ShackledNoMore Posted February 11, 2013 Posted February 11, 2013 OK, I saw a couple of more threads hitting upon this from one angle or another, and I just have to ask.When I was a xian, my particular church was in the camp that thought it was possible to lose one's salvation.I was told (by them) that the OSAS crowd believed that once you were saved, you could do anything you wanted to and still be saved and go to heaven: you could gun someone down in cold blood, immediately die, and you'd go the heaven because you were saved. You could say "Jesus wears army boots" (though presumably not the HS) and still be saved. You could be an unrepentant psychopath and still be saved because you said some sincere prayer one day when you were 12 years old.If they correctly represented the beliefs of some other xians, then one would expect that there are a subset of xians who would think ex-chrisitains would be "backslidden" but still saved, and in fact, for some 20 years, I thought that such xians did in fact exist.However, since the explosion of information that became available with the Internet and sites like this, I can't think of any xians who hold that position at all. Instead, the OSAS crowd all seem to contend that we ex-christians were never saved in the first place. Oddly enough, it's really hard to get the "you can lose your salvation" crowd to concede that any specific person may have lost his or her salvation. Unless they get cornered really badly and lash out in a tantrum against whoever ripped apart their apologetics, the closest I seem to ever hear is some vague general statement like "some of you are in danger of blaspheming the hs by turning your backs and hardening your hearts so much that you can no longer hear its voice."I think that at my church, they constructed a straw man against the OSAS crowd which may have been easier for them to ridicule and help with their own particular fear inducing agenda for their version of the cult.Thoughts? Xians believe all sorts of ridiculous things, I haven't missed anything, have I? Has anyone seen this straw man presented at some churches?
par4dcourse Posted February 11, 2013 Posted February 11, 2013 The CoG was big on "sanctification", and "backsliding" would get you sent to hell quicker than anything. They loved to feel superior to sinners.
HymenaeusAlexander Posted February 11, 2013 Posted February 11, 2013 Like every other doctrine in Christianity, everyone’s mileage is going to vary on this. This is kind of like how Protestant churches like to accuse Catholics of worshipping Mary and the saints. On a practical level and for many individual Catholics, this is probably true, but official doctrine creates a semantic distinction between adoration and veneration. Likewise, there certainly are some Evangelicals for whom your old church did not present a straw man. There is indeed a segment of folks engaged in “easy believism” wherein people pray a prayer and ask Jesus into their hearts and if they really mean it they’re saved, henceforth and forevermore. However, you’d be hard pressed to find where official church doctrine pushes this to the extreme and I would be willing to bet that the view itself largely resides with the laity in these churches and not the clergy or those who’ve actually studied the doctrine.In my experience most of the folks who look to this doctrine in that way are either older adults who’ve watched their children slowly drift away from church and they want some assurance that their kids are still going to make it, or they’re people that haven’t really thought about it much since they were kids and just want to be able to have something to tell the Jehovah’s Witnesses when they come knocking on the door. For the soul-winnin’ fundies it’s a way to add more numbers by berating people into praying a prayer so they can close the deal and go gleefully “give all praise and glory to Jesus” next week at church when they boast that they personally led X number of people to the Lord during Thursday night visitation or while street-preachin’ and they can be assured that they really did rescue those folks from the pit of hell, Hallelujah!However, for many in the easy believism crowd, there is a difference between individual sins like gunning someone down in cold blood or even living in a perpetual state of unrepentance characterized by riotous living, drunkenness and other prodigal son type stuff versus the kind of outright, open and declared apostasy like what we’ve done. It’s usually when that happens that they play the “you didn’t really mean it when you prayed the prayed the prayer” card.There’s also a distinction to be made between the doctrine of the perseverance (or preservation) of the saints and the eternal security doctrine of easy believism. Perseverance of the saints is a Calvinist/Augustinian doctrine and, quite frankly, it is a bit more consistent than that weak-ass OSAS crap. Externally, it looks damn near identical to the idea that someone can lose their salvation, with the caveat that internally they were never regenerate (born again) to begin with. People like us may, in fact, be elect and end up being regenerated at some point later before we die, but as those who openly reject Christ we are showing we were not really regenerate before. We externally took part in the covenant community and enjoyed the benefits thereof, but internally we were spiritually dead. But hey, the wind blows where it wishes; so maybe that wind will blow our way someday and we can be really most sincerely saved. Otherwise we’re toast.
thebatman Posted February 11, 2013 Posted February 11, 2013 There are scriptures which support both arguments which is where the problem lies. If I were still a Christian I would believe in OSAS because the scriptural evidence is a little stronger and more in tune with Jesus' teachings.
mymistake Posted February 11, 2013 Posted February 11, 2013 There are scriptures which support both arguments which is where the problem lies. If I were still a Christian I would believe in OSAS because the scriptural evidence is a little stronger and more in tune with Jesus' teachings. Yeah it's sad the way Christians think. If two verses say 2 + 2 = 5 but three verses say 2 + 2 = 3 then Christians argue that there is scriptural evidence for the truth . . . *face palm* I can't believe I use to be just like that. Yeah 2 + 2 = 3 because more Bible verses say so!
florduh Posted February 11, 2013 Posted February 11, 2013 There are scriptures which support both arguments which is where the problem lies. If I were still a Christian I would believe in OSAS because the scriptural evidence is a little stronger and more in tune with Jesus' teachings. Agree. In addition to the supporting verses, my church had a logical reason (within the closed, illogical system). It was Christ's work, not ours, that brought us salvation. Given that, we are not in a position to undo his work. "Bad" Christians still went to Heaven, but their rewards were lesser. In other words, fellow Exers, we are still going to sit at the Lord's table in Heaven, but now we'll be doing the dishes.
par4dcourse Posted February 11, 2013 Posted February 11, 2013 "If you wanna get to heaven, you got to raise a little hell."--The Ozark Mountain Daredevils
greylight Posted February 12, 2013 Posted February 12, 2013 I am hoping this is the belief my mom can draw comfort from when she finds out I am no longer a xian.
HymenaeusAlexander Posted February 12, 2013 Posted February 12, 2013 I am hoping this is the belief my mom can draw comfort from when she finds out I am no longer a xian. This is exactly what my sister did when my wife and I told her about our apostasy. It was quite interesting watching her work through the cognitive dissonance right before our eyes. I had read that such things happened, but I didn't ever expect to witness it in real time over the course of a single conversation. By the time she left our house she was hunky-dory about the whole thing. It was surreal. I wish everybody else would've done this. It would've made things a lot easier.
ShackledNoMore Posted February 12, 2013 Author Posted February 12, 2013 That's an excellent analysis, H. A. As for: However, for many in the easy believism crowd, there is a difference between individual sins like gunning someone down in cold blood or even living in a perpetual state of unrepentance characterized by riotous living, drunkenness and other prodigal son type stuff versus the kind of outright, open and declared apostasy like what we’ve done. It’s usually when that happens that they play the “you didn’t really mean it when you prayed the prayed the prayer” card. ...it's ironic. It's perfectly reasonable for one who truly believes to declare apostasy after concluding the religion was all a sham. What's crazy are those pious xians who revel in debauchery.
ShackledNoMore Posted February 12, 2013 Author Posted February 12, 2013 There are scriptures which support both arguments which is where the problem lies. If I were still a Christian I would believe in OSAS because the scriptural evidence is a little stronger and more in tune with Jesus' teachings. Agree. In addition to the supporting verses, my church had a logical reason (within the closed, illogical system). It was Christ's work, not ours, that brought us salvation. Given that, we are not in a position to undo his work. "Bad" Christians still went to Heaven, but their rewards were lesser. In other words, fellow Exers, we are still going to sit at the Lord's table in Heaven, but now we'll be doing the dishes. I'm not so sure. There seems to be a whole lot of scripture that those in either camp can cherry pick to support their positions. Both sides confidently rationalize who their view is consistent with the "true" xian belief system.
HymenaeusAlexander Posted February 12, 2013 Posted February 12, 2013 There are scriptures which support both arguments which is where the problem lies. If I were still a Christian I would believe in OSAS because the scriptural evidence is a little stronger and more in tune with Jesus' teachings. Yeah it's sad the way Christians think. If two verses say 2 + 2 = 5 but three verses say 2 + 2 = 3 then Christians argue that there is scriptural evidence for the truth . . . *face palm* I can't believe I use to be just like that. Yeah 2 + 2 = 3 because more Bible verses say so! Funny story. After we left our church the pastor preached a sermon on apostasy from Hebrews 6. He read the passage and then proceeded to explain why it can't really mean what it obviously looks like it means and then had the congregation turn in their bibles to other passages from different books of the bible that contradict it. This was a perfectly acceptable way to deal with the problem in their minds because as he put it, "you have to look to the clearer passages to explain the more vague ones" as if Hebrews 6 wasn't already pretty damn clear. Guys like John Wesley and Jacob Arminius sure as hell thought it was, anyway.
kolaida Posted February 24, 2013 Posted February 24, 2013 There are scriptures which support both arguments which is where the problem lies. If I were still a Christian I would believe in OSAS because the scriptural evidence is a little stronger and more in tune with Jesus' teachings. Agree. In addition to the supporting verses, my church had a logical reason (within the closed, illogical system). It was Christ's work, not ours, that brought us salvation. Given that, we are not in a position to undo his work. "Bad" Christians still went to Heaven, but their rewards were lesser. In other words, fellow Exers, we are still going to sit at the Lord's table in Heaven, but now we'll be doing the dishes. Ahaha, that's hilarious! Unfortunately, my family's beliefs were always the ones along the lines of you can't become "unsaved." It meant you didn't TRULY mean it. I remember finding an aunt's old letter (who was no longer xtian) and asking my Mom how could someone who used to be so into Christianity no longer be? "Because she never really meant it in her heart." I think was the answer. Apparently, her brain was fooling her but her heart was never in the right place? I know we did have a couple relatives the did believe in the "once saved, always saved" that they applied to her as well. It was pretty confusing. I wonder if my mom will still think along these lines once she finds out about me?
duderonomy Posted February 25, 2013 Posted February 25, 2013 There are scriptures which support both arguments which is where the problem lies. If I were still a Christian I would believe in OSAS because the scriptural evidence is a little stronger and more in tune with Jesus' teachings. Yeah it's sad the way Christians think. If two verses say 2 + 2 = 5 but three verses say 2 + 2 = 3 then Christians argue that there is scriptural evidence for the truth . . . *face palm* I can't believe I use to be just like that. Yeah 2 + 2 = 3 because more Bible verses say so! Funny story. After we left our church the pastor preached a sermon on apostasy from Hebrews 6. He read the passage and then proceeded to explain why it can't really mean what it obviously looks like it means and then had the congregation turn in their bibles to other passages from different books of the bible that contradict it. This was a perfectly acceptable way to deal with the problem in their minds because as he put it, "you have to look to the clearer passages to explain the more vague ones" as if Hebrews 6 wasn't already pretty damn clear. Guys like John Wesley and Jacob Arminius sure as hell thought it was, anyway. Let me guess...did it go something along the lines of "if you fall away you can't be renewed again to repentance because you have already repented and been saved, and you can't re-crucify Christ again to get saved again because his one time death was enough"? 'Cause if so, I've heard that one too. As a fundie, though Hebrews six scared the crap out of me, and no one in or out of the church even knows who wrote it. Stupid me. I think the N.T. does seem to say you can both lose it and you can't lose it. I also know which side's verses I'm going to start quoting immediatley if I wake up dead tomorrow and there stands Jesus with Peter and the boys all giving me the stink eye.
ContraBardus Posted February 26, 2013 Posted February 26, 2013 The way I've always heard it is that 'no one who is really saved would do things like that. Anyone who would is obviously faking and/or never really truly accepted Jesus as their saivor.' Seems to be the stock answer to that sort of questioning. It's just obvious to them that someone who has 'found God's love' would never turn away from him. So people who 'stop believing' never really believed in the first place, and people who would act in such evil never really accepted Jesus as their saivor. Of course, even though they 'never accepted him' they still know that he's really the Son of God and that God is real. That's just so obvious that even the dumbest person in the world knows it's true. Even Muslims and people who are in all those crazy Asian religions know it's true. It's just that a lot of people don't admit it for some reason... I mean, the evidence clearly shows that it's true after all. The Bible says so, and it's the word of God! It says that it is and everything, so you don't need to bother checking to see if that's really true or not. After all, you believe and trust in God obviously, because you -really are saved- right? Anyway, he's your Shepherd, so you should love him. Don't worry that he takes your wool off, and tells you that you should feel bad about being naked like that. It's your fault anyway. He keeps the wolves away. Don't worry about that meat he has for lunch, the members of the herd who disappeared were obviously taken by the wolves because they didn't listen to his word and accept him. Just eat your grass, listen to his word and he'll take care of you forever.
ShackledNoMore Posted February 27, 2013 Author Posted February 27, 2013 Let me guess...did it go something along the lines of "if you fall away you can't be renewed again to repentance because you have already repented and been saved, and you can't re-crucify Christ again to get saved again because his one time death was enough"? 'Cause if so, I've heard that one too. That's virtually word for word the argument I always heard.
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