not been able to get the care I desperately needed then.

 

I regret nothing.

 

Hope that clears up some lies for ya. If anybody has questions for me, don't be shy. Ask me. Even if you think it'd be offensive or graphic. I'd love it if you would. I've been in this debate for 13 years now. Sling 'em at me. I've heard it all. Hell, if you're mad and just want to get into a fight with me, feel free. I just LOVE sinking my teeth into some pro-liars.

.... Actually, instead of regretting it, I'm glad you're proud of it. You didn't put another child and yourself through poverty by going through with it, and you are better off for it. It's frustrating that people can't see how wrong it is, from a human rights perspective, to put a mother and child through that. Say the child was born, earning minimum wage you can forget your future. As for taking care of the child, good luck. Foster care and adoption? There are alot of kids in the system, and the picture is far from "okay", much less pretty. You did the right thing. :)

 

Thank you for your story, it adds perspective that is often lacking in this discussion.

 

Kurari, thanks for your story.

 

I also had a surgical termination at about the same time (like 9 weeks?) at age 21 in similar circumstances and had a similar experience. I was nothing but relieved and grateful I had that option.

 

It was an incredibly difficult time. I was shocked and horrified to be in that position and felt betrayed by my body.

 

Oh did y'all know that antibiotics can reduce the efficiency of the birth control pill? You can be as conscientious as you should be and still manage to ovulate.

 

Later went on to have a daughter, after an uneventful healthy planned pregnancy with my wonderful husband. She is now a smart, funny, very together young person who is ready to go out and make the world a better place after getting into med school. Actually, before even - she is a long time volunteer at the medical center, a soup kitchen, and an English language tutor.

 

Not so easy having our second child. Had at least three miscarriages, at around 11 weeks, the stage where the placenta takes over. Probably due to my age, hormones were not kicking in properly, or very likely the embryos were genetically blighted and incompatible with life. Progesterone supplements eventually addressed the situation and we have an awesome son, too. He is super smart, creative, kind, healthy, happy and a joy.

 

Or did 'god' decide to call those embryos to heaven a little ahead of schedule (rolling eyes)

 

Like you sure I will take on anyone who has never been in our shoes yet feels they can rule on our actions. I have always worked for a living and put myself through college, have many devoted friends, am a volunteer at hospice where I hold the hands of the dying, teach Sunday School, have a loving 25 year marriage. I am anyone you know. Look around you. A significant number of the women you see have been in circumstances that forced that same decision. Like many medical situations, the patient is forced to make choices between things that are bad or worse or worser.

 

ETA: I am glad to have children now though they are incredibly expensive and I sometimes think people like us shouldn't have kids because of that. I work to support my family and i don't get paid a whole lot. I have never had a job that provided maternity leave, barely have retirement funds and no savings. I had no family to help me watch my kids while we worked. And one point I took time off to raise my kids and came back to the workplace at a huge disadvantage because if it. This country lags behind most developed countries and is not a very friendly place for women who work and support a family. I have a friend who had two kids, was married, and pregnant with a third - which she aborted because she just could not handle another child. apparently, there is a large number of married women who have abortions for the same reasons. We have to look at WHY women seek abortion and address those issues.

 

Done for now, gotta go.

Thank you for your story. It does help to get perspective.
 

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At age 16 I was suicidal and couldn't appreciate the idea of future potential, and didn't care of I died. I even wanted to!.

 

I'm not sure why some can't see the difference between a 16 yo sentient human being and a multi-celled organism that will one day be sentient. 

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