The Most Difficult Transition For Me...

[midniterider]

 

 

Materialism is a sad philosophy, in my opinion.  But it's just that, a philosophy.  No one can prove that a spirit world does not exist.

 

Nobody can prove that a spirit world does exist, and that's the relevant point.

 

Relevance varies from person to person. haha.

[florduh]

 

 

Relevance varies from person to person. haha.

 

 

 What varies is what one considers to be evidence or proof.

[Adrianime]

A spirit world or after life is alot easier to believe than a god.  But to me it is still un-believable, and falls under the category of "wouldn't it be nice if this were true" for those who believe it.

[Denyoz]

 

 

Materialism is a sad philosophy, in my opinion.  But it's just that, a philosophy.  No one can prove that a spirit world does not exist.

 

Nobody can prove that a spirit world does exist, and that's the relevant point. Just because one can't prove a negative doesn't mean that Jesus, Thor, Xenu and the Pink Unicorn actually do exist. The responsibility lies in proving a claim, not disproving something that's invisible and undetectable.

 

There would be some comfort in thinking I would not die just because my body failed, but I can't just decide to believe that when evidence (or lack of evidence) doesn't lead me in that direction. Many people don't need evidence to believe something, but I can't simply believe my wishful thinking makes it true.

 

Heh! Heh!  I just don't want my friend LifeCycle to have to go through what I went through, although my efforts are probably in vain.  Like you said, most people need some kind of evidence to believe something.  My subjective experience would not be evidence for anyone.

 

Maybe LifeCycle has what it takes in terms of experience to believe that he has an immortal soul, or maybe he can learn to be happy knowing he is a mere mortal.  I don't know.

[RipVanWinkle]

How can you say that most people need some evidence to believe something after all we have all been through with Xtians? (i'm just giving you a hard time for the fun of it.  bill

[kolaida]

I was kind of relieved. I stressed WAY too much about the next life and got a little frustrated when I doubted others and even myself (do they truly mean it or are they just hoping for points in the next life? What about ME?! Do I mean it?!)   I like the idea of just nothingness.  Just becoming one with the Earth in whatever way that may be, either by ashes or rotting into it.  The only think I don't like is the rotting in a coffin bit.  Gonna try to sign up for a natural cemetery or get a biodegradable coffin.  Assuming I have enough time in this life to take care of that. If not, it won't really matter a bit will it? lol! 

[ExCBooster]

Frankly, I'm with the "don't think it's a good idea to live forever" camp. I mean, when that gets tossed around, life eternal and all, I worry about if anyone's really thought about how very LONG literal eternity is. Take this graphical representation of the Mandelbrot Set (

). And that's not even remotely close. It's not even useful to talk about "close" to infinity. Infinity being what it is, there is no such thing.

But expressed in time. Anything will happen. Gaah, that's horrifying. I mean, we have issues wrapping our heads around geologic time. And that's peanuts to eternity.

[VacuumFlux]

I was kind of relieved. I stressed WAY too much about the next life and got a little frustrated when I doubted others and even myself (do they truly mean it or are they just hoping for points in the next life? What about ME?! Do I mean it?!)   I like the idea of just nothingness.  Just becoming one with the Earth in whatever way that may be, either by ashes or rotting into it.  The only think I don't like is the rotting in a coffin bit.  Gonna try to sign up for a natural cemetery or get a biodegradable coffin.  Assuming I have enough time in this life to take care of that. If not, it won't really matter a bit will it? lol! 

 

I find the coffin thing creepy too. I'm not going to be around to use the body, so why go to such lengths to preserve it? I want what's left of me to be recycled into something useful, to go back into the cycle of life instead of being frozen in death.

[kolaida]

 

I was kind of relieved. I stressed WAY too much about the next life and got a little frustrated when I doubted others and even myself (do they truly mean it or are they just hoping for points in the next life? What about ME?! Do I mean it?!)   I like the idea of just nothingness.  Just becoming one with the Earth in whatever way that may be, either by ashes or rotting into it.  The only think I don't like is the rotting in a coffin bit.  Gonna try to sign up for a natural cemetery or get a biodegradable coffin.  Assuming I have enough time in this life to take care of that. If not, it won't really matter a bit will it? lol! 

 

I find the coffin thing creepy too. I'm not going to be around to use the body, so why go to such lengths to preserve it? I want what's left of me to be recycled into something useful, to go back into the cycle of life instead of being frozen in death.

 

Yeah, I find it really creepy.  I'd much rather be put back into the cycle of life. Makes more sense.  I've signed up as an organ donor, but with my remains I just don't want them rotting in a coffin totally useless in that little space. Much rather just become part of the earth like so many humans before.  

[wndwalkr99]

Rejecting Christianity doesn't mean you have to reject spirituality.  Materialism is a sad philosophy, in my opinion.  But it's just that, a philosophy.  No one can prove that a spirit world does not exist.  I don't find it difficult to believe that I am a spirit being having a human experience.  I know my body will die, no doubt about that, but I believe my consciousness will continue living after physical death.  I believe I have an astral body.

Are you serious with this shit? No really. Just because something is "sad" doesn't make it false, for one. No one can prove that the spirit world does not exist. No one can prove that my cousin does not own an invisible taco truck that he garages on the far side of the moon in an invisible garage. Just because something can't be disproven doesn't mean it's real. Where are your critical thinking skills, man??

[Jose]

Let Deny have his astral body if he wants. Ex-christian doesn't necessarily mean materialistic extinctivist. If it helps him through the day and harms no one, what's the big deal?

 

I wish I could make stuff up and then believe it.

 

 

 

I was kind of relieved. I stressed WAY too much about the next life and got a little frustrated when I doubted others and even myself (do they truly mean it or are they just hoping for points in the next life? What about ME?! Do I mean it?!)   I like the idea of just nothingness.  Just becoming one with the Earth in whatever way that may be, either by ashes or rotting into it.  The only think I don't like is the rotting in a coffin bit.  Gonna try to sign up for a natural cemetery or get a biodegradable coffin.  Assuming I have enough time in this life to take care of that. If not, it won't really matter a bit will it? lol! 

 

I find the coffin thing creepy too. I'm not going to be around to use the body, so why go to such lengths to preserve it? I want what's left of me to be recycled into something useful, to go back into the cycle of life instead of being frozen in death.

 

Yeah, I find it really creepy.  I'd much rather be put back into the cycle of life. Makes more sense.  I've signed up as an organ donor, but with my remains I just don't want them rotting in a coffin totally useless in that little space. Much rather just become part of the earth like so many humans before.  

 

 

You're thinking about this all wrong... what if there IS bodily resurrection, but it's not Jesus, it's the reanimation of necrotic, embalmed tissues via a ZOMBIFICATION PLAGUE!!! Wouldn't you want to rip your way free of the confines of your coffin to rise once more to feast upon the flesh of the living?

 

Wouldn't you want to shuffle your way murderously into eternity?

 

 

 

[Margee]

 

Rejecting Christianity doesn't mean you have to reject spirituality.  Materialism is a sad philosophy, in my opinion.  But it's just that, a philosophy.  No one can prove that a spirit world does not exist.  I don't find it difficult to believe that I am a spirit being having a human experience.  I know my body will die, no doubt about that, but I believe my consciousness will continue living after physical death.  I believe I have an astral body.

 Where are your critical thinking skills, man??

Unfair attack. Deny is a very intelligent person.

[florduh]

 

 

Rejecting Christianity doesn't mean you have to reject spirituality.  Materialism is a sad philosophy, in my opinion.  But it's just that, a philosophy.  No one can prove that a spirit world does not exist.  I don't find it difficult to believe that I am a spirit being having a human experience.  I know my body will die, no doubt about that, but I believe my consciousness will continue living after physical death.  I believe I have an astral body.

 Where are your critical thinking skills, man??

Unfair attack. Deny is a very intelligent person.

 

To be fair, one may be quite intelligent but lack skills in critical thinking. Fortunately, it can be learned. However, even having all the tools for clear thinking and logic, emotional need can trump any situation. That's why so many people end up in bad relationships even though all along they "knew better." 

[Margee]

 

 

 

Rejecting Christianity doesn't mean you have to reject spirituality.  Materialism is a sad philosophy, in my opinion.  But it's just that, a philosophy.  No one can prove that a spirit world does not exist.  I don't find it difficult to believe that I am a spirit being having a human experience.  I know my body will die, no doubt about that, but I believe my consciousness will continue living after physical death.  I believe I have an astral body.

 Where are your critical thinking skills, man??

Unfair attack. Deny is a very intelligent person.

 

To be fair, one may be quite intelligent but lack skills in critical thinking. Fortunately, it can be learned. However, even having all the tools for clear thinking and logic, emotional need can trump any situation. That's why so many people end up in bad relationships even though all along they "knew better." 

 

I agree with what you said florduh, but I am of the mind set right now that whatever it takes to survive on earth, including a belief in some kind of afterlife..... then let them have it. Especially when it comes to mental health.

 

Some can completely come to the conclution that this is all there is and some want to believe that life goes on for a purpose. As long as someone isn't hurting anyone with that 'concept'......I say let them have it. But then again, I am also one of the ones that is still hoping for 'something'. That dosen't make me stupid. It helps me to have hope of some kind....... Maybe a little reincarnation where I can come back and not get sucked in to christianity in my next life.......

[new2me]

Sure, I hope that there is something more than this, but I don't see anything now that convinces me that there is.  I realize that there may be things that humans cannot possibly understand during our lifetime - parallel universes, multiverses, other dimensions, etc. - but since my consciousness seems to be linked to my physical body, when my physical body ceases to function then what "I" am will no longer exist.

 

A few weeks ago I was wondering whether a life beyond this life could be full of pain and suffering.  There's no reason to think that an eternal life would necessarily be blissful.  Now that was downright terrifying.  But now that I write that down it sounds like "hell".  And I don't believe in that.

[LifeCycle]

I dunno, there seems to be an awful lot of convincing arguments by those who have experienced NDE's or some kind of outside the body experience.  Why they only converse with and see dead relatives?  The ones that have been on their death bed for months just mumbling nonsense to the point nobody listens... Then their last two minutes alive, they make complete sense and are normal and say they're "going home to be with such and such..."  All the sudden the brain and their speech is perfectly functional right before it's about to die.  Mmmkay.

[florduh]

 

Then their last two minutes alive, they make complete sense and are normal and say they're "going home to be with such and such..."  All the sudden the brain and their speech is perfectly functional right before it's about to die.

 

That hasn't been my experience, though I have admittedly seen very few people die in that state. Have you witnessed this phenomenon? If so, I'd like to investigate further. I would love to discover that there is indeed a continuation of our current consciousness after death, but so far.......

[LifeCycle]

 

 

Then their last two minutes alive, they make complete sense and are normal and say they're "going home to be with such and such..."  All the sudden the brain and their speech is perfectly functional right before it's about to die.

 

That hasn't been my experience, though I have admittedly seen very few people die in that state. Have you witnessed this phenomenon? If so, I'd like to investigate further. I would love to discover that there is indeed a continuation of our current consciousness after death, but so far.......

There is actually a term for that behavior.  I'll see if I can find it.  It'll be easier to search for that way.

[florduh]

 

 

There is actually a term for that behavior.  I'll see if I can find it.  It'll be easier to search for that way.

 

 

 

Thanks. My limited experience is all pretty much like that of my mother on her death bed. She "saw" and talked to some deceased friends (who probably had existed) but she also visited with my living brother on his sheep ranch (which he has never had). She sounded lucid, but the content of her speech told a different story. RIP, Mom.

[LifeCycle]

 

 

There is actually a term for that behavior.  I'll see if I can find it.  It'll be easier to search for that way.

 

 

 

Thanks. My limited experience is all pretty much like that of my mother on her death bed. She "saw" and talked to some deceased friends (who probably had existed) but she also visited with my living brother on his sheep ranch (which he has never had). She sounded lucid, but the content of her speech told a different story. RIP, Mom.

Wow... Sorry to hear that.

[VacuumFlux]

There's something about a fear of change in wanting the afterlife to exist. If it does exist, it's going to be very, very different from what I experience inside a body. And our experiences shape us. A disembodied conscious may be a continuation of some part of me, but without the body things are going to be so different that whatever it is of "me" left will be drastically changed by the experience.

 

I was reading through a Buddhist analytical meditation once on death and reincarnation. I didn't find the reasoning behind it convincing, but there was something else that struck me. It talked about how your personality and all sorts of things is part of this life, in this body. You leave a lot of that behind when whatever it is that reincarnates moves on to the next life. I had a strong, overwhelming feeling of "But everything that dies with this body is how I define me. That next life ISN'T ME! Why should spend all my time working for future merit for someone who isn't me?" I guess maybe part of the idea of enlightenment is putting your sense of identity into that undying thing and letting go of the temporary life that is now? Maybe? But I certainly don't see things that way right now, and so I don't find that concept of reincarnation comforting. I don't see any difference between a piece of my consciousness that isn't me-as-I-define-myself-now going on to another life, and my physical matter decomposing and the physical pieces of me going on to be part of another life. At least in the physical example I am quite confident that my physical matter won't disappear when I die and can be recycled; I'm not at all convinced that my consciousness will have anything to recycle without the body as substrate.

 

I have memories of when I was a kid, and memories of disturbing mental states from when my biochemistry was messed up. I know that they happened, that I went through those experiences. Yet... they still don't feel like they belong to me. That's not what the I-that-exists-now would do or feel in that situation. In a way, the me that existed as a little kid is dead, and the me of now is a different entity. And later in my life, now-me will be dead and replaced by future-me. That's terrifying. But it's also comforting, to know that despite all those changes that there's still a thread of continuity running through things, that assures me that future-me will at least be a better person if now-me learns and grows from my current experiences. And it's nice to know that the things I don't like about myself right now are changable. And it's less scary to think about current-me dying when I know that "I" have "died" in the past and will keep dying, and being reborn, in a gradual process of change. I just hope to live a full and satisfying enough life that when the final death comes I'll be able to accept it calmly. Dying in my sleep would be nice. I'm really much more afraid of the pain of the process of dying than I am of being dead.

[Denyoz]

 

Rejecting Christianity doesn't mean you have to reject spirituality.  Materialism is a sad philosophy, in my opinion.  But it's just that, a philosophy.  No one can prove that a spirit world does not exist.  I don't find it difficult to believe that I am a spirit being having a human experience.  I know my body will die, no doubt about that, but I believe my consciousness will continue living after physical death.  I believe I have an astral body.

Are you serious with this shit? No really. Just because something is "sad" doesn't make it false, for one. No one can prove that the spirit world does not exist. No one can prove that my cousin does not own an invisible taco truck that he garages on the far side of the moon in an invisible garage. Just because something can't be disproven doesn't mean it's real. Where are your critical thinking skills, man??

 

The theory of materialism holds that the only thing that exists is matter or energy; that all things are composed of material and all phenomena (including consciousness) are the result of material interactions.

 

Materialism is a philosophy, and as far as I know, is just one of many philosophies.

 

I think that I am exercising my critical thinking when I think that materialism is not the only philosophy that exists, and that a reality outside of matter/energy probably exists.

 

Spirituality, after all, is part of the human experience.  None of us would be here having this discussion if it weren't for spirituality.  Unfortunately, almost all of us were extremely deceived by religion, and many of us equal religion with spirituality.

 

I'm convinced that spirituality exists.  Even on this board, there is a serious forum dedicated to it.  So it must be important.  There is no forum dedicated to Xenu, the Pink Unicorn or to your cousin's invisible taco truck inside an invisible garage behind the moon.

 

The existence of an immortal soul transcending the human body is among the most fundamental concepts of spirituality.  It's a very popular concept that is still being studied today.  I am not the one who made it up.

 

Since the OP addresses this question and expressed sadness in the face of mortality, all I do is mention that he might want to consider studying the concept of immortality and the human spirit.  I have been studying this, and it brings me much happiness.  There is a vast amount of literature on this subject and ideas a lot more interesting than what Christianity had to offer.

[Adrianime]

I can understand the desire for spirituality, eternal life, the concept of a soul, psychic energy, ki, etc..  They are all fantastic concepts.  If you can accept them as true and believe in them, then you have an ability that I do not.  At least spirituality doesn't have an agenda like religion, so it likely won't affect (largely) society or relationships.  These concepts still appeal to the anxiety, fear, desire, imagination, hope, and selfishness (for lack of a better word) that lead people to religion.  They just don't do so in a controlling or negative way as many religions do.  Which is good, I suppose.

[par4dcourse]

I thought this fitting: " The idea of death, the fear of it, haunts the human animal like nothing else; it is a mainspring of human activity - designed largely to avoid the fatality of death, to overcome it by denying in some way that it is the final destiny of man.."--Ernest Becker

 

There's also a good quote by Freud that says in effect humans can't even imagine death because to do so requires an observer.

 

Gonna happen, so enjoy the ride!

[florduh]

 

It's a very popular concept that is still being studied today.

 

So if it's popular, it must be true? How popular would a thing have to be in order to be true? As popular as Jesus? Scientology? 

 

The popularity of a belief (blacks are an inferior race, witchcraft causes illness and crop failures) is totally irrelevant. Prevalent misconceptions don't become correct or true simply by virtue of being prevalent. This understanding and application is part of using critical thinking.