The Most Difficult Transition For Me...

[LifeCycle]

Florduh mentioned it already but the truth of the matter with all of this is our perception of the "evidence."  None of us are experts as no human is on the subject (at least to the point that the rest of us ascribe them 100% credibility).  This really goes full-circle back to my initial point.  It's tough for those who's reality goes from an eternal existence full of bliss to one where their life is truly but just a vapor (hey the bible was right about something!).  Unfortunately, humanity's desire to avoid our eventual demise spawns all kinds of problems... Religion being one of them.  This drive is so great, it can overshadow the greatness that life itself can be...  

 

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky

-John Lennon

 

Maybe our achilles heel is the fact that we're aware of our own unavoidable death.  Kudo's to those who can look past it without trying to fix it.  After decades of religion...  I'm just not yet at that place in my life.

[Ellwood]

Had exactly the same epiphany.   For me I struggled with never knowing the answers to the great questions of the universe that I planned to have reveled to me when I got there.   I guess I thought there would be seminars.   Celestial Creation 101.   Snacks provided.   Origins of Life 105.   Computer Interactive.   Life on Other Planets, taught by Darwin.   Sign up early.   Very popular.   How To Use the Heaven Database to Find Your Relatives - taught by Corrie Ten Boom.

 

Now I will never know the answers to these questions.    

 

Oh, and finally in a matter of days Billy Graham went from being my hero to, well, not my hero at all.  

 

I know he is about to pass.   Just another one of those odd 180 degree changes a deconversion brings.

[MultifariousBirdLady]

I tell you one thing that has helped. It's going to sound stupid, but seriously, I still can't believe how much this one memory has ameliorated the fear of death for me...

 

 

General Anaesthetic.

 

 

 

You slowly go to sleep, no dreams, no consciousness, no... anything at all.

 

Then, some time later, suddenly you're back with no memory of the time you were out. That period of time you were out? Yeah, that's basically being dead. When you look back on being anaesthesized, you'll remember it as nothing... and nothing is really not that scary because you don't ever actually experience it.

 

Interesting.  For me, whippets (nitrous oxide) helped allay that fear somewhat.  I had heard that they were called "brainkillers" and that part of what happened was that the brain was deprived of oxygen.  (I don't know if that's actually true or not.  I heard this a long time ago and never checked into it.)  I could imagine that feeling getting more intense until the point of losing consciousness, and then that would be it. 

[Denyoz]

 

 

It's a very popular concept that is still being studied today.

 

So if it's popular, it must be true? How popular would a thing have to be in order to be true? As popular as Jesus? Scientology? 

 

The popularity of a belief (blacks are an inferior race, witchcraft causes illness and crop failures) is totally irrelevant. Prevalent misconceptions don't become correct or true simply by virtue of being prevalent. This understanding and application is part of using critical thinking.

 

No, I don't believe that the concept of an immortal soul it true because it is popular.  It's probably just because I am gullible and not as capable as you guys of critical thinking.

[par4dcourse]

 

No, I don't believe that the concept of an immortal soul it true because it is popular.  It's probably just because I am gullible and not as capable as you guys of critical thinking.

It's OK. Death is like first time sex. Nobody knows for sure until it actually happens.

[Lerk]

 

 

Thanks. My limited experience is all pretty much like that of my mother on her death bed. She "saw" and talked to some deceased friends (who probably had existed) but she also visited with my living brother on his sheep ranch (which he has never had). She sounded lucid, but the content of her speech told a different story. RIP, Mom.

 

I spent last Saturday night in the hospital with my father-in-law. In the middle of the night he awoke with a start, saying "help me!" and he was trying to get up. I asked why he wanted to get up, and he said "that woman at the end of the bed is motioning to me to go with her!" It apparently was not someone he knew.

 

His son relieved me at 9:00 a.m., and he spent the next 4 hours "awake" and talking, sometimes making sense, sometimes not. He died about 1:00 p.m. He was clearly planning a trip, and kept asking his son to make sure his bags were packed. But it wasn't heaven he was going to, it was Montana. (Some people probably think that's the same place :-)

 

In any case, there was the somewhat typical experience there. He dreamed he saw someone who was "beckoning" him to go with them. Interesting that it wasn't his mother, or Jesus, or anybody he knew. And that's the thing: People pick out the parts of those dreams or hallucinations that make the most sense to them, or go along with their beliefs or hopes about an afterlife, and ignore the dreams that don't make sense. If he had identified his mother, rather than "that woman", we might have given that particular dream more weight than the statement about Montana.

[midniterider]

 

 

Relevance varies from person to person. haha.

 

 

 What varies is what one considers to be evidence or proof.

 

Exactly.

[kolaida]

I saw a tv show once about NDEs.  One of the medical doctors said that our "reward" feel good area is right behind our eyes and that's why we "see" that "light at the end of the tunnel."  However, I have been unable to attain information to back this saying up, but I haven't actively searched either (well not for long enough to qualify it either way).  I have a friend who had an out of body experience during a traumatic event. She said it lasted three hours and at some point, she just felt herself floating above kind of watching what was taking place. Then later, she committed a "passive" suicide (meaning she did not actually mean to take all those pills but didn't actively stop herself either) and I remember her telling me that there was just "nothing." I forgot how long she said she was pronounced clinically dead for, though. I think the two experiences were really confusing for her.  Either way, she still attends church regularly because her family was so into it, but I know the time she spent clinically dead really shook her up a bit. 

 

But if you've spent most of your life truly believing something and have some time to be even somewhat coherently aware of what is happening, I guess it really shouldn't be surprising that people would "see" Jesus at the "end." If the reward brain activity is truly somehow connected to the eyes, then wouldn't someone whose belief system truly believes they'll see Jesus/relatives at the end "see" them in a sense before ceasing existence? (Sorry, that got really convoluted- my way of life, lol)  

[midniterider]

 

Rejecting Christianity doesn't mean you have to reject spirituality.  Materialism is a sad philosophy, in my opinion.  But it's just that, a philosophy.  No one can prove that a spirit world does not exist.  I don't find it difficult to believe that I am a spirit being having a human experience.  I know my body will die, no doubt about that, but I believe my consciousness will continue living after physical death.  I believe I have an astral body.

Are you serious with this shit? No really. Just because something is "sad" doesn't make it false, for one. No one can prove that the spirit world does not exist. No one can prove that my cousin does not own an invisible taco truck that he garages on the far side of the moon in an invisible garage. Just because something can't be disproven doesn't mean it's real. Where are your critical thinking skills, man??

 

Why is it necessary to extend critical thinking skills concerning post death? I think it's enough to make final arrangements  ... but whether I think I stop consciousness or go to FSM heaven upon leaving this earth, what difference does it make? :-) None for me. 

[owen652]

I remember very clearly being on a family holiday (I think I was about six), when I kept asking my parents about death and they informed me that everybody dies eventually. 'Even me?' When they said yes, I was devastated and remember crying inconsolably about it. Some time later I adopted their religion and was convinced for thirty odd years that I could actually avoid death, even literally, if the good Lord tarried not. Then I deconverted and it was like I was six again, having my immortality taken away from me for the second time. Thanks a fucking lot, religion.  

 

I've never meditated before, but I'm about to start, and I'm hoping this will help me deal with this new paradigm.

[midniterider]

 

 

Rejecting Christianity doesn't mean you have to reject spirituality.  Materialism is a sad philosophy, in my opinion.  But it's just that, a philosophy.  No one can prove that a spirit world does not exist.  I don't find it difficult to believe that I am a spirit being having a human experience.  I know my body will die, no doubt about that, but I believe my consciousness will continue living after physical death.  I believe I have an astral body.

Are you serious with this shit? No really. Just because something is "sad" doesn't make it false, for one. No one can prove that the spirit world does not exist. No one can prove that my cousin does not own an invisible taco truck that he garages on the far side of the moon in an invisible garage. Just because something can't be disproven doesn't mean it's real. Where are your critical thinking skills, man??

 

The theory of materialism holds that the only thing that exists is matter or energy; that all things are composed of material and all phenomena (including consciousness) are the result of material interactions.

 

Materialism is a philosophy, and as far as I know, is just one of many philosophies.

 

I think that I am exercising my critical thinking when I think that materialism is not the only philosophy that exists, and that a reality outside of matter/energy probably exists.

 

Spirituality, after all, is part of the human experience.  None of us would be here having this discussion if it weren't for spirituality.  Unfortunately, almost all of us were extremely deceived by religion, and many of us equal religion with spirituality.

 

I'm convinced that spirituality exists.  Even on this board, there is a serious forum dedicated to it.  So it must be important.  There is no forum dedicated to Xenu, the Pink Unicorn or to your cousin's invisible taco truck inside an invisible garage behind the moon.

 

The existence of an immortal soul transcending the human body is among the most fundamental concepts of spirituality.  It's a very popular concept that is still being studied today.  I am not the one who made it up.

 

Since the OP addresses this question and expressed sadness in the face of mortality, all I do is mention that he might want to consider studying the concept of immortality and the human spirit.  I have been studying this, and it brings me much happiness.  There is a vast amount of literature on this subject and ideas a lot more interesting than what Christianity had to offer.

 

I think there's more to reality than just matter and energy though it may not make sense to think that way. I think the answer "I don't know, but it must be made up of matter and energy" is about as silly as saying "I dunno, but God did it." The "I don't know" part is correct...the rest is an assumption. I would rather put some of my eggs in the materialism basket and some in the idealism basket. Day to day living is obviously dealing with physical reality but is that really all there is? The fascinating part of life for me is not having all the answers and doing some magical thinking. :-)

[LifeCycle]

Are thoughts material?

[Vigile]

Are thoughts material?

 

Like software code, they need hardware to exist.  This is why I pretty much believe the 'we don't know what happens after we die' crowd are either just being diplomatic or are wishful thinkers.  We know enough about the brain to know that it is necessary in order for the concept of 'me' to exist.  I personally watched the 'her' that was once my grandmother slowly disappear as her Alzheimer's killed it and merely left her body around for a few more difficult years.  We don't have any illusions about what happens to the function of a computer after we drop a wrecking ball on it.  Why do we assume not just without any evidence, but against all available evidence, that the brain is somehow different? 

[Deva]

 

Rejecting Christianity doesn't mean you have to reject spirituality.  Materialism is a sad philosophy, in my opinion.  But it's just that, a philosophy.  No one can prove that a spirit world does not exist.  I don't find it difficult to believe that I am a spirit being having a human experience.  I know my body will die, no doubt about that, but I believe my consciousness will continue living after physical death.  I believe I have an astral body.

Are you serious with this shit? No really. Just because something is "sad" doesn't make it false, for one. No one can prove that the spirit world does not exist. No one can prove that my cousin does not own an invisible taco truck that he garages on the far side of the moon in an invisible garage. Just because something can't be disproven doesn't mean it's real. Where are your critical thinking skills, man??

 

I agree with Denyoz. Adopting a materialist philosophy is not necessary.

[florduh]

 

Adopting a materialist philosophy is not necessary.

I doubt that anyone just consciously decides one day that they want to be a (gasp!) materialist. As with atheism, it's a conclusion that some people must reach in light of the evidence (or lack of evidence). One cannot adopt any belief if he can find no reason to do so.

[Deva]

Florduh - the "gasp" materialist thing wasn't necessary.

 

It certainly doesn't shock or surprise me that many people do adopt it. 

 

As you say some people reach that conclusion, but not all.

[florduh]

 

 

Florduh - the "gasp" materialist thing wasn't necessary.

 

 

 

Well, it does get used as a pejorative at times, no?

 

 

 

As you say some people reach that conclusion, but not all.

 

 

Maybe, but I can't imagine people just deciding to adopt a belief or philosophy for no reason. Hell, if I could actually believe a thing just because I wanted to, I would choose to believe in magic.

 

[midniterider]

Are thoughts material?

 

I was googling "What is a thought" the other day and found someone who asked some questions regarding this. Not that I can find the link now, darnit. He was hesitant to say that thoughts are entirely just chemical reactions and electrical signals in our brain. He could not understand how chemicals and electrical signals could produce images in our head. You could push that question further and ask how brain chemicals and electrical signals could produce a three dimensional multisensory experience we call dreaming? The thimble full of articles I've read so far say something like "Well, the brain does yadda yadda..." They don't know how it does yadda yadda so I'm not sure why they assert this. It's a hypothesis in absence of a better one. And if you only allow yourself to think in terms of chemicals and electricity then your conclusion must be along the lines of chemicals and electricity.

 

Thoughts might be entirely just millions of chemical reactions and electrical signals in our brains but 'who' is watching that picture? Thoughts might exist outside and independent of the brain but the only way to know for sure would be to die and experience that directly yourself therefore we will probably never have any scientific data. That may or may not be important to you.

[Vigile]

[midniterider]

 

 

 

 

Florduh - the "gasp" materialist thing wasn't necessary.

 

 

 

Well, it does get used as a pejorative at times, no?

 

 

> 

As you say some people reach that conclusion, but not all.

 

 

Maybe, but I can't imagine people just deciding to adopt a belief or philosophy for no reason. Hell, if I could actually believe a thing just because I wanted to, I would choose to believe in magic.

 

 

 

I use 'materialist' as a pejorative the way others here use "magical thinking" as a pejorative. haha. :-)

[florduh]

 

Thoughts might be entirely just millions of chemical reactions and electrical signals in our brains but 'who' is watching that picture?

 

All we know for a fact is that material mechanisms in the organ known as the brain create and interpret thoughts and perceptions. We can cause them to be created and we can modify the results with chemical or electrical intervention. Normal brain physiology creates normal thought patterns, impaired or abnormal brain function creates a different result. It is easily demonstrated that physical matter creates everything we think or feel. If physical matter is absent, does something else take over that function? One would think that if consciousness or "mind" existed independently of our bodies, our brains would only have to interpret or act upon what our "real" self was telling us - but no, the brain itself actually creates thought and identity. While it is interesting and perhaps comforting to think we aren't dependent on the physical matter of our material bodies, observation of how the brain works indicates otherwise. For the record, I hope I have made an erroneous conclusion from the available data, but I don't see how.

[Kris]

Human beings have wanted to outsmart death since they came to realize that no one comes back once they die. For me, I find peace in knowing that I don't have to worry about facing an evil god that I refused to believe in, but rather my atoms return to the greater universe to be used as energy in some other form. I am ok with that.

[midniterider]

 

 

Thoughts might be entirely just millions of chemical reactions and electrical signals in our brains but 'who' is watching that picture?

 

All we know for a fact is that material mechanisms in the organ known as the brain create and interpret thoughts and perceptions. We can cause them to be created and we can modify the results with chemical or electrical intervention. Normal brain physiology creates normal thought patterns, impaired or abnormal brain function creates a different result. It is easily demonstrated that physical matter creates everything we think or feel. If physical matter is absent, does something else take over that function? One would think that if consciousness or "mind" existed independently of our bodies, our brains would only have to interpret or act upon what our "real" self was telling us - but no, the brain itself actually creates thought and identity. While it is interesting and perhaps comforting to think we aren't dependent on the physical matter of our material bodies, observation of how the brain works indicates otherwise. For the record, I hope I have made an erroneous conclusion from the available data, but I don't see how.

 

Good points, sir. It makes me want to read up on the brain, consciousness and awareness.

[Denyoz]

Maybe, but I can't imagine people just deciding to adopt a belief or philosophy for no reason. Hell, if I could actually believe a thing just because I wanted to, I would choose to believe in magic.

 

I agree with you, florduh.  A person who believes that immortality is humanly possible, must have good reasons.  I can give you my own reasons:

 

I believe that a spirit world exists because without it, nothing makes sense to me.  I need to make sense of my existence, my life, my experiences, to be healthy.  Materialism makes me sick, literally.  Spirituality makes sense to me.

 

In the universe, we have rocks and consciousness, and everything in between.  Materialism states that rocks are the primary substance of the universe.  Smash different types of rocks together with energy, long enough, and eventuality consciousness will appear.  Spirituality states that spirit (consciousness) is the primary substance of the universe.  That there is one great spirit which is a sort of living creative mind, within which everything we know exists.  Rocks and conscious beings can spring into existence magically or progressively within this universal mind, in ways we will never be able to undersand, unless we evolve spiritually.

 

Which theory makes more sense to you?  to me?  Which one came first, the chicken or the egg?  Rocks or consciousness?  Why does one theory make more sense to one person and not to the other?  What does "making sense" mean anyway?

 

The fact that we ask ourselves all these questions to me is a "sign" that we are not material beings.  A material being, like a computer, is satisfied with being material.  The "spirit" within man in not satisfied with the notion of being only material.  Everyone I know gives meaning to his own life.  "Giving meaning" is not something material objects are concerned with.

 

Look at everything that is around you right now, everything in the room.  All of it was "thought of" before it was created.  Everything.  A calculator will not be created by an explosive energy smashing rocks together randomly, even if this goes on for billions of years.  Thought always comes first, we know this.  For a thought to exist, there has to be a spirit behind it.  The material stuff comes last.

 

It's logical.  To me.  But I admit, I'm probably not as educated as most of you.  I graduated from high school, then one year of college, then spent the rest of my life reading spiritual books.   

[florduh]

 

Maybe, but I can't imagine people just deciding to adopt a belief or philosophy for no reason. Hell, if I could actually believe a thing just because I wanted to, I would choose to believe in magic.

 

I agree with you, florduh.  A person who believes that immortality is humanly possible, must have good reasons.  I can give you my own reasons:

 

I believe that a spirit world exists because without it, nothing makes sense to me.  I need to make sense of my existence, my life, my experiences, to be healthy.  Materialism makes me sick, literally.  Spirituality makes sense to me.

 

In the universe, we have rocks and consciousness, and everything in between.  Materialism states that rocks are the primary substance of the universe.  Smash different types of rocks together with energy, long enough, and eventuality consciousness will appear.  Spirituality states that spirit (consciousness) is the primary substance of the universe.  That there is one great spirit which is a sort of living creative mind, within which everything we know exists.  Rocks and conscious beings can spring into existence magically or progressively within this universal mind, in ways we will never be able to undersand, unless we evolve spiritually.

 

Which theory makes more sense to you?  to me?  Which one came first, the chicken or the egg?  Rocks or consciousness?  Why does one theory make more sense to one person and not to the other?  What does "making sense" mean anyway?

 

The fact that we ask ourselves all these questions to me is a "sign" that we are not material beings.  A material being, like a computer, is satisfied with being material.  The "spirit" within man in not satisfied with the notion of being only material.  Everyone I know gives meaning to his own life.  "Giving meaning" is not something material objects are concerned with.

 

Look at everything that is around you right now, everything in the room.  All of it was "thought of" before it was created.  Everything.  A calculator will not be created by an explosive energy smashing rocks together randomly, even if this goes on for billions of years.  Thought always comes first, we know this.  For a thought to exist, there has to be a spirit behind it.  The material stuff comes last.

 

It's logical.  To me.  But I admit, I'm probably not as educated as most of you.  I graduated from high school, then one year of college, then spent the rest of my life reading spiritual books.   

 

Actually, the comment about having a reason was in reference to my own conclusions. 

 

Honestly, spirituality makes more sense to me intuitively. However, I can understand why that is so. Making sense to me isn't a binding condition on reality.