Email From Former Mentor

[Lerk]

I personally think your first reply was sufficient, and my experience debating things via email and in forums would, today, cause me to drop it at this point.

 

If there's one thing you might point out to him, it's to answer this: "If God is nonexistent, how can we explain everything in existence?"

 

There are several possible explanations for everything in existence, but there is no explanation for God. "God" is a substitute for "I don't know." It's a way to pretend that I do know.

 

But, like I said, your first reply was excellent, but another reply will only lead to another, and another.

[ConureDelSol]

This is what I got back. I believe he is being sincere. I'm going to take some more time to mull it over before I reply. I won't try to explain myself because he won't understand and I shouldn't feel the need to justify my thoughts or feelings. I want to end the conversation without being rude. I'll think about it lol. Anyway, here it is:

 

Thanks for "winning the debate" to reply Michelle. Lol. Things are good between us. I (and others who care) are merely trying to stand between you and an eternity separated from God. I don't know if anyone else is standing in the gap for you but I am. I know you don't want to debate or argue doctrine. It's not my intent. I do wonder what changed your heart from loving the Lord to denying Him. You don't owe me any explanations, I know. We don't have to answer to each other so much as we have to answer to our creator. Something convinced you that the bible is fallible and not sufficient. It takes faith to believe, and discernment to understand it. It's only given by God. If God is nonexistent, how can we explain everything in existence? Without Him, nothing would exist. We cannot fathom that, believer or not. You mentioned that it did not work for you. Did you not once believe? When did it stop working for you? Was I wrong in believing? Am I wrong now for believing? I know you wouldn't try to convince me not to believe. I cannot deny the truth. Even if I did, it would still be truth. I am burdened for you. I don't mind saying so because your my friend. Don't give up Michelle.

"If you seek me with all of your heart, you will find me". Jeremiah 29:13

 

"You don't owe me any explanations.  Now excuse me while I proceed to get explanations from you."

[Ellwood]

But, like I said, your first reply was excellent, but another reply will only lead to another, and another.

 

This is so true.  Your former mentor considers himself to be the "good" shepherd who goes looking for that lost sheep and NEVER gives up.   You have to send the signal loud and clear that you don't want to be "found" so please STOP looking for me.

[RipVanWinkle]

msipsy218: Is there anything more arrogant than a person who says he's 100% sure of his beliefs and also says you have to have faith? But you certainly have no obligation to respond and I know some have recommended that to you. They may be right. I don't claim to have all the answers. But if you feel that he will walk away thinking and saying that you could not answer his challenge and that is not satisfactory to you, II suggest the following: 

 

He probably is sincere, but see how nice he is if you challenge him to answer some very hard questions about that faith. He's nice as long as he thinks he is winning, or that he still can win. Like others above, I don't think anyone is going to deconvert this guy, but I don't think that should be the goal. I think it would be nice to give him some facts that are inconsistent with his faith which he can't refute. An example would be the two inconsistent stories of christ's acsension : ascending to "heaven" from two different places.

I'm sure you know many other examples. Good luck and may the force be with you.    bill

[msipsy218]

 

 

Something convinced you that the bible is fallible and not sufficient. It takes faith to believe, and discernment to understand it.

"... you poor, stupid slut."

 

How sad that you're just soooooo dense, AMIRITE? Obviously if you left you just didn't have discernment. You were disobedient. Get back in line, girlie! Put those blinkers back on! FAITH! Because you can't go using your ladybrainz on stuff.

 

>You mentioned that it did not work for you. Did you not once believe? When did it stop working for you? Was I wrong in believing? Am I wrong now for believing? I know you wouldn't try to convince me not to believe. I cannot deny the truth. Even if I did, it would still be truth. I am burdened for you. I don't mind saying so because your my friend. Don't give up Michelle.

"If you seek me with all of your heart, you will find me". Jeremiah 29:13

I'm aghast at his abusive behavior here. Your sincerity is not up for discussion or debate. He has no right to judge how much you loved his fictional deity, or how hard you tried to maintain your faith. He has no fucking right whatsoever and you have every right to be outraged at his presumption and blatant attempts at manipulation. He may attack your reasons. He may attack your arguments. But he may not ever, ever, fucking EVER attack your sincerity, because your sincerity has NOTHING to do with whether or not Christianity is true.

 

And you did not give up. You still seem very curious about the world and eager to learn all the stuff you missed out on while trapped in religion.

 

This guy is a fucking asshole. I'm really holding back here. I want to unleash the full fury of my sailor-daddy upbringing but I'm somehow managing to restrain myself to the "7 Words You Can't Say on Television". He is abusive, manipulative, makes a number of presumptuous and callous assumptions about you as a person, attacks your sincerity, implies that you're stupid and willful, and flat-out tells you he doesn't want you to tell him why you left if it involves actual facts and rational arguments.

 

YOU'RE A STUPID SLUT BUT BABY THERE'S STILL HOPE FOR US.

 

Jesus fucking fishsticks, does this bullshit actually work on anybody?

 

 

You made my day here. Just so you know that.

 

"Ladybrainz"

 

 

Do you still want to have a relationship with this guy?

 

There's the million dollar question. I had a lot of respect for him. I was close to his daughter for a moment. He works with my dad and his wife works with my stepmom (fucking small towns) and they hang out and blah blah. But I'm pissed. Do I ever want to see or speak to him again? No. Do I think that is possible? No.

 

 

In response to this...

 

"I know you wouldn't try to convince me not to believe."

 

I'd reply with something like this:

 

"No one convinced me not to believe, either... But here I am.  If it does all come crashing down for you the same way it did for me, just remember that you know somebody who's been there too.  I may not be able to give you your faith back, but it might help to talk it out."

 

I like that. It's genuinely how I feel. "You are shitting on me now but if you ever find yourself alone and being treated the way you are treating me, you have a safe place."

 

I personally think your first reply was sufficient, and my experience debating things via email and in forums would, today, cause me to drop it at this point.

 

Experience speaks the loudest..

 

My thoughts....

"Things are good between us. I (and others who care) are merely trying to stand between you and an eternity separated from God. I don't know if anyone else is standing in the gap for you but I am."

 

I believe that he really believes that he is trying to save me from eternal hell. That comes from a good place. But to say it like that, to announce that he is going to go out of his way to "save" me....what do you want bro? A cookie? I don't want your fucking help. And why even bring that shit up? To try to scare me back into the church? I spent 4 years preaching eternal hell to scared teenagers....this motherfucker knows I know about it. Why bring it up unless to try to scare me?

 

I do wonder what changed your heart from loving the Lord to denying Him. You don't owe me any explanations, I know.

 

So he says he wants to know. Should I tell him? I don't know. I'm not sure I want to open myself up to that kind of scrutiny. But would it make me feel better to be heard? Would he listen anyway? Probably no.

 

We don't have to answer to each other so much as we have to answer to our creator.

 

Oh shut the fuck up.

 

Something convinced you that the bible is fallible and not sufficient. It takes faith to believe, and discernment to understand it. It's only given by God.

 

So....god convinced me? He's the one that didn't "give" me the faith and discernment, right? So it's his fault I don't believe?

 

 

If God is nonexistent, how can we explain everything in existence? Without Him, nothing would exist. We cannot fathom that, believer or not.

 

I don't feel the need to have an answer to everything, but it is clear that the answer is NOT god. Has he actually read that fucking book he quotes so much? If the goal is to explain everything, explain to me how a 600 year old man fit every species in existence into one fucking boat for 40 days and 40 nights. Oh, it takes faith? I have faith in science.

 

Did you not once believe?

 

I think I made that clear.

 

 

When did it stop working for you?

 

This one I kind of want to answer.

 

 

Was I wrong in believing? Am I wrong now for believing?

 

Yes. But wtf does this have to do with you?

 

 

I know you wouldn't try to convince me not to believe.

 

So have the same goddamn courtesy and leave me the fuck alone!!

 

 

I cannot deny the truth. Even if I did, it would still be truth.

 

Exactly.

 

 

I am burdened for you.

 

And he's back to being a martyr

 

 

I don't mind saying so because your my friend.

 

 

aka: he knows that's a dick thing to say but is convincing himself that it's ok to be a dick to me bc we're "friends"..... I didn't get xmas card from this guy or a phone call on my birthday but all of a sudden we're such great friends he can tell me how to live my life?

[owen652]

I think Astreja's reply would be perfect on its own, then just drop it.

[Lerk]

Oh, one other item. He says "Was I wrong in believing? Am I wrong now for believing?" The answer is "yes, yes, you were and are wrong for believing! Everyone who believes is wrong for doing so, because they're believing in a mythological being that is no more real than Zeus or Apollo or Jupiter or Thor or the Man in the Moon!"

[wndwalkr99]

He also doesn't know the difference between "your" and "you're". Classic lack of education. That would drive me wild.

 

I would probably proceed to edit his letter for grammatical and spelling errors and send it back to him with those corrections but no additional comments on the content.

[stryper]

He also doesn't know the difference between "your" and "you're". Classic lack of education. That would drive me wild.

 

I would probably proceed to edit his letter for grammatical and spelling errors and send it back to him with those corrections but no additional comments on the content.

 

in His defense those get screwed up all the time.  Even with a masters I still f it up pretty regularly.  When your writing emotionally things get screwed up.

[Chikirin]

I would stop further contact with this guy. If that means letting him have the last word, so be it. WHen I was a Christian, one of the most hurtful things was when an unbeliever would totally cut off contact with me. If you want to throw cold water in this guys face, nothing works so well as silence. Just ignore him. Responding to him will only strengthen his fantasy that God is using him to reach you.

 

Then again, I've got emotional problems and have difficulty making and maintaining connections, so ignoring people probably comes much easier to me than to others.

[mymistake]

I would stop further contact with this guy. If that means letting him have the last word, so be it. WHen I was a Christian, one of the most hurtful things was when an unbeliever would totally cut off contact with me. If you want to throw cold water in this guys face, nothing works so well as silence. Just ignore him. Responding to him will only strengthen his fantasy that God is using him to reach you.

 

"Let them eat static!" - Khan

Star Trek 2

[Chikirin]

from Hell's heart I stab at thee!

[Akheia]

I only saw "Wrath" once because the ear thing freaked me out so bad. But I still swoon over that speech. They picked the right guy for that role. He was made for it even more than RDJ was made for Tony Stark, and you should know that I think of that role as the litmus test for god-tier casting.

 

Msipsy, I wish "ladybrainz" was an original but it isn't--WMDKitty I think was the first person I saw to use it--but damn it's evocative.

 

I really like Astreja's idea a lot. It's short, succinct, and puts the controlling, petulant, manipulative ratbastard in his place. I don't think he really wants to learn why you left; I would be very leery of volunteering anything. He sees himself as your superior, and he's already told you that he has an agenda: bringing you back to the fold. Treat him like a bill collector, and don't tell him anything at all that could be used against you later.

 

I made that mistake a few times around when I deconverted on the few occasions anybody really talked to me about it, and learned later that my fundie preacher ex-husband had put them up to it with two goals in mind: either to re-convert me, or if he couldn't do that, to at least get enough evidence to sue my pants off for whatever he could find. Choose the targets of your honesty wisely and with great discretion. This asshat is not a safe target for such a gift as that.

[♦ ficino ♦]

Send him an old Saturday Night Live video where Dan Aykroyd tells Jane Curtin, "Jane, you ignorant slut."

 

Just kidding.

[midniterider]

 

I really like Astreja's idea a lot. It's short, succinct, and puts the controlling, petulant, manipulative ratbastard in his place. I don't think he really wants to learn why you left; I would be very leery of volunteering anything. He sees himself as your superior, and he's already told you that he has an agenda: bringing you back to the fold. Treat him like a bill collector, and don't tell him anything at all that could be used against you later.

 

Gosh, I love that: Treat him like a bill collector. :-) Very true, any information you give them will be used against you.

[pox]

He is literally unable to process the concept that someone could sincerely believe and then sincerely change her mind. It must either be sin that feels oh so good, or you never did believe properly. He's now hit both of those. I also love how your former testimony was so heartfelt and sincere, but your current position must necessarily be a lie to cover your love for all that fun sin. This is mental illness.

If you don't want to debate, don't. You could ignore most of it and just say, "Thank you. I'm glad things are still good between us. See you around." If you did want to debate, the only way to play it is to put the burden of proof on him, but that means he'll be sending you lots more emails full of Christian In-Group Jargon Blather, and you don't want that.

[msipsy218]

I sent:

 

Sorry it's taken me so long. I've not been able to sit at the computer for more than a few minutes at a time. I'm sure you understand that. Anyways, thank you for your kind words, I'm glad everything between us is good. I'll see you around

[msipsy218]

he sent back:

 

"We love you guys Michelle. Know that we're praying for you and your family. Also know that (my former church) loves you guys and your always welcome there. I've said it before and I say again, Don't give up Michelle. Search for the truth. You"ll find it. It's Jesus."

 

fucking fuck this fucking motherfucker. I tried to be nice, let it go, keep things in a happy, respectful place but he just couldn't keep his goddamn mouth shut, could he? Loud and clear....he is not my friend, he is only interested in recruiting me. I've blocked his email address and I'm taking him off of my facebook. his bitch-ass wife too.

[TrueFreedom]

Sorry, Michelle.  He's only interested in church friends.  Way to move on!  Shake the dust from your feet!

[Lerk]

I should have realized that he would insist on the last word. You sent a very final last communication, but he replied anyway. Glad you've deleted him.

[pox]

Problem solved!

[atkegar]

he sent back:

 

"We love you guys Michelle. Know that we're praying for you and your family. Also know that (my former church) loves you guys and your always welcome there. I've said it before and I say again, Don't give up Michelle. Search for the truth. You"ll find it. It's Jesus."

 

fucking fuck this fucking motherfucker. I tried to be nice, let it go, keep things in a happy, respectful place but he just couldn't keep his goddamn mouth shut, could he? Loud and clear....he is not my friend, he is only interested in recruiting me. I've blocked his email address and I'm taking him off of my facebook. his bitch-ass wife too.

You have found the truth, and that is that god is fiction. Hang in there.

[Akheia]

Jesus fucking christ that guy is a controller.

[BendyLine]

What a tool. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

[UltraJess]

Eek. Since you are both in such different places in your thought process and beliefs its nearly impossible to explain how you feel to him so it's good you didn't get into too much detail.

 

Basically IMO you shouldn't let it hit you too hard because he is on some whole distorted wave length and just can't help but try anything to convince you, and also reiterate to himself what he believes to be true to undermine any thoughts he may have to investigate your ideas or view point more. I mean he probably thinks the devil is talking to you and will try to use you to change him etc. Paranoia! So he is going to try to "bring you back" and "show you the light" instead of listening to why...

 

When we were all drinking the kool aid we may have had the same response/reaction or a version of it... I know I probably would have.

 

I hope that as time goes on you will be able to have an Un-awkward relationship with him and others from the church should you want too.

 

I know I hear a lot of people on here talking about how their church friends treated them when they left... Am I the only one who kinda have snubbed the churchers? I don't care that they aren't talking to me that much because a lot of them I wouldn't have been friends with had I not hung out with them to talk about god.

 

I mean there are a few who I want to keep around because the bond goes deeper than that, and I am careful to not get into religious talk to much with them. I just avoid the topic....

 

Now I have become closer with the friends I had before I became a holy roller and they welcomed me with open arms even tho they had to endure me trying to "save" them or see the truth about Jesus when I was "on fire".