"not Their Fault"?

[Checkmate]

I just read these words in another thread and they almost made me swallow my tongue in outrage…

“It is not the fault of the religious that they are deluded.”

?!!!!??!!!!????!!!!???!!!!?? Not their fault?!?!?

Yes, it fucking well IS their fault! They’re making a CHOICE to be deluded nitwits! They can’t help but KNOW that what they believe is bullshit, and yet they persist in clinging to these fictions.

These ADULT human beings, who live in the MODERN WORLD of the 21st CENTURY, have made a deliberate choice to ignore and deny all evidence that debunks their faith. They plug their ears and cover their eyes to all challenges to their faith and pray to a god they know isn’t there. And why? Because they WANT to.

These ADULT human beings, who have more than enough COMMON SENSE to deny and reject Santa Claus as a myth, as well as reject all OTHER religions as false and non-sense, make a concerted effort to IGNORE their own common sense and pretend that THEIR belief merits an exemption to critical examination and being called bullshit.

Not their fault? How the fuck can it NOT be?!?

I’m sorry if this offends some of you, but this is simply more of that “blame-shifting”, “Everyone’s a victim”, “The Devil made me do it” mentality that’s become so prevalent.

No one is responsible for themselves any longer.

Everybody is a victim of circumstance and they just can’t help themselves. [Or they’re compelled somehow.]

It’s just how they were raised.

BULLSHIT. Unless someone is quite literally mentally ill or unbalanced, [or they have a sword to their throat] then these excuses are bull-fucking-shit.

People make choices. Whether informed or ill-informed, it’s still YOUR fucking CHOICE!

And in THIS case people are CHOOSING to believe a comfortable lie [in spite of the tsunami of evidence that proves them wrong], and CHOOSING to reject the uncomfortable truth.

Ergo: It’s their fucking fault and I blame them for CHOOSING to be deluded nitwits.

There. Rant over. Going back to my cave now.

[Chikirin]

Are you talking to me? I think I posted that, or something similar.

[Ravenstar]

Bravo!

[Guest MadameX]

Yeah, but ...

 

People can be emotionally manipulated to do things against their nature. Think of people trained to kill, which is something that goes against our very being. And I do think some of these people are either unbalanced from the start or pushed off balance by the crazy beliefs.

 

But, you are allowed to rant. Sorry.

[Guest Pixie]

You have very valid points and reasons to be angry Checkmate, but you said something that has significant power.

 

This: ''And in THIS case people are CHOOSING to believe a comfortable lie'.' 

 

To some people, to let go of the belief of God, is to let go of everything that they hoped for during a life full of stresses and pain. I have read on these posts that much depression can engulf one when they lose that hope in God. That is why I am taking baby steps towards unbelief. It would be too much to let go all at once.

[Ravenstar]

It's one thing to be spiritual.. and there are many reasonable spiritual people who are also well-grounded.

 

But when it flies in the face of reality... then I'm in full agreement. However society has to take some of the blame.. we seriously need to place more emphasis on public education.. not just in the schools but everywhere... including the media. I search high and low on TV to find anything that is factual (science, history, etc..). I find it but it's not easy... now I just go to youtube, but how many regular people will search stuff out?

 

Those spiritual people who don't completely reject the claims of their more fanatical brethren and challenge them are also culpable. Silence can be taken as tacit approval.

 

Tolerance and compassion should not be used as an excuse for the acceptance of outright falsehoods. No, they should be used as a stepping stone to correct those falsehoods.

[mymistake]

Okay Checkmate, you are passionate about this issue.  But can you build a case for it?  How could you suddenly decide to believe the world if flat?  I certainly could pretend to believe the world is flat when I know it isn't.  But I can't think of a way to actually believe it.  There is a choice to stop worrying about detail and take a plunge into faith.  People can choose to search for defense mechanism.  People can choose to discredit sources.  But how much of what we believe is due to outside forces rather than internal choice?  Does anybody become a believer when they received no childhood indoctrination and they have no life changing stress?  Clearly some people join churches for them to serve as social clubs.  Geography makes a strong case for external forces being the deciding factor.  Religious sects are localized.  Oh they do spread and die out over time.  But at a given time an area is dominated by one or several sects.  We can predict to a reasonable degree what religion somebody will "choose" simply by knowing what community they live in as they grow up.

[MissingLink]

I have been struggling with understanding this same concept!  I am 54 years old, and only acknowledged that I am an atheist about a year ago.  I have a biology degree, a master's in education, and have always been a liberal thinker, so why in the hell did it take me this long to come to my senses? And why am I the only one I know among my family, friends, coworkers, etc.?

 

Therein lies the problem.  When christianity (or whatever religion)  is all you have ever known, and everyone you love and respect is telling you it is true, and you participate in the positive reinforcement and validation of that belief through church activities (prayer, worship, singing, fellowship, etc.),  it is such a collective brainwashing that my concern is not so much "how can they be so deluded?" as, how are we going to break through this powerful delusion??     

 

 

[Deva]

If you are talking about people who insist on believing things like creationism in the face of tons of evidence to the contrary or you are talking about flat out nonsense that contradicts the known facts of science, I am in complete agreement that people choose to remain ignorant.  It is flat-out laziness in actually refusing to consider the other position in favor of "what the church says or what the pastor says." I have hardly any patience for it, but  It may also involve brainwashing for generations. How much choice do these people have? Are they brainwashed or are they not? Doesn't it take a good deal of effort to detach oneself from what their whole family has told them?

[thebatman]

After a certain amount of years a person should be able to figure out the truth.

 

I can understand being sucked into the black hole of Christianity. We've all been there and took the bait hook and sinker. But any mature and responsible person will take the time to actually read the fucking bible which they profess to believe. Therein lies the problem, Christians do not read the bible. They are perfectly content being told what to believe just because it's convenient to their lifestyle. It should be no mystery why most fundamentalist Christians are typically uneducated and poor. They don't even have the self-discipline to understand what they believe let alone being able to test it. 

[Sunny49]

I think it has to do with fear....if you were frightened as a child that you will go to hell if you don´t believe in all the things they say you will have difficulty letting go of this beliefs....

[par4dcourse]

It's all BS, yet some people prefer to swallow the BS rather than going to the trouble of actually thinking. Faith is warm and fuzzy, reality is not.

[Lilith666]

I agree with you. They are choosing to be deluded--but they choose that because they're afraid of what will happen if they don't believe it. Or because it's a habit. Escaping the cult is tough, but it's possible.

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

Well... It's not always their fault. Unless they first think to question it, they won't know to know that its BS.

 

At the same time, them pushing their ignorance at others is their fault. That's a different situation entirely.

[RipVanWinkle]

I don't know about you folks but when I finally did figure out that christianity is nonsense I asked myself many times thereafter, "how could I have believed that bullshit? Talking snakes and donkeys, bashing children against rocks, rising up from being dead? Come on! But the fact is I did believe it. Why? I was a mere kid when I was feed this shit. Parental authority, school authority, and governmental authority were all stacked against nonbelief at that time. I knew no nonbelievers. Not a single adult ever said anything to the contrary to me when I was a kid. Xtianity was in the marrow of my bones. I think it is amazing I figured it out, albeit after many years. Nobody helped me. I did it by myself. I spent many hours reading Xtian history and reseaching what people whom I had respected in history said about it. I read apologetics and those who opposed them. And to tell you the the truth, I'm rather proud of myself. And when I think about how many people don't figure it out, I think I should be proud.  bill

[Thackerie]

I don't know about you folks but when I finally did figure out that christianity is nonsense I asked myself many times thereafter, "how could I have believed that bullshit? Talking snakes and donkeys, bashing children against rocks, rising up from being dead? Come on! But the fact is I did believe it. Why? I was a mere kid when I was feed this shit. Parental authority, school authority, and governmental authority were all stacked against nonbelief at that time. I knew no nonbelievers. Not a single adult ever said anything to the contrary to me when I was a kid. Xtianity was in the marrow of my bones. I think it is amazing I figured it out, albeit after many years. Nobody helped me. I did it by myself. I spent many hours reading Xtian history and reseaching what people whom I had respected in history said about it. I read apologetics and those who opposed them. And to tell you the the truth, I'm rather proud of myself. And when I think about how many people don't figure it out, I think I should be proud.  bill

 

You have every right to be proud of yourself. I'm proud of you, too!

I'm also proud of me (and all of us ex-xians). Most of us accomplished deconversion through hard work, honest research, and a lot of thinking.

 

That's why it always annoys me when christians asked me if I deconverted because somebody in my church mistreated me. Heck no! What a silly thought. If I really believed in all the religious stuff, I wouldn't let mistreatment lead me to hell; I'd just find a better church.

[Ravenstar]

Childhood indoctrination is one of the main problems. Children rely on adults to define reality for them... especially before 7 years of age.

 

Kind of explains the home-schooling phenomena, why the fundies want so much influence in the public schools, why the church wants lot of good christian babies...

 

 

hmmmm......

[par4dcourse]

I don't know about you folks but when I finally did figure out that christianity is nonsense I asked myself many times thereafter, "how could I have believed that bullshit? Talking snakes and donkeys, bashing children against rocks, rising up from being dead? Come on! But the fact is I did believe it. Why?

There's only a handful here that haven't thought that exact thing, only those not "raised" christian. After all, who would honestly fall for that as an adult?

[RipVanWinkle]

par4dcourse: Exactly. But, wonder of wonders, as I have mentioned in other posts, adults do convert, And not only adults, but highly educated adults. Amazing!    bill

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

"Get to them while they're young" is the slogan used by fundamentalists. They want to get to the children, obsessively focus on the children, so they grow up and stay in the fold. Incapable of thinking for themselves, they become and remain sheep, or so they hope. It's psychologically fucked up in the head they are.

[Looking4Answers]

There's only a handful here that haven't thought that exact thing, only

those not "raised" christian. After all, who would honestly fall for

that as an adult?

 

I fell for it as an adult. But no one came to me with talking snakes and donkeys first. I was a lonely young man in my early 20's, going nowhere and wondering what life was all about. That's when someone came to me and told me that god loved me. As the old song goes, I was "looking for love in all the wrong places" and when someone offered me love, I bought it. No, it is not a valid or logical reason, but that's what happened. I was willing to listen. After being involved with what appeared to be a very loving and sincere group of people, I "converted" and accepted their god. After doing that, it did not take long to be indoctrinated. Once you accept the concept of a god, then anything is possible ... even talking snakes!

 

Not everyone makes logical choices. Hell, most our decisions are not logical. If they were, we wouldn't ever eat at McDonalds!

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

 

There's only a handful here that haven't thought that exact thing, only

those not "raised" christian. After all, who would honestly fall for

that as an adult?

 

I fell for it as an adult. But no one came to me with talking snakes and donkeys first. I was a lonely young man in my early 20's, going nowhere and wondering what life was all about. That's when someone came to me and told me that god loved me. As the old song goes, I was "looking for love in all the wrong places" and when someone offered me love, I bought it. No, it is not a valid or logical reason, but that's what happened. I was willing to listen. After being involved with what appeared to be a very loving and sincere group of people, I "converted" and accepted their god. After doing that, it did not take long to be indoctrinated. Once you accept the concept of a god, then anything is possible ... even talking snakes!

 

Not everyone makes logical choices. Hell, most our decisions are not logical. If they were, we wouldn't ever eat at McDonalds!

They came at me with dunkin donuts gift cards and such to get me into the fold with one church. I went one day, got the gift card, then never returned. $10 for a couple of coffee's was a worth it deal to bear a few hours of church service.

 

Though the nicer earlier exposure is indicative of the manipulation at work.

[ExCBooster]

I guess, on a grim note, part of this problem is that we don't teach critical thinking skills - how to analyse and judge arguments, and know the good from the bad - in schools, precisely because questioning authorities telling you stuff would be... inconvenient to a lot of people with money and power. Forget religion, for a moment, 'cause the problem's much deeper than that (WARNING: rant to follow). Would advertisers want people who could ask: do I really need this Kitchen Wizard Auto-Dicer? If they wanted people who would question them, we wouldn't have

. Yes, they're making money. Lots of it. I'm always really bothered by people who believe, right away, anything they read or hear. Or choose what to read or hear, based on whether they like it, or it makes them feel comfortable. (Stretch yourself, dammit, get lots of opinions, always check out the other side. Even the flattest pancake has two sides.) The sheer number of people I meet who can't form an argument or know a BS point when they find one is just scary. There's historical and cultural reasons it's like this, but I don't want to write a sociology tome here. On the upside, given the internet, fact-checking is a mouse click away, and I've found that the younger generations USE it. The stats back this up.

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

I guess, on a grim note, part of this problem is that we don't teach critical thinking skills - how to analyse and judge arguments, and know the good from the bad - in schools, precisely because questioning authorities telling you stuff would be... inconvenient to a lot of people with money and power. Forget religion, for a moment, 'cause the problem's much deeper than that (WARNING: rant to follow). Would advertisers want people who could ask: do I really need this Kitchen Wizard Auto-Dicer? If they wanted people who would question them, we wouldn't have

. Yes, they're making money. Lots of it. I'm always really bothered by people who believe, right away, anything they read or hear. Or choose what to read or hear, based on whether they like it, or it makes them feel comfortable. (Stretch yourself, dammit, get lots of opinions, always check out the other side. Even the flattest pancake has two sides.) The sheer number of people I meet who can't form an argument or know a BS point when they find one is just scary. There's historical and cultural reasons it's like this, but I don't want to write a sociology tome here. On the upside, given the internet, fact-checking is a mouse click away, and I've found that the younger generations USE it. The stats back this up.

Yes, and that's exactly why they don't question it. They don't know to. It's been ingrained into them. And they don't know how to use critical thinking to judge their claims.

[alpha centauri]

It's easier for people to buy in to something they may question as "false hope" than to think they have no hope.

 

It's easier for many to believe a cosmic omnipotent sky daddy is going to take care of them, and that can be a hard thing to let go of for those who have been indoctrinated.

 

It is refreshing to break free, but for many it happens in stages. That's why deism can be such a wonderful start for those breaking away from the fallacies of the biblegod, but still clinging to something that is more logical and less condemnatory.

 

Those who break away from false beliefs no longer have those crutches and the church support system to fall back on, which can be very pervasive depending on where you live. They also have to deal with the stigma that comes with being non-believers, which is almost non-existent in some areas, and is massive in other parts of the country/world.

 

I think there are probably a whole lot of closet atheists/agnostics who regularly attend churches and mosques.