Adrianime Posted February 1, 2013 Posted February 1, 2013 The whole foundation of religions like Christianity is circular reasoning. So I've never felt felt intimidated, swayed, convinced, or impressed by a Christian argument. Now that you all are ex-christians, do you still feel intimidated? If not, why? What is your one (or two or three, but not all) biggest reason(s) that you are no longer "under the influence" of Christianity with no chance of relapse?
Overcame Faith Posted February 1, 2013 Posted February 1, 2013 I respectfully disagree with your assessent that "The whole foundation of religions like Christianity is circular reasoning." I would say the primary foundation of Christianity is faith and it is faith that leads to, among other things, circular reasoning. But faith itself is not about reasoning. Faith is about accepting that for which there is no hard evidence and in Christianity faith is held up as the supreme virtue. Remember, when you deal with those who have faith. their faith is not about logical arguments and when one presents logical arguments to those with faith what the faithful often see is that their faith is being attacked. Christians will do whatever it takes to preserve their faith because their entire worldview depends on what they believe through faith. To lose one's faith is, for many, an earth shattering experience. Just read some of the testimonials and you will read the words of many people who experienced this extremely difficult and life-changing event. My view is that it is only when something happens to put a chink in one's faith that they are receptive to sound reasoning and then become able to begin what is for many (though not all) the arduous process of accepting that Christianity is not true. One's logical arguments and reasoning is, therefore, in my view, best left for those for whom that something happened to their faith and which caused them to doubt. Obviously, what I say does not apply to all Christians and certainly not to every exChristian on this forum. So I am generalizing based upon my own experiences and what I have read for around five years now on this forum from the numerous testimonials preserved here. 3
Adrianime Posted February 1, 2013 Author Posted February 1, 2013 I respectfully disagree with your assessent that "The whole foundation of religions like Christianity is circular reasoning." I would say the primary foundation of Christianity is faith and it is faith that leads to, among other things, circular reasoning. But faith itself is not about reasoning. Faith is about accepting that for which there is no hard evidence and in Christianity faith is held up as the supreme virtue. I do not agree. I think all decisions and beliefs take some kind of reasoning to get to. There is no reason to do anything for no reason (obviously). Circular reasoning leads to faith in a scripture-based religion, not the other way around. Please note that I'm not talking about belief in the supernatural in general, that isn't necessarily circular. I'm talking about belief in a Christian-like religion. Hypothetical talk with a Christian: A-The Christian god exists B-Why do you have faith/believe the Christian god exists? A-The bible describes god, and was either influenced by god or written by god. B-How do you know the bible was influenced or written by the Christian god? A-Well, The bible says it is. *Circular Reasoning* The bible is used to prove (the Christian) god, and god is used to validate the bible. The evidence assumes the premise. 2
Adrianime Posted February 1, 2013 Author Posted February 1, 2013 Also, you didn't answer my question in the OP.
Overcame Faith Posted February 1, 2013 Posted February 1, 2013 You are, of course, free to disagree with me. My answers to your questions: Now that you all are ex-christians, do you still feel intimidated? If not, why? I never felt intimidated. What is your one (or two or three, but not all) biggest reason(s) that you are no longer "under the influence" of Christianity with no chance of relapse? Something occurred in my life (which I will not discuss) which caused me to question something very important to me (not Christian related) which I had previously accepted as the truth. That led me to begin to question other "truths" including Christianity. Understanding that even basic things I previously accepted to be true were not, in fact, true (the chink in my faith), opened my mind to question Christianity. It was then that I studied the Bible as I had never done before and I saw that what I had believed to be true about Christianity was not true. I was then ready to reject the religion, though it was extremely painful for me to do so. 1
Adrianime Posted February 1, 2013 Author Posted February 1, 2013 You are, of course, free to disagree with me. My answers to your questions: Now that you all are ex-christians, do you still feel intimidated? If not, why? I never felt intimidated. >What is your one (or two or three, but not all) biggest reason(s) that you are no longer "under the influence" of Christianity with no chance of relapse? Something occurred in my life (which I will not discuss) which caused me to question something very important to me (not Christian related) which I had previously accepted as the truth. That led me to begin to question other "truths" including Christianity. Understanding that even basic things I previously accepted to be true were not, in fact, true (the chink in my faith), opened my mind to question Christianity. It was then that I studied the Bible as I had never done before and I saw that what I had believed to be true about Christianity was not true. I was then ready to reject the religion, though it was extremely painful for me to do so. Very cool. So your skepticism awoke due to an event. It's easy to reject religious arguments with a skeptical mind. Thanks for sharing.
Birdwatcher Posted February 1, 2013 Posted February 1, 2013 Adrianime, I don't have any answers to your questions, but I do agree with you that Christianity and other faiths are largely based on circular "reasoning." This morning my husband and I were having a heated discussion on the differing accounts of Jesus' genealogy. In essence he was saying that I just have to believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of god. Why? Because the Bible says that it is. It doesn't matter what contradictions or implausible scenarios you encounter in the Bible, you still just have to believe that the words of the Lord are pure words because the Bible says they are. Sometimes I wonder if I'll survive this crisis of faith with my sanity intact. I love my husband dearly. He truly is a good man. We've been happily married for nearly 30 years. I want to grow old with him (heck, I already have). It just gets so confusing and complicated at times.
Ravenstar Posted February 1, 2013 Posted February 1, 2013 Never felt intimidated by religious people... ever. Freaked out? Sometimes.. a whole lot of them don't come across as mentally or emotionally stable to me. I think because our entire society/culture is steeped in christian doctrine and mythology that it's easy for people to accept it as truth (faith) before investigation.. then the circular reasoning of it's tenets grabs hold and the next thing you know you have someone whose entire worldview is based on it... and their self-image. So they don't really 'choose' in the sense of maiking a reasoned choice about their system - they are sucked in before that takes place. (add in child indoctrination.. and wham) The system however is set up to mess with their self-esteem, and logical abilities as well as to appeal to their fear (eternal hell is pretty darn scary) and sense of superiority (heady stuff when you are made to feel worthless then the solution that you are the special chosen of god is given). The very practice of religion is the use of brainwashing and self-hypnosis (ritual, chanting, music, cognitive stopping phrases - look into that whole linguistic programming this - same same) Add in the peer approval and social benefits it's amazing anyone ever gets out really. I was always a mystic... and a seeker, so I think it was only a matter of time before it all unraveled... I think because for me, truth, was my highest value... and I followed the evidence. That's not to say I don't think there aren't spiritual mysteries in christianity... I think they exist in most religions, and are all basically the same... I just don't buy the WAY christianity holds people hostage to present any truth that may be there. It's probably the most abused religious system EVAH! I don't think anyone has ever come to christianity because they followed the evidence... that's actually kind of funny. 2
Adrianime Posted February 1, 2013 Author Posted February 1, 2013 I don't think anyone has ever come to christianity because they followed the evidence... that's actually kind of funny. Haha, I love that quote. It's so true. You never hear, "Well ya know, I was out one day and I wondered, 'What if there was a god?' So I went at it. I researched, I did archeoligical digs, I cross referenced hundreds of ancient books, I did experiments, tests, and you know what I found? God totally exists. EVERYTHING I LOOKED AT PROVES IT." Nope, it's more like (thousands of years ago), A:"Hmm, ya know I think a god might exist. I am going to write a book that says he does. You wanna help, man?" B:"Sounds like alot of work, are you sure god exists?" A:"I don't know, but trust me, this book will be BIG!" Just an exaggeration, I claim to know nothing about the origin of the bible (well except that it was written by men).
Adrianime Posted February 1, 2013 Author Posted February 1, 2013 Adrianime, I don't have any answers to your questions, but I do agree with you that Christianity and other faiths are largely based on circular "reasoning." This morning my husband and I were having a heated discussion on the differing accounts of Jesus' genealogy. In essence he was saying that I just have to believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of god. Why? Because the Bible says that it is. It doesn't matter what contradictions or implausible scenarios you encounter in the Bible, you still just have to believe that the words of the Lord are pure words because the Bible says they are. Sometimes I wonder if I'll survive this crisis of faith with my sanity intact. I love my husband dearly. He truly is a good man. We've been happily married for nearly 30 years. I want to grow old with him (heck, I already have). It just gets so confusing and complicated at times. Ah, my unequally yoked friend. I seel sad for your situation. I hate that it is so common. The good side of it is that making your situation known, at least provides a good reference for others to avoid that situation in the future. At least you love him . So you have a good foundation to work with. I hope you two come to a satisfactory solution to your religious conflicts. 2
midniterider Posted February 1, 2013 Posted February 1, 2013 The whole foundation of religions like Christianity is circular reasoning. So I've never felt felt intimidated, swayed, convinced, or impressed by a Christian argument. Now that you all are ex-christians, do you still feel intimidated? If not, why? What is your one (or two or three, but not all) biggest reason(s) that you are no longer "under the influence" of Christianity with no chance of relapse? I told 'god' one day I refused to feel guilty anymore about things I wanted to do. I took back the authority over myself. This was the final goodbye to Christianity. There was no response from god either. I don't feel intimidated by religious people because they are fools. They have no power.
Vigile Posted February 1, 2013 Posted February 1, 2013 But faith itself is not about reasoning. Faith is about accepting that for which there is no hard evidence and in Christianity faith is held up as the supreme virtue.. This in itself is circular reasoning. 'Faith is a virtue because we say it's a virtue.' Everyone knows that faith is not a virtue when someone tries to sell you Brooklyn Bridge. Quite the opposite. The world would be almost unanimous in thinking you a fool. Faith as a virtue then is not only circular, but it's special pleading.
stryper Posted February 1, 2013 Posted February 1, 2013 Faith is silly. It demands blind obedience to things you have every right to question. I was never easily impressed by christian reasoning when I was a christian. I actually pointed out the circular reasoning and used it as an example of why it was true. Everything came back to the bible so it was perfect. Of course once, I did that I went. Hey wait..... Now I just don't care enough about most of their arguments to actually fight to much.
OrdinaryClay Posted February 2, 2013 Posted February 2, 2013 I respectfully disagree with your assessent that "The whole foundation of religions like Christianity is circular reasoning." I would say the primary foundation of Christianity is faith and it is faith that leads to, among other things, circular reasoning. But faith itself is not about reasoning. Faith is about accepting that for which there is no hard evidence and in Christianity faith is held up as the supreme virtue. I do not agree. I think all decisions and beliefs take some kind of reasoning to get to. There is no reason to do anything for no reason (obviously). Circular reasoning leads to faith in a scripture-based religion, not the other way around. Please note that I'm not talking about belief in the supernatural in general, that isn't necessarily circular. I'm talking about belief in a Christian-like religion. Hypothetical talk with a Christian: A-The Christian god exists B-Why do you have faith/believe the Christian god exists? A-The bible describes god, and was either influenced by god or written by god. B-How do you know the bible was influenced or written by the Christian god? A-Well, The bible says it is. *Circular Reasoning* The bible is used to prove (the Christian) god, and god is used to validate the bible. The evidence assumes the premise. You are setting up a strawman. I know of many Christians who accept faith, but I know of none that use the circular reasoning you describe. Furthermore, there is an area of study called Natural Theology which provides evidence for God's existence independent of Special Revelation such as the Bible. This book is an excellent resource for those who are interested. The Kindle price is very reasonable. The Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology The renaissance of Christian philosophy over the last half century has served to reinvigorate natural theology, that branch of theology that seeks to provide warrant for belief in God’s existence apart from the resources of authoritative, propositional revelation. (2009-06-15). The Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology (Kindle Locations 189-191). John Wiley and Sons. Kindle Edition. There is strong evidence for the existence of a Creator, and that Creator is the God revealed to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Adrianime Posted February 2, 2013 Author Posted February 2, 2013 Ordinary Clay, The bible, or any collection of books which are used to prove god exists while assuming god already exists fail to have any real meaning. If these books had objective "evidence" as you call it, then the catch phrase for religions wouldn't be, "I have faith". It would be, "Of course god exists". Unfortunately there is no such objective evidence . The natural world is very complex, yes. But I've never seen anything that can only be described by a god. Have you? Suppose you do come up with something that has no explanation. Why is that explanation god? Why are you so arrogant to think you have the ability to comprehend and explain everything? I know it's sad for you buddy, but such is life. I think if you took off your "faith" goggles for a moment, and considered the fact that people aren't always honest (especially those with power), you could imagine the motives for writing the bible, and other religious texts in the past. 1
JadedAtheist Posted February 2, 2013 Posted February 2, 2013 Hypothetical talk with a Christian: A-The Christian god exists B-Why do you have faith/believe the Christian god exists? A-The bible describes god, and was either influenced by god or written by god. B-How do you know the bible was influenced or written by the Christian god? A-Well, The bible says it is. If I was a Christian, the argument would not have gone like that: Me: The Christian God exists. Them: Why do you believe the Christian God exists? Me: I believe there is sound evidence to support the Bible's historicity. Secular scholars have found evidences of the kingdoms of David and Solomon existing, not to mention other kings and nations. Scholars agree that Christ and the 12 apostles existed and there is little disagreement over the authorship of the bulk of Paul's letters. The Bible is consistent with itself, predicted events have occurred and with it being historically accurate it to me is the most sound position to take is that what it says is true. Of course, I was wrong about the historical side of things and the internal consistency but I would have argued those issues away with abrogation, harmonization and the like. I came to Christianity 'because of the evidence' but I wasn't exactly unbiased in my search and I guess at the time I had a hole for it to fill and that's what ultimately nabbed me. As for the biggest reasons I left and continue to stay out of Christianity; well, mostly because what it states to be true doesn't align with reality. It didn't make any sense logically, and all the big promises were filled with the same catches as the rest of religions. There is no promise in the Bible that is unconditional that will just work and that is how they nab you. All the threats and promises are just a dog with a bark worse than its bite.
Chikirin Posted February 2, 2013 Posted February 2, 2013 I do not agree. I think all decisions and beliefs take some kind of reasoning to get to. There is no reason to do anything for no reason (obviously). I make lots of decisions based on emotion and intuition, because I don't have the patience to figure out the best solution to a problem. I made the decision to be a christian based on the emotion of fear. i left christianity slowly, out of frustration with the christian life. as soon as i encountered some actual rational reasons to not believe, I was out the door
Suzy Posted February 2, 2013 Posted February 2, 2013 No, I do not feel intimidated as an Ex-Christian. And I actually never felt intimidated by people - rather by Christian doctrine (such as Hell).I was sucked into Christianity as a 12-year-old, so I just acceped its doctrines by faith. And I was sucked in in the first place because my father was and I kind of accepted him as an authority: if he says it's right then it's right.Like Overcome Faith said in his first post in this thread, once you get into this frame of mind that faith is a bigger virtue than anything, that logic is inferior to faith, then it's not about logic any more. I think many of us could see the errors in the Chrstian teachings, in the Bible, but we just told ourselves: "you have to have faith in God that he will enlighten you on that". If I saw an error in the Bible I forced myself to think it's not really an error in the Bible, the error is in my way of thinking and for now, I have to accept it by faith until God doesn't enlighten me. In other words, in my church, we were thought to trust the Bible over our own logic, because, so we were told, human logic is fallible but the Bible isn't.Yes, there's a lot of circular reasoning involved, but once you are in, you try to suppress any voice of reason when it goes against what you are taught. In my case it led to a lot of cognitive dissonance and that was something that really put me in a bad state mentally by the end and in my opinion this was probably one of the things that led me out of it. When I said: instead of going crazy I will allow myself to think outside of the box for the first time. But like Overcome Faith said there were other factors too those came together. I don't know if any of those factors had been missing I would have been able to overcome my fear of Hell and leave Christianity. By the end I really, really did not feel well in it but I was kept in by the fear of Hell. When you have that fear installed in you from childhood it's not that easy to say: "the Bible doesn't make sense, I'm out". Even if that fear is irrational, it's still very real. I have the experience that most people are more emotional than rational. So something like manipulating your fears can have a bigger effect on many people than logical reasoning. It's not only in religion, by the way, but in all areas of life: the way how politics or the media manipulate people. It seems to me that many people prefer to follow authorities, opinion leaders (be it politicians or the media) than to actually research the evidence themselves and make their own conclusions. (I have seen a lot of instances of how the media misleads, manipulates and brainwashes people.) Maybe there is something in us that makes us prone to follow authorities and be more comfortable following authorities than making up our own mind. Not everyone, of course, but a lot of people. I think the success of organized religion has a lot to do with that. When I was in the Church I had the impression that a lot of people were just happy to be told by authority what to do, what to think, how to live. And I don't think very many of them were very deep thinkers, to be honest. They just liked their weekly dose of "Holy Spirit", singing together in a group, the community, but I don't think many thought too deeply about Christian doctrine. They were just happy to accept everything as they were told. 1
Ravenstar Posted February 2, 2013 Posted February 2, 2013 "a lot of people were just happy to be told by authority what to do, what to think, how to live. And I don't think very many of them were very deep thinkers, to be honest." This ^^^^ and that's not just religion, it's everywhere. I'm against it.... we must teach self-responsibility and critical thinking - to the kids, or this will just go on. It's why a lot of christians can't comprehend that most atheists DON'T follow what someone else told them or even that atheism isn't a religion - they can't fathom that someone can actually think for themselves. 1
TheBeast Posted February 2, 2013 Posted February 2, 2013 The whole foundation of religions like Christianity is circular reasoning. So I've never felt felt intimidated, swayed, convinced, or impressed by a Christian argument. Now that you all are ex-christians, do you still feel intimidated? If not, why? What is your one (or two or three, but not all) biggest reason(s) that you are no longer "under the influence" of Christianity with no chance of relapse? The two big intimidating tools Christianity has at its disposal are fear and greed. If you don't believe in the Christian mythology, then the tools really have no power over you. Now that I no longer believe, the intimidation of Christianity isn't a factor in my life. Once I did stop believing, the fear of hell was probably the last lingering piece of Christianity to go from my mind, but that soon disappeared as well. Nowadays when a believer uses the threat of hell against me, in my mind I just see it as their way of giving me the middle finger. As to the rest, the Christian apologetics usually only work for those who already want to believe. If you don't approach religious apologetics with confirmation bias, they aren't very convicing at all IMO. All it takes is a little bit of objectivity, intelligence, logic, education, and sometimes a bit of research, then the arguments quickly fall apart. I couldn't imagine anything that would make me return to Christianity, or any religion for that manner. Once you see through the bull, there is no going back.
TheBeast Posted February 2, 2013 Posted February 2, 2013 I respectfully disagree with your assessent that "The whole foundation of religions like Christianity is circular reasoning." I would say the primary foundation of Christianity is faith and it is faith that leads to, among other things, circular reasoning. But faith itself is not about reasoning. Faith is about accepting that for which there is no hard evidence and in Christianity faith is held up as the supreme virtue. I do not agree. I think all decisions and beliefs take some kind of reasoning to get to. There is no reason to do anything for no reason (obviously). Circular reasoning leads to faith in a scripture-based religion, not the other way around. Please note that I'm not talking about belief in the supernatural in general, that isn't necessarily circular. I'm talking about belief in a Christian-like religion. Hypothetical talk with a Christian: A-The Christian god exists B-Why do you have faith/believe the Christian god exists? A-The bible describes god, and was either influenced by god or written by god. B-How do you know the bible was influenced or written by the Christian god? A-Well, The bible says it is. *Circular Reasoning* The bible is used to prove (the Christian) god, and god is used to validate the bible. The evidence assumes the premise. I can't speak for other ex-C's or Christians in general, but I didn't think that way. It was all about experience, and apologetics was used to dispel questions that inevitably arise. I 'knew' that biblegod was real because I had an experience with him. After that, I was looking for reasons to convince my mind of what I felt was true, which is how I came to investigate creationism and Christian fundamentalist apologetics. If you want to believe, and haven't educated yourself of opposing viewpoints, its quite easy to convince yourself that everything makes sense if the bible is true. I actually thought that the evidence was overwhelming in favour of biblegod being real and his book being true. I doubt that many believers would think through things in the way that you describe. 1
Vigile Posted February 2, 2013 Posted February 2, 2013 Yes, there's a lot of circular reasoning involved, but once you are in, you try to suppress any voice of reason when it goes against what you are taught.. I agree with you that a lot of people do this, but can anyone explain to me why? I've never understood this. I was indoctrinated from birth and always just thought it was true. When I started seeing challenges to my faith, I at first dismissed them as I started with the presupposition that I had the answers. Nevertheless, I never had any compunction to suppress any challenges and I in fact started seeking them out on my own after I was confronted by a couple of minor ones. I've just never understood why people get stubborn here. Either you are right and what you believe can withstand challenges, or you need to rethink your position. Protecting one's believe because one refuses to be wrong just never made any sense to me and still doesn't. Let me put this another way. If what you believe is true, there are no threats to it. If you feel threatened, then you aren't sure what you believe is true. If you aren't sure, what could possibly be wrong with making sure? Is it really that important to just protect one's own identity even at the expense of believing bullshit in order to do so?
Vigile Posted February 2, 2013 Posted February 2, 2013 "a lot of people were just happy to be told by authority what to do, what to think, how to live. And I don't think very many of them were very deep thinkers, to be honest." This ^^^^ and that's not just religion, it's everywhere. I'm against it.... we must teach self-responsibility and critical thinking - to the kids, or this will just go on. It's why a lot of christians can't comprehend that most atheists DON'T follow what someone else told them or even that atheism isn't a religion - they can't fathom that someone can actually think for themselves. Yeah, I agree with this. Most people just don't care to look too deeply and get squirmy if anyone tries to make them. This is why I believe a truly democratic government can never exist (though I still support the principles of democracy).
TheBeast Posted February 2, 2013 Posted February 2, 2013 Yes, there's a lot of circular reasoning involved, but once you are in, you try to suppress any voice of reason when it goes against what you are taught.. I agree with you that a lot of people do this, but can anyone explain to me why? I've never understood this. I was indoctrinated from birth and always just thought it was true. When I started seeing challenges to my faith, I at first dismissed them as I started with the presupposition that I had the answers. Nevertheless, I never had any compunction to suppress any challenges and I in fact started seeking them out on my own after I was confronted by a couple of minor ones. I've just never understood why people get stubborn here. Either you are right and what you believe can withstand challenges, or you need to rethink your position. Protecting one's believe because one refuses to be wrong just never made any sense to me and still doesn't. Let me put this another way. If what you believe is true, there are no threats to it. If you feel threatened, then you aren't sure what you believe is true. If you aren't sure, what could possibly be wrong with making sure? Is it really that important to just protect one's own identity even at the expense of believing bullshit in order to do so? It's not hard to do. We all do it to some extent, but many religions encourage the practice of ignoring alternative views. "For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened." Romans 1:21 Once you see other views as darkened or evil, its easy to ignore them even without evaluating the content of that perspective. Many Christians (especially of the fundamentalist breed) do it all the time. Tell them you're an atheist or non-believer and they'll be on the defensive from thereon.
Adrianime Posted February 2, 2013 Author Posted February 2, 2013 Ugh, I just spent like 30 minutes writing a response to several people's thoughts, but then during quoting the thing glitched and refreshed the page or something. So, that's all gone. I'm not going to write it again haha. But some points I touched on in brief: -Emotions can be reasons for doing things...but relating emotions to actually beliving things is tougher to justify. It can't just be the emotion that makes a person believe in a god, Can it? -What other "objective evidence" does Christianity have besides the bible? -Obviously I think that since the bible is man made, it's credibility of proving anything supernatural is useless. -I think 80% of the people in my life are casual believers. They don't do anything specifically Christian aside from church once a week and prayer before meals. Which is what I'm used to where I'm from. I think they like to just give up to the authority of a church for a little bit, without really thinking about why they believe. Ugh anyways, I recently woke up so I can't communicate very well right now.
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